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Kiba

[CF] Valkenhayn General Discussion Thread

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Just posting other things that are not mentioned here from the video on the previous page:

-You don't lose wolf meter when idle in wolf (so you won't lose meter doing w5A > w5 > w5C)

-The wolf gauge is notably longer.

-The wolf regain seems to freeze when Valk is inflicting human pressure and at some points, with combos?

-Impossible to followup midscreen 236C with 2C.

-Like Magaki said, new OH looks like a great starter. We would probably hit the 3.5k mark with an optimised combo.

-Like Jonakim said on twitter, the new wolf sfx sounds pretty gross.

 

Also, @Davidov07, I've taken care of the other thread. I'll make a new thread once there is arcade footage.

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Wolf regen freezing during hitstop has been a thing for a while. Became very noticeable in 1.1 tho.
You can easily notice that with moves that got big hitstop like 2C or 6B in CPE.

Also, looks like zoning is getting widely nerfed in CF. While it didn't really affect Valk that much due to his mobility, it could be quite expensive to get in against some characters because of that.
If some nerfs make it in the final version (Thinking mostly of Rachel, Nu and Haz), it will be much cheaper to RTSD in some matchups. Definetely something worth considering I would say.

Also heard that now, CT is much faster. That's some amazing news because our only uses for it in CPE was for FC 6B(1)>CT and corner Throw>CT combos. Maybe we will be able to find new routes using it.

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Hima posted a bunch of stuff on twitter from the loketest. https://twitter.com/hima696

Here is his evernote summary on valk, there's a bunch of information can't really make heads or tails out of most of it though.

https://www.evernote.com/shard/s633/sh/075bbf3e-5bce-476a-b987-90ced3ac7e4a/51cec5b2cc90dae9885ddf106786ab0a

https://www.evernote.com/shard/s633/sh/f378dee0-062d-49db-b1ca-555ff5eb4654/3e85fcfa8eec3b0e49d10c0dac041681

 

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Errol [url=https://www.evernote.com/shard/s613/sh/40252284-7e88-4e20-90c7-96c2f408554c/3bc6992cf5d5f4057a09c329413711a0]translated them

List of buffs and nerfs to make it easier to understand for the first post (And some clarifications about possible translation errors or mistakes Hima might have made. Comments are in parenthesis.):
+ = buff, - = nerf, ~=unconfirmed or neither.

In General:

~Combo rate might be the same in wolf and human

Wolf mode:

+Standing and walking forward doesn't consume wolf gauge (big buff to wolf footsies).
+Cooldown wolf>human reduced.
~Walking back uses as much wolf gauge as before while idle.
~Wolf command dashes uses the same amount as before (Fixed 10% depletion+bigger drain).
-Being in the air or using air options decrease the gauge further.
-Canons deplete gauge rapidly (Big nerfs to combos, corner carry and neutral movement).

Wolf moves:

+w236B floats more. w236B>6D>wjBA route is easier than before. (Interesting. Might allow longer human combos by delaying wjA)
+w214X make opponent fall slower allowing to combo afterwards with w5B. (Very interesting. If it's possible to combo afterwards to human mode, that's definetely a huge buff.)
+Wolf grab got more untech and can knockdown now. (Big buff midscreen)
+Air wolf grab wallbounces instead of a knockdown. Comboing afterwards could be possible.

~w214X changed from a spin state to a down on ground hit. (Was a down before so pretty sure it's a translation mistake and it now triggers spin state)
~Confirmed that after a w236A with S starters, 5B>2C is possible (Still important as a combo filler then.)

-w5A's P1 is worse
-w5C have a bigger knockback. w5C>brjA>h2C doesn't connect (had to be very close before which was rare anyway). Wolf loops could be harder. Unknown if it got a better float like 3C.
-w236A,wj236A,w236C,wj236C float less. w236C>wj236C now impossible. Same for wj236A>wj236C (no mention whether it's midscreen or in the corner.)
-Untech time on w236A and wj236A is reduced. wjBC>wj236A>wj236C drop. (Need more informations. canonjAC was guaranteed before so sounds more likely that it's not anymore if the combo is too long. Or could be due to the float nerf above. Big nerf either way to wolf canons into jC>Sturm.)


