"Time to Make History" Dustloop Revamp Community Effort #1

[Nakkiel]

It's not a huge focus of discussion but for productivity sake, using Twitter as a comparison in any form to DL's function should be nixed. Very different platform of communication, timelines can be tailored to see mostly only what you want to see (re: twitter is a big general thread, top players shitpost). While I see the point, it's a big stretch.

 

Personally, I don't mind the general threads and never really did. Misinformation will get posted either way. My biggest gripe and request was that character sub-forums have harsh, strict rules. That is where pertinent information has generally been kept and having it lost in pages of whining or no-content posts is frustrating.

[LunaKage]

It's not a huge focus of discussion but for productivity sake, using Twitter as a comparison in any form to DL's function should be nixed. Very different platform of communication, timelines can be tailored to see mostly only what you want to see (re: twitter is a big general thread, top players shitpost). While I see the point, it's a big stretch.

 

Personally, I don't mind the general threads and never really did. Misinformation will get posted either way. My biggest gripe and request was that character sub-forums have harsh, strict rules. That is where pertinent information has generally been kept and having it lost in pages of whining or no-content posts is frustrating.

My comparison to twitter was just because people prefer to use that to gather information instead of Dustloop. I'm fully aware of how it's a completely different format.

 

And again, having a Gen thread in a character board is fine, as long as it's restricted to just that thread. Information will not be lost, since the solid info will be posted in the info threads. Back when NVG was getting 1,000 posts per day, there would be a time where gameplay discussion happened in the thread, whenever I saw something like that, I would inform the user who posted it to take it to one of the gameplay related threads. At that point, the users who frequented the Noel boards knew better, and always posted info in the correct thread. Whenever a new user would ask a question in the Gen thread, either myself, or one of the regulars would redirect that user to the appropriate thread.

That's why when NVG was still active, the Noel Board really policed itself. The only time it got out of hand was when a detractor (Usually another Dustloop mod) decided to come in and purposefully troll the thread.

[Nakkiel]

In practice, the general threads (within character forums) have never really played out that way besides your exception. More often than not, good information is either lost within it or turns into extra clerical work for the mod rather than already being centralized in the appropriate thread.

 

My reference to general threads was more of the General Netplay thread or a real community thread where you can just go post, not one restricted to each character forum. In my 7 years reading this forum I have seen those turn to garbage again and again, up until they were banned. I don't feel the character forums need a "general discussion" thread, it's unnecessary. Character forums need to stay restricted to gameplay related discussion only if you ask me, even if it is theoryfighting or what not.

[Myoro]

It's not a huge focus of discussion but for productivity sake, using Twitter as a comparison in any form to DL's function should be nixed. Very different platform of communication, timelines can be tailored to see mostly only what you want to see (re: twitter is a big general thread, top players shitpost). While I see the point, it's a big stretch.

 

Personally, I don't mind the general threads and never really did. Misinformation will get posted either way. My biggest gripe and request was that character sub-forums have harsh, strict rules. That is where pertinent information has generally been kept and having it lost in pages of whining or no-content posts is frustrating.

 

Well I suppose not everybody is going to want to come to a community page for information alone. Might as well call DL what it is today, an archive, an info-dump, occasionally a Q&A, but hardly a community.

 

As far as archives go it's unmatched, which is its primary use for people like me. As far as info dumps go, twitter gets it faster. As a Q&A Dustloop has got a pretty impatient, intolerant image associated with it; to the casual observer it's not an ideal place to admit one needs help.

 

Another solution, one that I don't particularly like but can see brewing, would be to tear down the discussion threads altogether and use it to keep information. It'd be easier to moderate and have a clear purpose to boot, and it could leave the redundant functions that cluttered it before to other sites and tools that fulfill those needs without the added burden of keeping the info accessible and clear. People who already use Twitter, Skype Groups, and G-FAQs as an outlet for everything else have pretty much cast their ballot.

[Nakkiel]

Well, since you have mentioned just calling it what it is today, a better discussion that needs to be figured out is "What should DustLoop function as?" What is the end-goal of this site and what is trying to be accomplished? If it is informational, having a community is not really going to work the way it's been since, well, forever. It's the entire reason I stopped posting, I don't want to watch my character's sub-forum get littered with absolutely useless posts.

 

That is purely my preference but really the goal of the site and what happens with it is not going to please everyone or be ideal for everyone. 

