"Time to Make History" Dustloop Revamp Community Effort #1

[Anne]

So, I'm gonna talk some more about things in a practical way. For those who don't know me, I used to admin here and I now work for SRK. I can give you a bit of insight into what it's like to be on the news coverage side of things.

To start off with, lemme dispell some sort of myth right now. There is no money in coverage. What little there is not even enough to live on unless you dedicate your life to it. We don't have a ton of money, we can't afford to send people around, we can barely afford the time to even think about looking for articles. So like, there's a finite limit of coverage for the entire FGC and smaller niche communities are going to have to work harder to get their stuff up. That's just how it is. We actually can't work hard enough so it's going to take the community working with us to make better things happen, and it's hard ass thankless work.

On top of that, finding content takes up time. We rely on tips and community feedback to make up that time. I'll tell you right now the amount of anime content in our tip box is outright abyssmal. There's next to nothing there compared to the torrent of tips we get for other games. So then it's like go look for things to cover, right? Isn't the problem here that the main hub for AFGC content is dead? So I have to go spend a lot of time digging through different Twitter cliques for a glimmer of anything to write about.

And that is honestly it's own problem. The AFGC is so splintered and has so many cliques and in fighting it's hard to get much done. My own efforts recently were met with hostility from some super petty nonsense I don't care about. It's honestly it's own nightmare, trying to navigate this super split scene that has constant in fighting with very sporadic leaders. And that's just the mess trying to find the content.

Then I finally get content, and tbh compared to a lot of other scenes AFGC content is miles behind. A lot of the videos we get are small tiny clips we have trouble doing much with. Some other content ends up being so inappropriate at times we have to question to put it up. Tournament vids are all nico rips that are questionable to be posting on such a visible place. To back this up, I heard about a good sounding stream and wanted to post it up, a GG stream, but the people involved declined coverage with worries of their content being subpar. I won't knock them for that, but that's just a sign that says "up your content game" to me.

Like, I get people have a chip on their shoulder about how things have been and that's not unjustified, but there legitimate reasons why working with the AFGC is hard. And I'm not perfect, things have fallen through on our end due to me not being prepared for some things. But seriously, there's a two way road here that we need to be using. Here's some things that help make coverage easy:

+send tips. Tweets, tip box, whatever. My old Gmail (therealanneifrank@Gmail.com) forwards to my SRK email, and I'll work with DL to help get content more appropriate to them over here.

+make better content. Put more effort in, fact check more, work together. Remember if this is for a general audience be appropriate.

+Advertise better and work as a community. Side tournament coverage? Pump it up and let people know it's happening. Some super crazy stream? Should let people know ahead of time. Need to get things going between others? Communicate, even if it's just on a professional level.

+Support content that gets made. RT, share, discuss. Any content that goes up here is never mentioned. When I put up my CEOtaku story on SRK, it got like no RTs and nobody in the community mentioned it on social media, even when it featured a community member. People ask about podcasts all the time, go listen to SDR. There's no point in making content for an audience that won't actually consume it.

Like really I'm trying to be as level with everybody as I can that these are some hurdles that you gotta work together to get over. Drop any BS, make smart decisions, and just actually do it and it will come. Also be patient and have reasonable expectations. This takes time.

[Poultrygeist]

 

2.) Don't be a condescending, pompous, trolling, or styling asshole to new or much-less skilled players.

 

    I know that saying this isn't going to change some people, but this kind of behavior can make someone drop a game or stop going to a scene completely. The learning curve for the game is going to ward off some players naturally, but we don't want to discourage the ones who will actually stick with the game by being mean to them.

 

 

 

This is absolutely important, although some people may not realize it.  A big part of fighting games is shit talking and popping off, and I wouldn't want to be part of an FGC without that spirit, but save that shit for when you're actually playing someone in a close match and not when you're talking to a complete newbie.  Remember that new players may sometimes say things that you think or ignorant, but that doesn't give you an excuse to go off on them when you can just correct them.  In fact unless you're known top level it may not hurt you to humble yourself and accept that YOU can still learn and grow, that's how I approach it anyway.  Just know that on the outside looking in there's a lot of things we do that probably make people uncomfortable.  For instance, there was this thread on here a few years back, I don't remember who made it and I don't care to, it was extremely condescending and was basically an immature rant about how SF4, Marvel, MK and Smash are more popular than Guilty Gear is.  There's no reason for this.  You may not like those games, but if you don't treat their players and scene with respect then you are doing more harm than good.  In fact, when the Evo lineup was announced this year, I remember some salt from the UNIEL and BB camp about how two "unreleased games" were taking spots, even though we all knew MKX would be out by the time Evo came around.  Don't do that.  Don't try to play messiah, try to play the shepherd.  It's not the same thing.