Human moves:

+3C easier to followup with. 3C>CT is possible. 3C>236C route easier.
+6A could float higher. (Could make 6A CH combo more consistent)
+6B new overhead. Gatling from 2A,5A and 2C and into 5D,4D and 2D. S starter with mediocre range but great proration leading to rewards as high as N starters combos. With examples being:

6B>D>[B>C>A cannons]>B>2C>(JB>JB>JC) (2750)
6B>D>[B>C>A cannons]>B>2C>(236B>1D>ACABC cannons> 214C) (3500) (Another translation mistake I assume)

+CT faster. Can combo from 3C and 2C(air hit) now. P2 not that great though (So uncharged CT no longer 100 P2 ? Makes it only useful for the long untech then)
+Air throw easier to follow up with midscreen.
+CA pushes the opponent farther/got more untech. (Great buff)
+236A more hitstun on CH. Frame advantage may be different.


~Old 6B is now 6C with old 6C being gone (Still more useful than 6C anyway).
Gatling now from 5C and into 3C. (Nice)
Now only +5 due to more recovery. (No longer a safe normal on meaty then)
Air hit 6C now has the second hit float upwards. (Kinda like Ignis 2D I guess)
~h4D animation changed. Better for spacing but no longer can cancel while airborne. Can be used to bait DPs. Cancel from 2A and 6B now. (Need to see it to forge an opinion but previous h4D was only useful in specific matchup for the angle it gave to w66D so sounds more like a buff)
~No idea what 236BB changes mean. Either it got a new animation or they changed what he says.
~j214B wallsticks with guaranteed KD in the corner but same untech midscreen. Hops forward making it easier to connect. P2 buffed. Either has more landing recovery or stays in the air longer making it harder to follow up.

-5C untech time reduced. 5C>wjA is tight midcombo but 5C>6C(old 6B) works on ground hit. No data on air hit.(This might be wrong mind you as 5C>jD>wjB doesn't combo already in Extend meaning that 5C>jD>wjA has to be done with either 1, 2 or 3 frames leniency when done early. So obviously, it becomes tight after a while.)
-236C pushes away further. Can't follow up with 2C anymore. Same untech as before.

Super:

+236236C got 1k minimum damage and 1380 in OD. (Probably mean both 236236C and wj236236C as both dealt 720 min dmg. If it concerns wj236236C, the min damage buff makes up for wj214B>wj214C>wj236236C loss)
+Sturm got around 1285 min damage.
+EA is a reversal but is harder to combo with than Sturm.

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Information from the recent loketest.

- wolf 236A/B/C ground and aerial versions have a little bit more untech time
- w.236A > 2C works from any starter
- w.236X spends a lot of wolf meter
- 3C > 236A > 2B probably works on every character
- j.214B is more useful now (lacks info)
- 6C has vacuum effect
- 236A has been buffed and is pretty good right now

All translations thanks to https://twitter.com/HiagoXYZ

 

 

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More stuff for those who haven't seen already (rough translation by Errol). Apologies if I wasn't accurate anywhere.

Neutral / Unknown

  • 6B: the overhead. gatlings to 5d,4d, long recovery if not canceled. nice return, but won't reach if they even barrier 2a>6B. Fast combo. on CH, even 2a won't combo, so autopilot 5d is probably the way to go
  • At the moment, JB>j214B seems good. on F starter this also isn't doable. in exchange, damage is up.  
  • J214b, moves up/forward when used, untech time increased, rather different. 
  • throw: in the middle of the screen, don't know what to do with it. in the corner, wall sticks so followup is easy.
  • himmel: without a cancel, can't follow up. on cancel, no wolf regen. if they don't tech, you can do the usual combo. air wolf throw though, can be followed up without canceling (wall bounces).
  • the way wolf works greatly changed

