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JoshuaVv

Hazama CF Loke test info/speculation/changes

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As of 7/18/2015

- Ouroboros now only has 1 stock.

- Gasaishou deals 2 hits and 600 damage, launches the opponent upwards.
- Orochi's last hit wall-bounces.
- Green Ressenga doesn't bounce on air hit.
- After using an Ouroboros follow-up, it's impossible to follow it up with other attacks for a while.
- New Jagai special staggers at least on ground normal hit and automatically goes into Jasetsu. You can mix up with Jagai > Zaneiga/Ressenga: though there is a jab-wide gap, Ressenga beats 2A and Zaneiga beats 5A. A combo goes something like 2A 5B 5C Jagai Ressenga/Zaneiga 2A 5B 5C Jagai into ender.
- Since the throw after 5C 5DD j.2DD is purple now, it's possible that the guard stun on close-range Ouroboros is longer now.
- You go into Active Flow by landing 6A three times.
- Green Ressenga now forces crouching, connects into 5C.
- No changes to OD Mizuchi.
- You can score about 3400 damage from a green Zaneiga, might get better with research.
- You can follow up Gasaishou with both B and C moves.
- Almost all normal cancels into Jasetsu are gone now. Instead of that, most normals can cancel into Jagai.
- If Ressenga hits, it makes the opponent stick to the ground, so you can follow it up with C moves.
- CH 3C still connects into Zaneiga, so feel free to practice CH 3C 66 Zaneiga in CP.
- It's just a hunch, but it feels that Jameijin's untech time is shorter than Hirentotsu's.
- If you land j.C too high, it might not be possible to follow up with Jameijin.
- Ouroboros's length is now infinite, so it can go outside of the screen.

- Ouroboros only has 1 stock, which is consumed by using any follow-ups.

- If you have no stock, you can still use follow-ups on hit or block, though you do not recover it in that case.
- The stock recovers after about 3 seconds, even if you are in the air.
- In OD, the stock recovers automatically, and you can use as many follow-ups as you want.

 

Thank you, SoWL for translating. 

 

I think it's safe to say Hazama, at least according to these changes, has been nerfed, but not badly. Stock coming back in 3 seconds regardless of in air or on ground isn't too bad, but what that does mean, is unless we hit the opponent every time we throw a chain, we can't follow up, which restricts shenanigans quite a bit. Also unable to stance off most normals hurts our mix-up quite a bit, since it'll be easier to predict. Jagai, seems like it's gonna be acting as a big "WARNING, I'M ABOUT TO DO STANCE STUFF" which really sucks as far as mind-games and predictability comes in. I guess, if we really want, we can also use a close D, cancel into stance and try stuff that way, if the guardstun is long enough. Speaking of D, it being infinite seems like a bad thing overall, because if it truly IS infinite, that probably means we NEED to use A to cancel it, doesn't it? Maybe it's set by a timer and not just length.

 

Combo potential, and damage, however seems like it'll be as good as ever. I mean 3.4 off charged Zaneiga is less than usual, but still plenty good. Ressenga sticking probably helps it overall, since it seems you can follow up with 5C green or no, but it can't be prefaced with a hit Jagai? Though, if 3C CH> Charged Zaneiga still works, we might still be able to do something off Gashōkyaku. Even just a hungry coils (english name ftw) would be decent for position purposes.

 

So, overall there certainly seems to finally be some REAL steps in nerfing Hazama rather than just a bunch of horizontal sliding and hidden buffs. However, I think, with where we're at now, he'll still be plenty viable. It'll just be harder opening people up.

 

Thoughts?

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One thread for Haz loketest info? Convenient.

Hazama:

Air throw bounces them higher, maybe?

Raw stance-A > 5C works.

Stance-B sends them flying further away.

stuff > 6C > 5D > stance-A > 5C works.

Also, this:

- If you have no stock, you can still use follow-ups on hit or block, though you do not recover it in that case.

Do not recover it? So in otherwords can't retract chain even if you hit them without stock?

And then we have

- After using an Ouroboros follow-up, it's impossible to follow it up with other attacks for a while.

So no more pressing J.A etc to cut chains short...We'll have to commit.

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Also, this:

- If you have no stock, you can still use follow-ups on hit or block, though you do not recover it in that case.

Do not recover it? So in otherwords can't retract chain even if you hit them without stock?

 

No, I think they mean it goes like this: no stock> throw chain> hit> get stock> follow up> lose stock. 

 

It's basically how it's always worked.

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That thing about 214da beating 2a and 214dc beating 5a doesn't make sense, i mean, that's how it works already when cancelling from C normals, 214da is low invul and 214dc is fast enough to not let you mash.