[Poultrygeist]

We have a "news only, anything else = infraction" thread for most games, maybe something similar to that for characters?  Like you're not supposed to be talking about story fluff in character threads anyway, but how about threads that are exclusively "need to know" information that has been verified through results?

[Tari]

Bit late to the party, but I would generally agree with the folks who say that the old General Discussion threads in each subforum helped bring players together. Those threads were moderated, and though it made the lives of moderators arguably tougher, since they had to dig through more posts each day, there was significantly more activity around the board.

 

I admit to having a skewed perspective of it, though, as I mostly only visited the Rachel and Noel threads. Not sure how the other ones were, but I can't recall any issues with those two in particular. Any pertinent information tended to get placed in the correct threads, as well.

 

Admitably, these days a lot of the old players have dropped off the radar and the lack of activity could just be attributed to life, but it's hard to say for sure whether the dearth of new players is affected by the atmosphere of each board or not.

 

 

 

As far as moderation goes nowadays, the activity level of each board is so low that it feels like there's almost nothing that needs to be done. I pop in every now and then, go through every post and make sure no one's doing anything that needs to be dealt with, say welcomes to new players (rare as they are), and move on. The Rachel board in particular pretty much maintains and polices itself, thanks in large part to the core group of members (-cough- Gamester -cough-) who continue to maintain things like the wiki and video thread.

 

 

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If all the site is meant to be is an info dump (which is what it's been turning into), the side game forums like Gundam, UNIEL, and so-on start to feel somewhat out-of-place. Since those aren't huge, multi-board beasts, discussion tends to stay more centralized and have more of an open-ended, community feeling to them.

 

I don't think there's any problem, by the way, with removing the General Discussion threads from character subforums. The potential issue is that many players will only visit their character subforum, and will never see the other, general subforums for their particular game, and hence will see more of the information-dump, sterile posts than any sort of open-armed welcoming behaviour.

 

This is part of the reason we keep a newcomer thread in the Rachel forum, though it really doesn't see much use these days. (edit: this is also why I reverted the main thread back to 'general discussion' when we remade it recently)

 

 

 

I'm actually very curious about how the forums feel from the perspective of an Xrd mod, though. I only really remember things from the heyday of BB activity, and the P4 activity was divided heavily between this forum and the MM forum, so I'm not really sure how the recent surge of activity may have been.

 

 

 

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As far as front page info is concerned, I'm still too used to the old format of Dustloop, where the forums were front-and-center, and the articles page was an afterthought. I generally don't even remember that we have a front page, let alone think of posting things to it (though I would likely refrain from doing so anyway, for various reasons). Tourney results, upcoming majors, loketest news, maybe CMVs, and so-on is all stuff that might as well be added to the articles list if anyone remembers to do so.

[Myoro]

@sG: I can see how a purely informational website would appeal to many. No opinions, no news, just data. That's what a load of people come here for, and it'd be easier you and people like you if that were its sole purpose.

 

@ everyone: Speaking purely pragmatically questions now are: What should be DL's purpose be? What needs does it fulfill right now? How many of these needs are better serviced by other tools?

 

But thinking like that kinda irks me. I kinda liked DL as a community sometimes, especially when I first came here, and it'd be sad to see it go just like that. I think, though it would not be an easy feat, it'd be cool if rather than submitting its functions as a community hub to other sites, DL could simply usurp and outclass the utility of those competitors. Just, do what Twitter, Skype, and G-FAQs do for the average DL member, but better if possible. Fuse the community back into one site again as it were. It'd be a lot of work and use a lot of methods we haven't considered yet, but this is a thread about revamping the DL community, not outright killing it lol. I think it may be worth a shot.

[skd]

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sn5nbu

 

hello please tell me what you think about the video threads on this website dustloop dot com

 

i am thinking a lot about the best way to lay out a character subforum and i think the video thread is one of the biggest components in approaching a character.

 

edit: i realy hate the character subforum video megathreads, as you can probably tell.

[LunaKage]

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sn5nbu

 

hello please tell me what you think about the video threads on this website dustloop dot com

 

i am thinking a lot about the best way to lay out a character subforum and i think the video thread is one of the biggest components in approaching a character.

 

edit: i realy hate the character subforum video megathreads, as you can probably tell.