[Yohosie]

Hi

Maybe it's my designer background speaking but a lot of the reason Dustloop is having trouble conveying itself as a news coverage site is because the design is kind of lackluster and fragmented. People only care about 4 real things -- the Wiki, the Forums, the Front Page, and the video archives (which are it's own complicated mess). Whether the site can survive forums dying out in place of facebook groups is another question (IMO, it can), but if you're trying to focus on front-page content then the design of the site needs to change from a forums based model to a front-page, news based model. Right now the front page is just what you skip to get to the forums, and the reason is that the navigation and layout still are based on a forums-first approach.
 
You can write all the content you want, and want to promote community events/etc as much as you want, but without an avenue to view it and a presentation to match you're spinnin in circles.

 

 

Usability issues (just as examples),

You want people to send tips, Anne, but how would people know to do that?

You want people to read articles, but articles are presented as forum posts?
You want to display community events, but there's no side-bar to do so?

 

 

Designer's perspective.
OK bye

[Psycho]

With good mods shitposting and harrassment (at least on the boards) can be kept to a minimum. But it still comes down to the users

[Yohosie]

Anyways, as a follow-up because editing posts is for losers and smoozers, even on mobile the site looks completely broken. Not really a good sign when most people view sites on mobile nowadays (probably less for Dustloop because it's so forums-based right now).

 

If Dustloop feels "lost", it needs to be "found". Develop a strategy on where you want to go. Develop a revenue model of how you can support that, even if it's only slight compensation for work. (Labors of Love still need to give some cash.) Design & develop content and collateral to match that strategy.

[LatiosG]

 

 

 

Usability issues (just as examples),

You want people to send tips, Anne, but how would people know to do that?

You want people to read articles, but articles are presented as forum posts?

You want to display community events, but there's no side-bar to do so?

 

 

Designer's perspective.

OK bye

 

This. There are alot of ways to go about "fixing" dustloop but if you want to be more content focused, the design needs to change. Its going to take a team of people to focus on forum revamp, design revamp, writing and editing structure for content etc. Its also up for the greater community to want these things to happen and in what order in an organized manner. I do hope some change comes out of the discussion instead of things going to the way side.

[Ben Reed]

Regarding frontpage/subforum content...my somewhat ignorant take on it, I guess, is that even though a lot of characters for various games (Xrd, BlazBlue, Persona main ones I'm thinking of) usually are getting continually explored. But you may not see that tech evolve on Dustloop itself simply because a lot of game knowledge is increasingly concentrated in streams and YouTube. People avoid Dustloop because it has a semi-deserved reputation for not being as fast a source of information as just searching for videos to watch a game, character, matchup or whatever evolve.

People tend more and more to make videos demonstrating tech rather than provide detailed breakdowns on DL frontpage or subforums simply because it's (usually) more time saved. Record, add comments/video notations, maybe yakk a bit in your own voice if you feel you explain it better that way, post video, post token link in some dusty (no pun intended) corner of Dustloop, done. 

If those links were put somewhere more visible, and some staff writer or contributing writer could write an SRK frontpage-style brief article to describe the significance of the content, that might help draw a few more eyes to Dustloop. People have to look a bit less hard superficially for Dustloop content, and start digging deeper into the site once they see that it's being kept up to date with whatever tech or metagame changes (tourney results, whether upsets or an ongoing trend) are happening for insert favorite anime game here.

tl;dr get more aggressive about frontpaging video content that's relevant to Dustloop interests -- character tutorials, combo/setup tutorials, match footage, etc. A bit more like modern SRK frontpage (minus a bit of the fluff). That's my dumbass take on it.

[Eshi]

Hi

Maybe it's my designer background speaking but a lot of the reason Dustloop is having trouble conveying itself as a news coverage site is because the design is kind of lackluster and fragmented. People only care about 4 real things -- the Wiki, the Forums, the Front Page, and the video archives (which are it's own complicated mess). Whether the site can survive forums dying out in place of facebook groups is another question (IMO, it can), but if you're trying to focus on front-page content then the design of the site needs to change from a forums based model to a front-page, news based model. Right now the front page is just what you skip to get to the forums, and the reason is that the navigation and layout still are based on a forums-first approach.