 

I don't think not having cancellable stance from every normal is going to be that big of a deal... even good jp players get hit by stuff like 3c 214da from time to time, and Hazama's pressure has always been more about throw/strike/6A than mashing on stance and dealing no damage off 214da, but we'll see, it's just the first loke test!

 

I don't really like how the new chain seems to work, but still I've never been fan of just throwing around chains in neutral and flying around without any clear direction and I felt 3 chains to play around with were just too much but idk, what scares me is "After using an Ouroboros follow-up, it's impossible to follow it up with other attacks for a while." does that mean we can't do chains > "empty" jA and stop our momentum? if that's so then that's a HUGE nerf, like, the worst nerf he has ever gotten and that's definitely something that would cripple his ability to be any good.

 

meh, I really wanted that new move to be some sort of playstyle-altering-kind of move, instead it's just a tool to get into stance, zzz

hopefully they changed something about 6B, ever since it was nerfed from +3 adv to +1 adv that move became even more useless.

 

edit: hountejin has no invul anymore but comes out faster, thats an ok trade off, I wish it could travel further too (3c > whiff hountejin ; ;)

the new move does not force you into stance, that's pretty good if it's + on block.

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RIP 2a tick super cmd grab, etc. 

@_Sey I know right? Gives us teleporting Houtenjin  :v: Also Houtenjin trading its invul for faster startup, does that means we will be seeing less trading against other normals and other chars' safejump not working anymore?

 

Chain being unlimited length is pretty what. If only chain was faster then it'll be good.

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They probably made the chain's range infinite so we can't just let it extend and come back on its own without using up a stock like in CPEX. Unless A cancel is free again, which would totally make sense, since if you whiff a chain and retract it you'll always be chainless for three whole seconds.

We'll see how this goes, I don't want to start crying about nerfs this soon anyway. The extra recovery on the followups though... Pachi pls.

It's not even about nerfs or buffs. It's about the character being interesting. Whiffing normals/airthrow to cancel momentum has always been super fun, and resulted in some "gambling" between the Hazama and the opponent which made things interesting. If we can't do that now... I guess we'll have to pray they don't just stand there and wait to AA us every single time (which is what -will- happen mind you).

 

I'd take CS2/EX meterless damage and CP meter gain over shitty boring chains any day, even if that meant him dropping in the tiers. No more crippling for the sake of "balance" a la Ramlethal pls ;_;

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- Ouroboros's length is now infinite, so it can go outside of the screen.

I was thinking about this for awhile and what if I do e.g. 2D~B with my back against the corner and then j.5/8D, does this mean I can stay in the air forever?

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^ It might be a viable timer scam option, but if I must land afterwards I might be eating full combo

This is what's crazy about the 1 chain deal since here you cannot do a followup on the second chain to go to a safer spot

 

with SMP on normals gone, will CS2 style 6C loop come back?

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Oh man, that would be fun. The damage still suffers, but if we can just use it for set-ups for chain/5C, then it would still be great.

 

Edit: Just read that normals aren't at all effected by SMP, so I guess it would depend. I'm gonna assume it'll end up something like it did in CSE more than anything. I doubt they'd give us back CS2 craziness, as fun as it was.

 

Although it's making Hazama sound more and more combo centric than chainy, which honestly sounds kinda boring. Although going for time scams would be hilarious like that. Makes me wonder if we could just poke someone real quick then fly off and sit there the entire time. All the more reason to think the chain is gonna be changed, but it's a funny thought regardless.

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Wanna know what other character was really good at going for time outs?

 

CS1 Rachel.

:vbang:

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Combo potential, and damage, however seems like it'll be as good as ever. I mean 3.4 off charged Zaneiga is less than usual, but still plenty good.

1k nerf is pretty big. It might just be a worse starter than it was before though.

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SKD provided some new infos from the recent loketest. 

Hazama: He has 2 chains again!! Wow!! Chains on no cancel have less recovery, but they don’t cause stock regen on block (yes. yes. i have waited years for this). A cancel still causes him to lose a stock. He can’t do level 1 moves from stance without doing the new special first (which puts him into stance, but doesn’t have a lot of range, so I dunno) making it very obvious when he can act after going into stance (fuck yeah). Command throw damage is up now, he gets like 2.2kish. Still stance nerf is pretty big lol. Coupled with the stock nerf, I dunno where he’d stand. Big nerfs though, IMO? Fighting against him, those were his most threatening points, so its relieving to see that gone, but it’s funny that his command throw is better than Bullet’s, lol.