 

Man, I actually really like that idea.

[Prototype909]

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sn5nbu

 

hello please tell me what you think about the video threads on this website dustloop dot com

 

i am thinking a lot about the best way to lay out a character subforum and i think the video thread is one of the biggest components in approaching a character.

 

edit: i realy hate the character subforum video megathreads, as you can probably tell.

 

Still digesting everything in the Twitlonger but I think the biggest hurdle/challenge is that for the most part finding players with expertise in a character high enough to provide the level of insight you're expecting. Most character mods are people who have the positions precisely because there were no high-level players willing to take it. Like if all the mods on Dustloop were like the philosopher kings of their respective games/characters and not just a majority of random people who have the position because nobody more qualified was available it might sound more feasible to me.

[Tari]

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sn5nbu

 

hello please tell me what you think about the video threads on this website dustloop dot com

 

i am thinking a lot about the best way to lay out a character subforum and i think the video thread is one of the biggest components in approaching a character.

 

edit: i realy hate the character subforum video megathreads, as you can probably tell.

 

The megathreads have a place as a resource of watching players of various skill levels, but they really aren't an easy source of finding specifically good videos.

 

I'm keeping an eye on the Izayoi board as reference to see how it looks, but I'm not likely to actually nix the megathread any time soon.

 

 

As far as match video discussion and analysis goes, I don't think I've seen any of that since the demise of the general discussion threads (not on JP vids, that is), so any start on encouraging that type of discussion is fully supported by me.

 

There is a thread for discussing player matches in depth on the Rachel boards, which sees occasional use, so I suppose that's a starting point as well.

 

I'll have to talk to the others about it, as I've been away from BB for so long that my game knowledge has fallen very far behind the curve.

 

 

Still digesting everything in the Twitlonger but I think the biggest/hurdle challenge is that for the most part finding players with expertise in a character high enough to provide the level of insight you're expecting. Most character mods are people who have the positions precisely because there were no high-level players willing to take it. Like if all the mods on Dustloop were like the philosopher kings of their respective games/characters and not just a majority random people who have the position because nobody more qualified was available it might sound more feasible to me.

 

Very much the truth.

[skd]

its true (regarding the lack of strong players) , but honestly in years of trying to hold hands in improvement, i think this kind of discussion in itself is generally what helps the most.

 

even in terms of low level analysis, putting it out there and having it reflected on / justified is one of the easiest ways to learn outside of the game, and can help prime a mindset where they question a lot of the things that create their analysis. i think participating in this kind of discussion can help, regardless of the level.

 

this kind of thinking and improving addresses core problems that a lot of midlevel players encounter, i guess. Right now, if i was to teach someone, my first request would be to watch them analyze a match, and then ask them all the "whys" for certain things. Even just going through the motions helps, and even for people watching, it can get them thinking in the right direction.

 

Truthfully, i feel like the US playerbase's biggest issue is not knowing how to approach improvement well at all, though im starting to drift a bit off topic(?), as what I really intend to tackle is level of play rather than the "liveliness" of the forum, though facilitating discussion / more accessible organization is a step in that direction. It might be relevant i guess, dustloop is a "competitive resource", haha

[LunaKage]

I support this idea. Even if we don't want to go into it 100% by replacing the mega threads, we could do something like a "Video of the week" or something like that for each character, and we break it down.

 

I dunno, either way, I like the idea of having a more focused approach to videos and how they're presented, instead of just listing them and saying "HERE YOU GO!"

[Tari]

I was reminded of this post from a few years ago: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php/topic/4133-my-ky-trade-secrets-thread/?p=500356

 

I'm unaware of how likely a new player is to reflect on their matches, but fostering that type of discussion can only be a good thing, and will probably provide another source of community discussion that can help keep the board active.

 

 

 

I support this idea. Even if we don't want to go into it 100% by replacing the mega threads, we could do something like a "Video of the week" or something like that for each character, and we break it down.

 

I dunno, either way, I like the idea of having a more focused approach to videos and how they're presented, instead of just listing them and saying "HERE YOU GO!"

 

 

On a personal level, this sounds far more feasible to me, and still sounds useful.

[Poultrygeist]

I support this idea. Even if we don't want to go into it 100% by replacing the mega threads, we could do something like a "Video of the week" or something like that for each character, and we break it down.