 

You can write all the content you want, and want to promote community events/etc as much as you want, but without an avenue to view it and a presentation to match you're spinnin in circles.

 

 

Usability issues (just as examples),

You want people to send tips, Anne, but how would people know to do that?

You want people to read articles, but articles are presented as forum posts?

You want to display community events, but there's no side-bar to do so?

 

 

Designer's perspective.

OK bye

I really really like this idea, but then the obvious issue is who to put in charge of such a large redesign. Especially since they likely won't be paid.

[Yohosie]

I really really like this idea, but then the obvious issue is who to put in charge of the redesign. Especially since they likely won't be paid.

If I get a Wordpress dev or some sort of front-end dev that can help out I'm willing to talk to help out the scene. You can't just redesign the site willy-nilly though, it still needs a clear direction and content model/content audit.

[tai6a_]

Take this with a grain of salt. am not trying to be a dick nor an asshole nor condesending.  and I love GG series to death, and this place was awesome when i was a kid. learning my first slayer RRC into big damage :3

 

well am gona chim in again. cause this is intresting so far. bigges problem that will happen that a few have noticed.

 

Everyone have ideas. but alot of people are not actually good at executing said idea. This is nothing to fight over. some people do stuff some people think. some do both. its perfectly normal and "GOOD"

 

in the general scheme of things.  Make a pool with top 20 something best ideas or w/e make people be able to vote 2-3 diffrent subjects.

 

 

then we can try implementing those.

 

 

then do the same on a later time or something similar >.>

 

 

Just a fair warning as  dont make to many changes. start small and just improve a little bit all over. Sadly I suck at fighting games and stuff like that. But I am always willing to help. as long as its work that actually have a purpose.(used to write shit ton of stuff for COH and DOW2. long long long time ago.

[Eshi]

If I get a Wordpress dev or some sort of front-end dev that can help out I'm willing to talk to help out the scene. You can't just redesign the site willy-nilly though, it still needs a clear direction and content model/content audit.

I'm a front-end dev now. Maybe I could help out?!

[shtkn]

we used to have a sidebar on the front page taht linked to teh caledar that showed upcoming tournaments. the forums still has that sidebar, but the front page does not due to forum software lacking that feature.

 

there's actually a major upgrade to the software available that i believe has this and more, but finding a time to do the upgrade is tricky; i dont want to do it while there's a lot of discussion going on like right now and prematurely "end" it.

[Yohosie]

I'm a front-end dev now. Maybe I could help out?!

If there's internal development for a game-plan I might be able to help. Let me know, you got my twitter. I do marketing for a living so I'm pretty well-versed in strategizing, input(work) vs output(viewers/helpfulness/ad revenue), and managing web projects.

[LunaKage]

I feel like Dustloop just isn't very inviting to new users. When we have a rule against "posting stupid shit", it makes new people hesitate to post anything. Plus, there's the fact that some mods wont hesitate to be assholes or trolls themselves. Hell, I've had problems with how the Staff handled things before, but this is the kind of community that will endlessly harass you for saying anything. So I usually keep quiet, and as a result, post much MUCH less. I'm a moderator, I have been for around 6 years, there's no reason why I should be afraid to speak up about a problem I'm having, and yet I am, because I feel like nothing will change at best, and at worst I'll just receive harassment.

[Myoro]

Some really good stuff being said here. '3'

 

Anyone not making use of the "change theme" option at the bottom of every page should really try it. The "Makoto" Theme is pretty easy on the eyes, I changed to it for Halloween and never changed it back; I find the black and orange pages and white letters, makes the whole site easier to surf.

 

I'll continue telling people to come here for info, questions, and discussion, but yeah it's important not to treat new people with hostility, even if they're frustrated. Really frustration is a natural response to not doing well even with effort put forth, and it's a hurdle everyone crosses at some point. The Netplay salt thread is a good place for people dealing with that strain and not quite at the place to ask questions. If their ultimate goal is improvement though that is an opportunity to create a productive poster. Clue them in on your thoughts and ideas, potential solutions to their problems and see if it helps.