Source: http://www.teamstickbug.com/2015/08/26/skds-closed-loketest-bbcf-info-and-impressions-writeup/

 

tl;dr ver:

  • 2 stocks again
  • No stock regen on block
  • Normals cancelling into stance pressure gone. Replaced with normals > Jagai > Stance (known)
  • Cmd throw dmg buff

 

 

Hey guys, we have footage of BBCF Hazama. 
Vid: https://youtu.be/MqiK8mtWky8?t=9m7s

 

Another one: https://youtu.be/w2EezZKXxkU?t=16m

 

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yeah B follow up is different for sure

jagai > a stance has a big enough gap for ragna to poke out with 5B...

no chain regen on block or when airborne (they never did, I'm just mentioning it as something that would have been interesting to see if implemented along no regen on block), stance mixup gone... fuck this character lol

I don't understand how they want us to play Hazama, he has gotten quite a few archetype changes over the years and nerfs/buffs have always been all over the place... oh well, we'll see.

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Imo, he's just feel the same as usual lol besides the stance mixup nerf gdi. Nerfing chain and what not, once we adapt we will be fine.

Also, I just managed to caught the last stream of the day and luckily a Hazama came on. I saw 3C > Jagai bounces on hit into stance B in corner since 3C puts the opponent airborne so there's that. Probably works midscreen too like stuff > 3C > Jagai > 214D~66B and random AA CH 5B/5C for some real damage or a stable and better damage AA 2C combo route.

Another thing I think 3C > Jabaki tumbles or slides the opponent. Not really sure about this. Going to wait for some helpful guys who managed to record the streams and reupload it in order to check it out.

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The other day, based @HiagoXYZ tl-ed some more info on BBCF Hazama. It's a pretty long list. Putting them here for those who might have missed it. 

  • Because of the ouroboros change, it's harder to define when you're getting back chain stocks
  • Any chain follow-up uses a stock; one stock is regenerated on hit; stocks regen after around 4 round counters
  • 236A slides on hit; can follow up on corner hit with dash 5C; can be canceled into Mizuchi
  • Jameijin (j.214B): small hitbox to the point you whiff if you attempt doing j.8C x5 > j.214B
  • Jagai (214B): New move; forcefully enters in stance afterwards regardless of hit or whiff; 214B > 66 Gashoukyaku > dash 5A works
  • 236C: blows opponent upwards on hit now; can follow up with 5C or 2C; deals 600 damage
  • 623D: switches sides even if you're glued to the corner; SMP only applies to damage now so using it twice for a Mizuchi ender is ok
  • Ressenga: can follow it up with 2A on crouch hit
  • Gashoukyaku: can follow it up with dash 5A if you use stance 66 before it
  • Gashoukyaku (cont): On air hit you can't follow up midscreen (too far away for anything)
  • Zaneiga: Floats a bit on both ground and air hits; probably can't follow it up with anything normally
  • green Ressenga: hard knockdown on hit; can follow it up with 2B or 5C
  • green Gashoukyaku: now a single hit move; flies off in 9 direction; can follow it up with 623D and even 6D on ground hit
  • green Zaneiga: floats quite a bit on hit; can follow it up with a variety of moves
  • j.214B > Jayoku works on a grounded opponent; on Tager j.214B > 2A works
  • last loketest, j.214B had a clean hit property but not sure if it's still in
  • 236A can be followed up with dash 5B and 214B (probably corner only? not specified)
  • Jayoku dmg: 2100 normal/2750 OD
  • Mizuchi dmg: 2442 normal/2789 OD
  • Orochi dmg: 2553 normal/3009 OD
  • 3Cch > instant CT > 5C > 2C > 4D~A > 2D~D > j.Cx2 > j.Cx5 > j.214B: 3080dm
  • 3Cch > bit charged CT > 5C > 2C > 4D~A > 2D~D > j.Cx2 > j.Cx5 > j.214B: 3786dm
  • 5C > Jayoku > instant CT > 5C > 2C > 4D~D > j.Cx2 > dj.Cx5 > j.214B: about 3750dm
  • 5C > Jayoku > fully charged CT > 5C > 2C > 4D~D > j.Cx2 > dj.Cx5 > j.214B: about 4650dm
  • point blank 5C > 6C combo part has been whiffing a lot for some reason
  • 2C floats less on CH; harder to follow it up
  • 6C floats less on air hit so following it up with 6D is a no-no; you can follow it up midscreen with 5D; corner with 5B or 5C
  • 6A gave 10 meter at once on hit

6A buff. Jayoku dmg buff abit, not sure about the other two DDs. 

