The Good, the Bad, and Ugly as Hell Baiken Matchups

[qwerty]

Hi. I play Johnny, but I fight a lot of Baiken players.

I think Baiken struggles pretty bad against Johnny now. I might go as far as to say 6-4 for Johnny.

In AC, the match was basically even; Johnny had the advantage of range and the ability to bait counters with good spacing, and Baiken had the advantage of reducing Johnny to one move blockstrings.

In +R, however, I feel that the scales have tipped pretty heavily in Johnny's favor. The reasons for this being:

- Faster Mist Cancels: Makes baiting counters that much easier.

- Faster Forward Dash: Makes throwing you that much easier.

- Upcoin: You already had to worry about anti-air coin any time you jumped against Johnny, now you have to worry about another coin arc that beats some otherwise convenient jump-in arcs.

- Mid Mist Finer: This really seals the deal. It's a poke, it's an anti-air, it's a way to beat counters, and now it scores knockdown. Just because Johnny didn't immediately Mist Cancel that 5H you just blocked doesn't mean you should feel free to Sakura him for it; you may just eat a Mist Finer to the face.

This is and always has been a very spacing specific matchup, so if I were a Baiken player I'd figure out ways to avoid getting hit by Mid MF at every range you can think of (at neutral as well as in blockstrings). This is easier said than done to be sure, since we're talking about a move that hits slightly further than Johnny's f.S and doesn't extend his hurtbox.

Figured I'd share my thoughts since I know how scarce discussion like this is lately, and I have a good amount of experience fighting this character now so I feel somewhat qualified to comment.

[kaeru]

Thanks for the awesome post qwerty !

I personally don't have enough matches in +R to add much to the discussion, though I do want to add one thing to your breakdown.

Baiting Baiken's counters in +R is significantly different now. Sakura especially can be done entirely during hitstop. If you present a high level blocked attack like 5H, even if you intend to cancel it, Baiken will be able to to hit you (assuming you are in range) during the hitstop, before the cancel opportunity arrives. In AC Sakura was very slow, but invincible, so there were ways to cancel out of attacks to make it whiff or to block it in time.

One more thing I want to mention is how similar to Johnny's new up coin, Baiken's new guard cancel: Zakuro, makes a lot more matchups easier because it's a lot harder to jump in on her with long range air pokes that would otherwise beat her traditional 6P anti-air. In the few matches I have played against our resident Johnny player, I have felt this has helped me quite a bit.

Being able to grab Baiken faster is absolutely invaluable, so this must be a great asset for Johnny indeed !!

I hope that's useful !

Edited January 7, 2014 by kaeru

[qwerty]

Yeah, I mentioned in the Johnny forums that the anti-air alpha counter is stupid strong against any jump-in. Johnny's only real answer in that situation is to immediately KJ FRC and block, since I don't think it's punishable due to the blockstun.

Re: Sakura, I took a look at the frame data (didn't know it was translated until now), and it is indeed possible to do Sakura entirely during hitstop. I'll have to do some testing of my own to see exactly how Mid MF beats it, but I have seen it done. Maybe Johnny was just out of range, but it looked like he was in range and possibly moved his hurtbox back via Mist Cancel. Again, to be tested.

I guess I should also clarify that Johnny's forward dash isn't just faster, it also travels further. So now you have to worry about dash -> throw at the range Johnny typically likes to 2S at.

[Star-Demon]

Wait

Wait

Wait

I can GC while being hit?

[kaeru]

Wait

Wait

Wait

I can GC while being hit?

Just to clarify:

Hitstun -> the flinching state a character is in after getting hit

Blockstun -> the time locked in blocking state after blocking an attack

Hitstop -> the time where the game is completely frozen after an attack connects (block or hit)

Baiken's guard cancels are activatable on hitstop, while the game is supposed to be frozen in time. That's the only reason why she ever hit anyone in accent core with Sakura, despite it being ridiculously slow. The lowest level attacks in guilty gear have an 11 frame hitstop, and the hitstop grows as the level of attack increases. 5H is a high level attack, therefore more hitstop. There are some moves that have special, reduced hitstop, especially multi-hit moves.

Projectiles are special, and are very risky to guard cancel against, because only the defender is stuck in hitstop. The attacker and the game timer both continue as normal during the hitstop of a projectile.

No you can't GC while getting hit, but you can GC while in hitstop from blocking.

Edit: qwerty, it's very possible that the reason why you've seen it beat is because it's actually a bit difficult to perform the full guard cancel during hitstop because it requires buffering the input early. If Baiken tries to react and guard cancel, she may already be out of time when the move comes out.

Edited January 8, 2014 by kaeru

[Dragonage2ftw]

On 1/8/2014 at 11:50 AM, kaeru said:

 

Just to clarify:

 

Hitstun -> the flinching state a character is in after getting hit

 

Blockstun -> the time locked in blocking state after blocking an attack

 

Hitstop -> the time where the game is completely frozen after an attack connects (block or hit)

 

Baiken's guard cancels are activatable on hitstop, while the game is supposed to be frozen in time. That's the only reason why she ever hit anyone in accent core with Sakura, despite it being ridiculously slow. The lowest level attacks in guilty gear have an 11 frame hitstop, and the hitstop grows as the level of attack increases. 5H is a high level attack, therefore more hitstop. There are some moves that have special, reduced hitstop, especially multi-hit moves.

 

Projectiles are special, and are very risky to guard cancel against, because only the defender is stuck in hitstop. The attacker and the game timer both continue as normal during the hitstop of a projectile.

 

No you can't GC while getting hit, but you can GC while in hitstop from blocking.

 

 

Edit: qwerty, it's very possible that the reason why you've seen it beat is because it's actually a bit difficult to perform the full guard cancel during hitstop because it requires buffering the input early. If Baiken tries to react and guard cancel, she may already be out of time when the move comes out.

That seems really good.