 

I dunno, either way, I like the idea of having a more focused approach to videos and how they're presented, instead of just listing them and saying "HERE YOU GO!"

I don't know how many of you have read the footsies handbook on SonicHurricane (http://sonichurricane.com/?page_id=1702) but here and there it will link you to specific match vids that demonstrate specific things that they want to bring to your attention.  Maybe instead of just dumping a bunch of videos, we can make sure to highlight ones that do this?  Like if there's a specific thing a player does with their character, include a video that very specifically demonstrates it well?

[skd]

I don't know how many of you have read the footsies handbook on SonicHurricane (http://sonichurricane.com/?page_id=1702) but here and there it will link you to specific match vids that demonstrate specific things that they want to bring to your attention.  Maybe instead of just dumping a bunch of videos, we can make sure to highlight ones that do this?  Like if there's a specific thing a player does with their character, include a video that very specifically demonstrates it well?

 

yeah, i think organization in this fashion is important. accessibility is really important when conveying abstract ideas, so lets try to make that easy.

 

on that note, i am doing a weekly content roundup. at the very least, ill have a match analysis up every week, but i'm thinking about the audience. I could do a really deep match analysis, even keep it concise but it would probably go over a lot of heads.

 

And picking a high level match and only explaining a shallow portion of it would probably leave many people wondering whats up with everything else.

 

On top of a high level match analysis, should I also cover a beginner / midlevel match? Or just keep the interpretation of the match light?

[Tari]

yeah, i think organization in this fashion is important. accessibility is really important when conveying abstract ideas, so lets try to make that easy.

 

on that note, i am doing a weekly content roundup. at the very least, ill have a match analysis up every week, but i'm thinking about the audience. I could do a really deep match analysis, even keep it concise but it would probably go over a lot of heads.

 

And picking a high level match and only explaining a shallow portion of it would probably leave many people wondering whats up with everything else.

 

On top of a high level match analysis, should I also cover a beginner / midlevel match? Or just keep the interpretation of the match light?

If you're choosing between the two options, I'd opt for also covering a lower level match. While high level match analysis is useful, it's often full of concepts and situations that lower level players won't experience or be able to use in their matches.

This is in part why I say the video megathread is still a useful resource, even if it's clunky and requires effort from users. Mid level players can still pop it open, find mid level matches to watch, and look to see how other players deal with similar problems.

Sorting the videos into matchup threads may work, but that sounds a bit clunky from a different perspective. I rather like being able to pop open a single list on say, my phone, and open match after match as I want to without having to navigate through multiple webpages.

[LunaKage]

I think we have Beginner and Mid Level matches covered with the critique threads, since that's much more direct. At the same time though, those are worthless if no one actually posts their matches for critique.

[Tari]

I think we have Beginner and Mid Level matches covered with the critique threads, since that's much more direct. At the same time though, those are worthless if no one actually posts their matches for critique.

I think there's room for a separate thread for player feedback. Providing match analysis of selected mid-level matches can only be helpful, in my opinion.

On top of that, I think it's more likely (maybe?) for players to post their losses and ask for help than to post what might be considered a fairly even or well executed match for analysis.

[skd]

My idea for an analysis thread wouldn't be exclusively for high level analysis, despite what i kind of set up in the OP.

 

i'd love for low/midlevel players to post videos and their interpretations to talk about. That stuff is useful to read. In fact, if someone offers an analysis of a match that they dont even play in, it says a lot. You dont even need footage of them to give them pointers! Hopefully I can get someone to get the ball rolling in that sense.

 

RE: Sorting of the video threads, yeah. I think getting rid of it entirely is kind of crazy, so I archived it. Wanted to see how it'd feel using the matchups subforums, since those get literally 0 traffic, but I'll probably go back to having a separated megathread with note that it is intended to be supplementary to the analysis thread.

 

Ideally, at the start of the video analysis thread i'd like to have a collection of matches in a single post to work off of, its still a fledgling at the moment. I might even take matches that distinctly show what /not/ to do of players who have posted their own matches in the thread, and accompanying analysis (i should probably ask first lol). But still, hand picked is key IMO.

[LunaKage]

So are we wanting this to be a big thread in one subforum, not limited to character choice?

 

I'd gladly participate, on both sides of the coin.