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More Hazama translations by based @HiagoXYZ

Spoiler

 

- OD: You can use D follow-ups even with 0 stocks. However, if you've got 1~2 stocks and use a follow-up, you'll spend it even in OD

- You can use follow-ups at will during OD, but can't use more than 2. Once you try to use a third one, it won't come out but it seems like the count resets once you land. Stocks won't regen once you land, though.

- OD's hp drain aura might be draining faster

- 5C might have less untech time; floats opponent way more on air hit

- 2C CH is untechable until landing on both ground and air hit

- 2C CH doesn't make opponent fly away as much; easy to combo afterwards

- 6A gives less meter on hit (from 10 to 6); still has bonus proration

- 6C causes stagger on normal hit; can be followed up with 5D; bounces less on air hit so following it up with 6D is impossible

- air hit 6C can be followed up midscreen with 5D/corner with 5B and 5C; can ouroboros cancel even on block (unconfirmed)

- j.C doesn't lift up the opponent in a weird way when it hits like it does in CP2; enemy doesn't fly away on 5th hit anymore

- You can't delay j.C hits anymore. If you try to delay, say, the 3rd hit after hitting the 2nd one, it won't come out.

- 214B (Jagai): New move; automatically goes into Jasetsu afterwards on hit or whiff; super long stagger on CH

- j.214B (Jameijin): New move; hitbox is smaller so if your height is wrong you could whiff this move

- j.214B gives hard knockdown on ground hit, could follow it up with Jayoku

- j.214B is either a bit - or a bit + on block (varies by height); bounces on CH

- 236A can't be canceled into Jasetsu on hit anymore; slides down on air hit now

- 236A's knockback increased so you need dash 5B/5C to follow it up in the corner; less recovery than last loketest

- 236C deals 600 damage now; throws opponent upwards on hit; can be followed up with 5C or 2C

- 214D only works for powered-up ver. of follow-ups now (you need to do Jagai first for the normal ver. of those moves)

- You can still stance cancel or cancel into command throw super while in 214D stance

- Ressenga normal hit is reverted to CP1.1's; can be followed up with 2A on crouch hit; powered-up ver. gives hard knockdown

- Gashoukyaku makes opponent fly a bit farther away than 236C; can follow up with dash 5A if you use stance dash beforehand

- Both ground and air ver. of Gashoukyaku work the same on hit (it was different in the last loke)

- Powered-up ver. doesn't deal more damage after stance dash anymore; only hits once now; can be followed up with 6D on ground hit

- Zaneiga has slower startup (around same as 1.1?) and increased recovery; has body invul now

- Normal ver. Zaneiga floats a bit on hit, no follow-ups on normal hit/CH hit can be followed up with 5C etc

- Powered-up Zaneiga seems the same as 2.0

- Jayoku startup is much faster; FCs now; normal ver. has no invul (not sure about OD ver); normal ver. 1910 dmg/OD ver. 2100 dmg

That's about it for Hazama. There's a fuckton of combos in the link below and I'm not translating all of it. https://www.evernote.com/shard/s470/sh/c5c22850-d310-4e83-9c1f-2091ba368247/48ce95f248ffbb5a81db11e61de55617

 

 

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2C buff is good.

Lol at jC changes again since BBCP  (yet people still manages to find a way to do it), they really don't want us to do jC loop for good eh?

 >j.214B gives hard knockdown on ground hit, could follow it up with Jayoku. 
Not sure how it will work in practise, stuff > 2C > TK Jameijin and hope it hits someone mashing?

> 214D only works for powered-up ver. of follow-ups now (you need to do Jagai first for the normal ver. of those moves)
> Zaneiga has slower startup (around same as 1.1?) and increased recovery; has body invul now
Welp. Isn't ressenga slower now too? Damn.

- 6A gives less meter on hit (from 10 to 6); still has bonus proration
Nerf from the current 8 meter gain too..

Not really sure what to feel about the OD chain stuff. Sure you can do followup on even 0 stocks but you can't do it more than twice plus the fact that it doesn't regen on block anymore.

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So I'm going to round one tonight to try out CF Haz.
Any suggestions or requests on what to test? And is anyone else going to be there?
God, I haven't posted on here in so long.

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Late but how does dashing after jabaki slide in corner feels? It looks awkward seeing Haz dashes due to the pushback(?) of jabaki. 

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On 11/20/2015 at 0:18 PM, Ourozama said:

Late but how does dashing after jabaki slide in corner feels? It looks awkward seeing Haz dashes due to the pushback(?) of jabaki. 

I just tried it. You don't have a lot of time to think about what you want to follow it up with. Personally, it feels a little clunky. Depending on the range of how you ended Jabaki, you may have to always 3C > Jabaki and go for a mix up. Micro dash 3C is usually your best bet, and if close enough, you can Jagai for a full combo.

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