Buffs

  • 6a float increased. easy to follow up. 5c > air combo or 3c> rozen is rather stable
  • 6C: old 6b, only combos to 5a on stand, 2a on crouch. (vacuum effect buffed compared to last loketest - similar to CP. +5.)
  • 6C (old 6B) gatlings into 6B (The new overhead) (Before it was only 2A / 5A)
  • 6B (New Overhead) goes into 5K (Didn't see a combo specified / not really a 'buff' per se but w/e it's nice lol)
  • 3C: floats a lot, rather nice. 3c> rozen is rather stable. 
  • 3C> 236b(sweep one) can't remember what move this is or in the corner 3c>236A>2B possible
  • 236A: on ch, 5b and wolf ja connects. ch confirm 2b or wja is stable. untech and advantage frames decreased
  • Throw>236C>5c is possible?
  • sturm: min damage increased, does a lot. situation after is better.
  • air dd: damage increased. as usual still will sometimes only hit with a few hits instead of all.
  • CT system change seems to be rather nice for valk. Can use 2 CTs to aim for wolf gauge recovery.
  • neutral, walk forward uses no meter
  • wolf air DD: min dmg increased. Returns to CP in terms of spacing afterwards.

Nerfs

  • combo rate in wolf is lower
  • Human jC is an F starter now
  • on whiff, unable to do JA again? JA>barrier not possible.
  • 236c: float is rather up/forward. in the center of the screen, 2c/5c not possible
  • air throw: midscreen where you are, they wall bounce back to you - in the corner, also wall sticks
  • Wolf meter is very important in this version so we should look into CT combos.
  • 5D head invuln gone?
  • w5C: knockback increase. 5C>br ja > Human 2C, 5C>brake 5C will not connect if you are a bit back, OR on guard.
  • -cannons: untech significantly decreased, float is lower (except for B version). Uses a lot of meter. Air cannons also have untech time decreased, unable to pick them back up from the ground in the corner. Compared to prev loketest, A cannon's float is even lower. attack level is 3, apparently.
  • aizen: on hit, they briefly enter spin down state. Able to pick them back up from the ground (i.e. aizen> w5B), but uses so much meter that it's hard to know what to use it for. as a combo ender, +F is increased. Using multiple aizens requires delay, so just by that it uses a lot of meter.
  • the way wolf works greatly changed
  • wolf gauge increased in length -> penalty time when you run out accordingly increased
  • jump, air dash, backstep, walking back uses meter
  • gesh and rasen unchanged
  • cannon and aizen use meter, same amount as the according distance by gesh.

 

Others:

Hima: Says new Valk has a lot of potential and that Valk is not dead. Also he's coming back to CF with Valk.

Souji: Says he doesn't think Valk is as weak as people are saying.

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Linking the recent Hima matches to back up some interesting stuff or applications:

hjB>djB>j214B ender. Looks much more interesting for both oki and wolf gain because jC pushes the opponent down on air hit meaning they land before you. Not really something that bring significant advantage but it's definetely welcome.
Also keep in mind this whole combo was done on a S STARTER. Not sure about the combo time being shorter but for Valk, it's definetely longer than before.
Either the combo time is actually longer OR they buffed Valk's untech time on several move.
w5A>w5C(645)>6D>wjA(750)>5B(919)>5C(1145)>jB(1283)>j214B(1459)>9D>wjB>(1563)>wjA(1601)>5B(1668)>2C(1700~)>hjB(1800)>djB(1845)>j214B(1862)

Used up ~35% wolf gauge at a glance which is pretty damn good.

Finally for the ender, I will guess that h8jBB214B won't really put us in the perfect distance to make rolls land right before us so we might have to walk backward a bit instead which is not really an issue and give slightly more wolf gauge back.

6B's horizontal range is bigger than it looks like.

Not something new in CF but 5B>IAD wjB>(wjC) looks like an interesting option if the opponent respect in the corner. Never thought about that before.

Near corner air throw still unstable it seems. 5C could have probably worked though.

2A>2A>6B on barrier block makes 6B whiff.

I might be wrong mind you but doesn't it look like we got our old 13f backdash back ? Can't really magically count frames with the naked eye but it looks like that's the case to me.

5B>5C>236B>236B (2017)
Pretty sure we do slightly less in CPE.

Airhit 236A>6D>wjA is a thing midscreen

6B is air unblockable. Need to air barrier block it.

Looks like air super does around 1k min damage now. So they removed the min damage buff change on Sturm but kept the air super buff.
Before, the air super min damage was 160+160+400 for 720 min damage. Now, it looks like it's 200+200+600 so 1k min damage.

Valk's EA for people who didn't see it

Airdashing in wolf looks like it removes like what, 5% wolf gauge ? Was expecting something worse. Hardly a reason to stop using w66D.