 

There's also the kinda clique-ish nature about this place that's gotta be addressed at some point. I feel like it's a topic that's gotta be handled carefully else it could get out of hand, but it does exist and it is gross. Many people I've spoken to see DLs membership as elitist, rude, arrogant, mean-spirited and so on, which could only ever describe a few people at most. (and then possibly not even them.) In reality, most of the people here are awesome, helpful individuals with a genuine passion for their games, which is what will attract people to an online community. Things like popping off may integral to a competitive scene and the culture of FGs sure, but many people, especially the newer or more isolated ones, are probably not well exposed to the idea and will take it as bullying. One can't really read any sort of playful melodramatic or joking demeanor over the web, so it's really easy to misconstrue. And then there's actual bullying...

 

Some good stuff's happening here and I'd rather see the fruits of that before poking that hive of hornets open. If it gets resolved somehow, that'll be great.

 

On the issue of the wikis, a lot of the info, at least for CPE is outdated and could use some TLC. I know I'd be grateful. Back when I first joined DL, which wasn't too long ago I think, the CSE wiki had all sorts of helpful comments, bnbs, accurate frame data, various uses for moves, and even delightful jokes. It's little exaggeration to say that whoever put all of that there made it so much more fun and easy to get into the deeper aspects of my game, and is likely a large part of the reason I'm on DL today.

 

On the topic of the forums, well with the exception of Xrd, a lot of the games just seem to keep adding characters, and the way DL is constructed with the character forums being the discussion central, interactions between members becomes more and more limited. Even looking in the list of names of people on this page ATM, I think I've talked to maybe two or three of you? This site actually has a ton of members who could probably have a lot to discuss and  learn from one another, but the opportunities given for them to meet is almost nil because the groups are divided to the precise thing a person is interested about learning down to a specific aspect of a specific character in a specific edition of a specific game. Despite the awful lack of moderation, a lot of people I know go to G-FAQs to mingle with the community just because they can talk to new faces contribute to and learn about new facets of these games without too much worry of criticism. If Possible, DL should try to absorb and improve on what makes Skype Twitter and G-FAQs appealing mediums of communication and completely absorb their membership.

 

Ironically, there is a fear of discussing game-play attributed to this site. Many people ether believe or support the notion that if a player isn't at the top of the hierarchy, they will be invalidated and should be mocked for drafting or proposing new ideas or concepts. Whats left is simply discussing and comparing the snippits of ideas and opinions of those who have established themselves already or speaking only in finite fact. That is not to say people should spread misinformation about characters as if it were fact; integredy of info is something very important to this site and the community, but theories, claims, and  misinformation ought to be dis-proven through examples and fact. The issues here should be solved not only by making the thoughts and opinions of those who are at the top more access-able and and subject to question, but by allowing people to interpret, create and develop their theory of game-play safly within a public forum. If it were possible, we should get some Higher level American or JP players in here that'd be pretty amazing, I'd be here every day if I could discuss the finer points of Relius with someone like RYO, Lich, or Mabukapu. I know that there's a language barrier to consider for many of the JP players, but if that could be overcome we could potentially unite the entirety JP and ENG communities with DL. It's something that I'd love to see happen.

[LuminAbyss]

I feel like Dustloop just isn't very inviting to new users. When we have a rule against "posting stupid shit", it makes new people hesitate to post anything. Plus, there's the fact that some mods wont hesitate to be assholes or trolls themselves. Hell, I've had problems with how the Staff handled things before, but this is the kind of community that will endlessly harass you for saying anything. So I usually keep quiet, and as a result, post much MUCH less. I'm a moderator, I have been for around 6 years, there's no reason why I should be afraid to speak up about a problem I'm having, and yet I am, because I feel like nothing will change at best, and at worst I'll just receive harassment.

 

I agree. A lot of people seem to forget that back in CS2 era, the forums were alive and active BECAUSE it was inviting. like yeah, there was a lot of off-top and stupid shit posted in some threads but BECAUSE of that everyone knew each other and when everyone knew each other, they talked about actual gameplay related info. THey shared stuff. they played together. it was comfortable, it was FUN and the second they stopped allowing that, the boards started dying. Me, personally, I wasn't even a good player but I did everything I could to contribute info because I enjoyed talking to everyone. I went to different forums and discussed the Ragna perspective of match-ups to help people out/get helped as well. That environment just isn't there anymore imo.