[Tari]

I think it makes more sense in a character specific forum. Sounds too messy from a general forum perspective. It may be interesting to highlight an analysis in a general forum or otherwise more public form each week as well, though. Food for thought.

[DJ_Blactricity]

yeah, i think organization in this fashion is important. accessibility is really important when conveying abstract ideas, so lets try to make that easy.

 

on that note, i am doing a weekly content roundup. at the very least, ill have a match analysis up every week, but i'm thinking about the audience. I could do a really deep match analysis, even keep it concise but it would probably go over a lot of heads.

 

And picking a high level match and only explaining a shallow portion of it would probably leave many people wondering whats up with everything else.

 

On top of a high level match analysis, should I also cover a beginner / midlevel match? Or just keep the interpretation of the match light?

I love this idea, but I think you should change it up just a little bit. First, lay the ground work. Explain the concepts that will go over people's head first. It doesn't have to be an in-depth explanation because video analysis will show it in practice. If you want to facilitate discussion, don't post your analysis immediately. Instead, post the videos you will be analyzing early, and let the players try their hand at analysis. This lets you see common things players miss or don't give enough attention too. You can use it as a teaching method by picking videos where different parts of the game were emphasized or demonstrated well. This would work great for the critique thread as well. Any player that posts a vid would have to give their own self-analysis first. Others could tackle it as well. I think low level/mid level/high level videos would be needed. Maybe pick out a specific matchup, and have videos from each level. That way you can compare/contrast the things that go on at different levels.

[Myoro]

Since the only thing we seem to know for sure is that DL is going to still act as an informational hub and archive, some ideas to make it (even more) functionally superior, organized, and accessible to other potential archives could help.

 

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I like this a lot too, I'd really like to see it implemented. Reading it also gave me some other inspiration for potential changes to the site in general.

 

First has to do with the proposed video threads. If my understanding is correct, you wish to showcase examples of different types of game-play/situations/etc., rather than shotgunning the average forum goer with hours of raw information without any given label to hint toward the various merits that are presented within.

 

While I think that's a pretty great idea and the videos presented and explained by pro's would be an invaluable asset, I'd also like to keep the huge pools of video material that don't get tagged for something in particular somewhere within the topic. (Be it within a secondary link or a spoiler box or whatever works.)

 

If people were willing to put even more work into it, it'd be cool to give order to those pools of videos as well, by date, edition, location, tourney title, or whatever criteria searched. Kinda like a video library. A poster could even bookmark or favorite videos on the site if possible or attach personal notes that only they could see (like "Show this to Person A" or "They played a great neutral game in this one" or whatever have you.) if those sorts of things wouldn't be too hard to program. If something like that was added I there's a ton of room for it to be even more useful.

 

As pointed out in the tweet, most of the videos are of JP players. Logically there's mostly JP commentary and JP gameplay. This isn't bad per-se but not everyone understands Japanese and understandable commentary is actually super useful. Also, call me crazy, but I've noticed that the way people play the games is super different depending on where they are, and I've seen a lot of merit come from each area I've watched. (For instance, some of the best Terumi play I've seen came out of a tourney in Mexico for whatever reason.) Passed a certain level of play, there should definitely be videos from wherever we can get them. The trouble I suppose is drawing the line at what level of play is permissible to put in there.

 

Another idea which would be a bit of an effort to implement is hyperlinking all of the combo notations in the various combo threads to a small clip of them being preformed. That'd be quite a task unto itself.

 

Now onto the bottom line. There's gonna be a incredible mess of work if even a few recommendations get adopted. In the tweet it was mentioned that Mods (and I assume Admins) have a tedious, frustrating, and often repetitive line of work as it is. If there's going to be some mass changes of any kind to the programming or format of the site and if something like it isn't already in place, it might be beneficial to set up and strongly advertise a volunteer thread to spread out and ease the workload. Posted there in detail, could be tasks that need to be done and generous people could offer to help with them. If enough interest is created to where such a system could be justified the volunteers wouldn't have to be made mod to make changes and help out, but if the problem if the problem becomes "what if we leave them unchecked they do some horrible stuff to our website", one could just make it so a mod or Admin has to preview and sign off on a change apply it.

 

Just brainstorming right now, but let me know what y'all think of all of this.

 

EDIT: While writing this, unbeknownst to me, a whole new page of this thread cropped up. If I said something redundant or incorrect, forgive me, I'll be editing it again momentarily.