Same min damage than humain air super on wolf air super

wj214X still has long untech time to get a knockdown from really high

If j214B>9D>jD>jC works, the untechable time midscreen is much bigger than in CPE then

Very interesting route. Too bad he dropped it

 

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5C>6C gatling though, that sounds more like something we will use to extend ground combo rather than for pressure unless the pushback is reduced. Minor but still a buff.

2B makes Azrael's DP whiff

brjA makes it whiff too ?! Shit tier DP confirmed. If spacing is all we need to make it whiff, okizeme will be particularly easy against him pushing the matchup in our favour.

3C>236B ground hit works Saw it a few times but didn't remember right away that was a thing. Anyway, 3C>236B combo on ground hit when you needed air hit before. Might be either because 3C floats higher or 236B is faster.

air hit 2C>CT works. This can be a very very interesting way to go straight afterwards into 5D>w5C>wolf canons combo for high damage.

 

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Hi all, just curious on something. Now that we've got to try Valk in the Jap demo for CF whats people's opinion on him? Even tho I'm new to him (Just started learning him near the end of CPEX) I think he's still very solid in this version.

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57 minutes ago, DaRealZil said:

Hi all, just curious on something. Now that we've got to try Valk in the Jap demo for CF whats people's opinion on him? Even tho I'm new to him (Just started learning him near the end of CPEX) I think he's still very solid in this version.

He's still pretty good, but generally harder to use, especially when it comes to wolf meter management. A lot of things consume more meter than useful so human has to be a lot more, for oki in particular. Apart from that, he's basically the same.

 

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Been a while since I've been active on DL. Glad to see Kiba is still around.
Anyway, here are my thoughts so far.

Wolf mode itself:
6D now consumes as much wolf gauge during startup than 4D;7D,8D and 9D. Big nerf.
I first thought that the wolf usage while airborne was responsible but no, it's really the 6D you use beforehand that is responsible for the noticeable wolf gauge consumption during our basic combo routes.

Hitstun nerf on w236A seemed pretty big to me but it's actually not because brjA>w5C>w236A>5D>3C>236C still works just fine in the corner. It might be a problem if done very late in the combo though without canceling it into another wolf canon.
Another thing was that w236A>5D>5C isn't a thing anymore which was the cheapest sideswap combo we had wolf gauge wise.
However, now brjA>w5C>w236A>5D>3C>236C>5B>jBBC (2048 dmg) is a thing midscreen and is much stabler than in CPE so that might be our go-to sideswap combo off an S starter midscreen now.
w236A hitstun nerf barely affects us considering those points.

wjA same proration as w5A. Great buff.
wjAA and wjAAA back to having 100 proration. They gave it the same proration as wjA in CPE. Minor buff.

Noticeable base damage increase in wolf mode. Same with human mode actually. However, every characters got more health so would need to compare if the base damage increase results in higher damage compared to before or lower ones based on the % of health the combos remove.

Wolf canon combos feel very wonky to me now. They also consume a ton of wolf gauge now. Would need to experiment with it more to see if the wolf gauge less is worth it or not. In CPE, the damage you dealt on some starters compared to the gauge you lost was so worth it that you had little reason to not use them unless you simply wouldn't have enough for mixups afterwards.
P2 seem to be down too somehow ? It does a whooping 1000 base damage now but the P2 is just awful. We might be back to CP1.0 wolf canons P2-wise. Can't tell and don't know how to calculate it.

Airdash use up more wolf gauge but only slightly more. An IAD and a jump forward both uses up the same amount now even though the jump forward is in the air slightly longer due to wolf having the highest base jump in the game. Minor change and doesn't change much to be honest.

h4D got a big recovery increase. Can't do h4D>w66D and stuff like that anymore. It's just a tool to position yourself now.

Now for more technical stuff.
Seems that wjA now pushes back father on air hit and not as high as it did. Routes such as brjA>w5C>6D>wjA>5D>5B>2C>jB>djDABA>run w5B or 5D>5B afterwards worked on Ragna but not Litchi so what was universal is now character specific. Will make a list later but this might be our go-to combo now with S starters midscreen. Deal less damage than hj214B>9D wjBA routes but consumes less wolf gauge while offering corner carry.

brjA/w5A>w5C>6D>wjA>5D>5B>2C>jB>djDABA>5D>5B>5C>jBBC (1761)

Same thing with brjA>w5C>6D>wjA>slight run w5B>wjAABA though it deals less damage.