[indie_animator]

Just wanted to say how much I've appreciated this site, especially since venturing into vs. play w/P4AU & Xrd.  Glad to hear you want to keep improving the site!

It's been an interesting read in this topic thus far. 

Re: the front page, you might already be aware of all the leading forums, but I like a design like Skullheart's.  Granted, it's just one game w/a small cast, but it's pretty good imo.

 

I had no idea there was a shortage of manpower on doing stuff.  I'd love to give back for all the info & community I've gotten out of DL, so let me know if I can help in any way.

[BlackYakuzu94]

I feel like Dustloop just isn't very inviting to new users. When we have a rule against "posting stupid shit", it makes new people hesitate to post anything. Plus, there's the fact that some mods wont hesitate to be assholes or trolls themselves. Hell, I've had problems with how the Staff handled things before, but this is the kind of community that will endlessly harass you for saying anything. So I usually keep quiet, and as a result, post much MUCH less. I'm a moderator, I have been for around 6 years, there's no reason why I should be afraid to speak up about a problem I'm having, and yet I am, because I feel like nothing will change at best, and at worst I'll just receive harassment.

 

I frequent a lot of forums and there's a flipside to this; you let people have too much freedom, it invites things like gamefaqs, where people spread misinformation and make redundant topics about things that are already covered. It invites more off topic discussion and no actual gameplay is discussed.

 

Its really just the nature of the internet, you give anonymous users online freedom and they will abuse it and then we get things like 4chan. You start coming down on things like and want more organized discussion, suddenly the site is "elitist" and we get accused of "No Fun allowed". 

 

 

I'll admit, I was a bit intimidated on this site too at first, especially since I had a pretty bad experience in the OST thread very early on, but I persisted and eventually get comfortable enough here to post more and want to help people. I won't lie and say this site is perfect, but I'd rather put my discomfort aside for sake of helping more players out.

[Chaoschao222]

I frequent a lot of forums and there's a flipside to this; you let people have too much freedom, it invites things like gamefaqs, where people spread misinformation and make redundant topics about things that are already covered. It invites more off topic discussion and no actual gameplay is discussed.

 

Its really just the nature of the internet, you give anonymous users online freedom and they will abuse it and then we get things like 4chan. You start coming down on things like and want more organized discussion, suddenly the site is "elitist" and we get accused of "No Fun allowed". 

 

 

I'll admit, I was a bit intimidated on this site too at first, especially since I had a pretty bad experience in the OST thread very early on, but I persisted and eventually get comfortable enough here to post more and want to help people. I won't lie and say this site is perfect, but I'd rather put my discomfort aside for sake of helping more players out.

Continuing on the nature of the internet, you're going to get things like that regardless of how much freedom you give users. Freedom only impacts how severely they'll be dealt with.

 

The stricter side of DL has been called elitist, the general "fun" side has been called clutter. Both aren't wrong. There are undeniable cliques within the community, but when info becomes hard to find because people are talking about their waifus and how much Chie weighs people become frustrated too.

 

Having been a major issue on the "fun" side back during NVG's existence as well as currently trying to keep Zepp somewhere between fun and orderly, I still feel like a leash is important. The site could definitely be more inviting, but I think its harsh nature is important for what should be an information hub for the community. Having more knowledgeable and active mods would help us as a whole, but one can't exactly force something like that into existence.

 

I mean, DL 'hired' three mods specifically to keep the front page updated, and... eeeh.

[BlackYakuzu94]

We need balance.

[Prototype909]

I don't think asking people to limit their discussions to gameplay is the problem, nor should it feel restricting as long as they're actually here to talk about the game. Off-topic chat belongs in a Skype/LINE/Twitter chat or in the case of Zepp Museum related content, in the proper forum for it, not in the threads where people are hopefully trying to find meaningful information about their respective characters/games.

I feel like the moderators who take care of the general forums have been very reasonable about the way they conduct business, ie unless you go seriously out of bounds with offensive comments or off-rails you are given some leeway. Nobody is dragging people out into the streets and banishing them from the forums if they go on a tangent for a post for two. Yes, you cannot find pages upon pages of off-topic discussion and reaction images like you could a few years ago when we were on the Continuum Shift series of BB - that was sort've the goal of getting rid of those types of threads. If anything in my opinion, all "banning" the general discussion threads did was reveal that -for the most part, many people did not really care to discuss the actual game-.

 

Yes, it is 100% true that after these threads were banned you could see a noticeable "drop-off" in Dustloop activity, but if these people were not here to actually talk about the game they were on the wrong forum to begin with. If anything what it -DID- reveal is that many of the high level players of *insert games* were too busy actually playing the games and did not use the forums very much, which is unfortunate when it comes to consulting knowledgeable parties but not something that can really be enforced other than asking nicely "Hey would you mind sharing more insights with the playerbase for your character regarding - *stuff*". It is not something "blameable" for lack of a better phrase.

Back to the topic of how inviting/restrictive Dustloop currently is though, I do not feel like it is any way, shape, or form unreasonable to expect people to be "limited" to posts like

 

-"Hey guys, I feel like XYZ matchups for my character are difficult, can you offer me some insights that might help?"

-"Hey guys, I can't figure out why this combo keeps dropping, any idea what might be going wrong?"

-"Hey guys, I couldn't find information regarding *Insert thing here* on the wiki, does anyone know about *Insert thing here*?"

-"Hey guys, I found a combo route that does more damage than the ones that were listed in the OP, check it out"

-"Can someone explain to me how X-System mechanic works in this game? I don't quite understand it"

 

What I don't want to see is

 

-"Hey guys, check out my Netplay Tier-list"

or

-"Here's my essay on why CT Arakune has no good match-ups"

or

-"Man, did you guys check out that under-boob on Makoto?"

 

If people actually feel intimidated to talk about the game, then that is its own problem because as it now stands I do not feel like there are barriers to that type of posting on Dustloop. There is a difference between posting things that are obviously misinformed or out of place which are bad, and things like asking for help when you do not understand something, consulting other players on how to improve, or sharing information - all of which is good for the forums.

 

The goal should be facilitating discussion that's relevant to the game/the character in question, in addition to promoting community events when available, not promoting chaff discussion for the sake of having it.
 

[Poultrygeist]

It might be best to just let Zepp Museum be the general non-gameplay dump, that's pretty much what it is anyway and no amount of moderation attempts is going to change that.  But you know, there's other GG/BB and especially other Persona related forums on the internet for discussion of story, characters, etc.  I can tell you that if you try to crack down on Zepp you will probably lose a small handful of the userbase, although given that DL is primarily a gameplay forum and always has been, whether that's a significant loss or not is up to the staff I guess.

 

 

I don't think asking people to limit their discussions to gameplay is the problem, nor should it feel restricting as long as they're actually here to talk about the game. Off-topic chat belongs in a Skype/LINE/Twitter chat or in the case of Zepp Museum related content, in the proper forum for it, not in the threads where people are hopefully trying to find meaningful information about their respective characters/games.

I feel like the moderators who take care of the general forums have been very reasonable about the way they conduct business, ie unless you go seriously out of bounds with offensive comments or off-rails you are given some leeway. Nobody is dragging people out into the streets and banishing them from the forums if they go on a tangent for a post for two. Yes, you cannot find pages upon pages of off-topic discussion and reaction images like you could a few years ago when we were on the Continuum Shift series of BB - that was sort've the goal of getting rid of those types of threads. If anything in my opinion, all "banning" the general discussion threads did was reveal that -for the most part, many people did not really care to discuss the actual game-.

 

Yes, it is 100% true that after these threads were banned you could see a noticeable "drop-off" in Dustloop activity, but if these people were not here to actually talk about the game they were on the wrong forum to begin with. If anything what it -DID- reveal is that many of the high level players of *insert games* were too busy actually playing the games and did not use the forums very much, which is unfortunate when it comes to consulting knowledgeable parties but not something that can really be enforced other than asking nicely "Hey would you mind sharing more insights with the playerbase for your character regarding - *stuff*". It is not something "blameable" for lack of a better phrase.

Back to the topic of how inviting/restrictive Dustloop currently is though, I do not feel like it is any way, shape, or form unreasonable to expect people to be "limited" to posts like

 

-"Hey guys, I feel like XYZ matchups for my character are difficult, can you offer me some insights that might help?"

-"Hey guys, I can't figure out why this combo keeps dropping, any idea what might be going wrong?"

-"Hey guys, I couldn't find information regarding *Insert thing here* on the wiki, does anyone know about *Insert thing here*?"