Wolf grab>drive cancel midscreen is very interesting though. Big nerf however for wolf grab in the corner. But you could get 3,5k in CPE before so that was way too good hahaha.

----------------------------------

Human mode:
6C and 6B change drastically reduces the time we can stay on the ground to combo though, we can use 236A and loop it for N starter to get more back.

Noticeable base damage increase on a lot of his moves.

236C pushing farther means that stuff such as Throw>236C>5C>jB>djDABA>follow up etc doesn't work anymore because they are pushed too far away. Or might be character specific.

New 6B is amazing but the horizontal is awfully short.

Can't manage to link 6C>5A on standing. 6C>2A on crouching works just fine. Wasn't it supposed to be +5 ? 5A should link if it's still 6f startup. Unless it's +4 but in that case, 2A shouldn't hit unless it's 6f startup instead of 7f like before. Will run some tests I guess to figure it out later.
Can't find much use for 5C>6C so far.

6C(1)>delay 3C>236C seem to be a thing. Could be interesting.

3C had same prorations as 2C and 5C in CPE but now, it's back to being slightly worse than the two latters.

jC was supposed to be an S starter in the loketest but is back to being an N starter now. Can do stuff like jC>RC>jC>5C>6C>3C>236B~236B>1D4CA>etc

Rewards on jC>RC seem better than in CPE.

Not a fan of the new CT mechanics. Add way less damage than before. Might not be worth it anymore except for 6C(1) FC>CT combos.

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I haven't played valkenhayn in other versions of the game, but I'm trying to play him now. What I noticed is when I do a wolf 6D in the air and go on the other side, the diagonal inputs and horizontal inputs get reversed in game. I assumed the game would realize that I'm on the other side so the wolf directions should be flipped. So when I crossover, 2D and 8D are the same, but when I hold that 6D, if I press d itll be 4D, which will make the wolf flip and dash. Unfortunately, it does the 6D animation on the other side. I felt that was weird. So I tried it again and auto corrected myself and did a 6D and it give the roll then dash, 4D. Basically when I do a 6D in the air and go on the other side, (from being on right side to being on left side) if I input 4d, I get 6D. I I put 3D, I'll get a dash close to opponent. If I auto correct and 1d, I'll be away from the opponent. If I 9D, I'll get a 7D. And if I do a 7d, I'll get a 9D. If you guys got confused on what I was saying I made a video to show my inputs as well to show what I was doing.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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2 hours ago, _WhoisAnt said:

I haven't played valkenhayn in other versions of the game, but I'm trying to play him now. What I noticed is when I do a wolf 6D in the air and go on the other side, the diagonal inputs and horizontal inputs get reversed in game. I assumed the game would realize that I'm on the other side so the wolf directions should be flipped. So when I crossover, 2D and 8D are the same, but when I hold that 6D, if I press d itll be 4D, which will make the wolf flip and dash. Unfortunately, it does the 6D animation on the other side. I felt that was weird. So I tried it again and auto corrected myself and did a 6D and it give the roll then dash, 4D. Basically when I do a 6D in the air and go on the other side, (from being on right side to being on left side) if I input 4d, I get 6D. I I put 3D, I'll get a dash close to opponent. If I auto correct and 1d, I'll be away from the opponent. If I 9D, I'll get a 7D. And if I do a 7d, I'll get a 9D. If you guys got confused on what I was saying I made a video to show my inputs as well to show what I was doing.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

this is common in fighting games like for example in guilty gear when you use bedman's forward HS you have to use a 214 + button move to do a 236 + button action since the game still has you facing right.

in this instance you use inputs as if your facing right and its more notable in the vid you shown since you don't see valkenhayn turn around and hes facing right so his inputs is still as if hes facing right.

Also if your just trying out valk now Kiba wrote up a wicked guide that I went through back during vanilla CP and his game plan hasn't changed since then and its a really good read to learn the character more.

 

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I'm having a hard time anti-air-ing people in general, while I'm playing. Also, characters with long range normals (Es, Mai, Amane, etc.) are giving me a hard time. Does anyone else have a problem with those characters as well?

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