-"Hey guys, I found a combo route that does more damage than the ones that were listed in the OP, check it out"

-"Can someone explain to me how X-System mechanic works in this game? I don't quite understand it"

 

What I don't want to see is

 

-"Hey guys, check out my Netplay Tier-list"

or

-"Here's my essay on why CT Arakune has no good match-ups"

or

-"Man, did you guys check out that under-boob on Makoto?"

 

If people actually feel intimidated to talk about the game, then that is its own problem because as it now stands I do not feel like there are barriers to that type of posting on Dustloop. There is a difference between posting things that are obviously misinformed or out of place which are bad, and things like asking for help when you do not understand something, consulting other players on how to improve, or sharing information - all of which is good for the forums.

 

The goal should be facilitating discussion that's relevant to the game/the character in question, in addition to promoting community events when available, not promoting chaff discussion for the sake of having it.
 

 

I'm not going to lie to you, I've had several people tell me they're intimidated to even post anything because they're afraid someone will misconstrue their beginner questions as someone intentionally saying ignorant shit and that someone is going to come in and dump all over them.  I don't know how many of you remember that whole debacle in the BB gameplay thread where SKD had to come in and correct people for saying ignorant things, but basically some people are afraid that they'll have to seriously grovel or else be misunderstood as one of those people he had to correct.  Usually it's easy to tell when people are genuinely asking for advice, but well...sometimes people, especially beginners, get salty and word things poorly out of frustration.  Unless someone is blatantly being a "scrub" and going off on a rant at how Potemkin is OP because he does big damage, at least.

[LunaKage]

The thing is, the people who dropped off after the General Threads got removed were still a part of the community, the Gen Threads gave them a reason to come here, and they had a comfortable place to come and chat with like-minded people who play the game. Due to that, since they got comfortable with the people in their respective board, they were also much more comfortable asking for help, and knew where to go to get that help.

 

I get so many messages on Twitter and Facebook about Noel stuff, asking for advice, for coaching, for opinions. But everything I tell them is stuff I have posted, or could have posted on Dustloop. When I inform them that I made a thread on the topic, or other such things, they respond with "Oh, I don't go to Dustloop, That place is full of big heads and jerks", or stuff like "I didn't think anyone still posted on Dustloop" then I gotta tell them, that they're right, no one posts anymore.

 

The thing is, the Gen Threads not only showed people that the boards were indeed active, but they also channeled all of the off topic tomfoolery to one thread per board, no one had to sift through pages of bullshit to find info, because we had info threads, the Gen Threads were there to help build a community, and friendships. New users who might not be super good at being social would see people posting about silly things, or "waifu talk" and be put at ease, thus being more likely to post. On the other side of that coin, you could say that super serious users might not like that, but then they could just stay away from the general threads. It's not like we've had an influx of top players start posting after we got rid of General Threads, if anything, they stopped, because people started using twitter for everything instead. Which is like one GIANT General Thread by the way.

[BlackYakuzu94]

For the record, we do have a chat now. Just wanted to remind people of that.

[Myoro]

 

I frequent a lot of forums and there's a flipside to this; you let people have too much freedom, it invites things like gamefaqs, where people spread misinformation and make redundant topics about things that are already covered. It invites more off topic discussion and no actual gameplay is discussed.

 

Its really just the nature of the internet, you give anonymous users online freedom and they will abuse it and then we get things like 4chan. You start coming down on things like and want more organized discussion, suddenly the site is "elitist" and we get accused of "No Fun allowed". 

 

 

I'll admit, I was a bit intimidated on this site too at first, especially since I had a pretty bad experience in the OST thread very early on, but I persisted and eventually get comfortable enough here to post more and want to help people. I won't lie and say this site is perfect, but I'd rather put my discomfort aside for sake of helping more players out.

 

There has gotta be a middle ground between verbal toxicity and absolute mess that we can come too. The people here have got to be smart enough to work it out too. Sure it'd be silly to ask for a perfect site, but that's no reason it can't be improved right? Moderating conversation and harassing those who are a step out of line are two very different things, one is an objective that fosters good productive conversation and the other ends it.

 

Creating a comfortable place to post stuff doesn't mean we'll all devolve to baboons, and even if it did there's alternative methods of fostering good discourse. I've seen first hand how groups can talk about BS one second and be serious the next and get along just fine.

 

Continuing on the nature of the internet, you're going to get things like that regardless of how much freedom you give users. Freedom only impacts how severely they'll be dealt with.

 

The stricter side of DL has been called elitist, the general "fun" side has been called clutter. Both aren't wrong. There are undeniable cliques within the community, but when info becomes hard to find because people are talking about their waifus and how much Chie weighs people become frustrated too.

 

Having been a major issue on the "fun" side back during NVG's existence as well as currently trying to keep Zepp somewhere between fun and orderly, I still feel like a leash is important. The site could definitely be more inviting, but I think its harsh nature is important for what should be an information hub for the community. Having more knowledgeable and active mods would help us as a whole, but one can't exactly force something like that into existence.

 

I mean, DL 'hired' three mods specifically to keep the front page updated, and... eeeh.

 

The duality of wanting community discussion and absolute accuracy can make posting here very confusing. On one hand, unproductive or not strictly factual talk can disguise info or corrupt it, on the other if you want discussion, there must be something to discuss. Facts and questions are merely two avenues of interaction. Things like finding frame data and combo paths only appeal to very few and don't prompt a whole lot of discourse.

 

Following rules that only specify and allow for fact and data limits conversation to those interested only in data, well established enough to call their findings fact, or who have questions about said facts.

 

I believe the Zepp museum was definitely a huge step in the right direction, but perhaps it wasn't a step far enough. I'd support making locked threads that carry vital info, which can edited by the mods when challenged or added to by info given in groups free to discuss stuff. That way the meat of any discussion or "clutter" as some call it can be skipped by those looking for only hard fact and info. If someone wanted to know only things contingent to a specific point posted in the info only topic, the key points of why something is considered one way or another and any criticisms or exceptions against established theory listed in the non Mod page, said posts could be directly quoted or even hyperlinked to the info only threads. Sort of like the news only topics we already have, but more effective because the added posts would be filtered by people who have an intimate understanding of what belongs there.

 

-"Hey guys, I feel like XYZ matchups for my character are difficult, can you offer me some insights that might help?"

-"Hey guys, I can't figure out why this combo keeps dropping, any idea what might be going wrong?"

-"Hey guys, I couldn't find information regarding *Insert thing here* on the wiki, does anyone know about *Insert thing here*?"

-"Hey guys, I found a combo route that does more damage than the ones that were listed in the OP, check it out"

-"Can someone explain to me how X-System mechanic works in this game? I don't quite understand it"

Is a form of discussion that can grow tiring and dull to people if it was interesting at all to them to begin with. Theorizing, developing, discussion, making controversial statements outside of question/answer format is something that should be able to be accommodated officially and otherwise. Being disingenuous shouldn't be permissible in a serious discussion format, but being wrong isn't inherently evil; it just means that the person needs to be corrected somehow.

 

-"Hey guys, check out my Netplay Tier-list"

or

-"Here's my essay on why CT Arakune has no good match-ups"

or

-"Man did you guys check out that under-boob on Makoto?"

 

I've heard there used to be threads and groups where this kind of talk belonged too, but it was too hard to moderate or something and that caused their demise somehow. Eventually it was just left to G-FAQs Skype and Twitter to house that judged yet very real part of the community. For many these games are merely entertainment, but the exposure to the other side of DL, the more professional competitive side that is focused on data, productive discourse, and all that good noise could help bring them closer an "ideal competitive poster".

 

Something like "Yeah, I came on here today to blog about Makoot's underboobage or make outdated memes, but I learned about a tourney/casuals near me. Sounds like fun, I'mma check it out."

 

It sounds crazy, but I've had long in depth game-play dialogues with exclusive s***posters and jokers who are, today, very invested in the game and actually contribute to the community. 

 

There's also those who have both the desire to joke around and have serious game-play discussions. I'm in disbelief myself, but some, if not many, of the top players in the FGC are s***posters from time to time. (>_>) If it's not too much work, which I have the sneaking suspicion it may be, we could house both sides of the community here.

 

This last part is just a musing though. It's been tested and it's been ditched by this site, and I'm sure there are good, valid reasons for that decision. Still I think there could be some merit to be reaped from it all. The rest is mostly ideals that have no thought out solution or ideas that would probably be only possible through hard work. I want to know what y'all think of this and whatever is decided upon, I'll still be here and I'll do whatever I can to help. I'm also interested in other potential solutions too.