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"Understand the Past, Gain the Future": Dustloop Revamp General

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I think the wiki should give a general idea on specific characters, but yea anything that's subjective or can be contested should be saved for forum posts.

Combos are pretty concrete for the most part, yea you have more optimal routes and the like, but the combo theory itself doesn't really change. So those can go on the wiki.

Strategy is a bit murky as its matchup dependent, but the wiki should at least cover the basics of playing the character.

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After the front page thread is over, could we have another discussion on JUST mods? I think that's the next step for dustloop. 

 

Not only do we need active mods, they also need to be competent and ALL on the same page. Ragna forums can't have everything done one way and Jins do everything another way. The problem I'm seeing is inconsistency all through the character forums along with inactivity. 

How is it that Faust Combo sticky is empty almost a year in? There's a normal thread that has more combos but it's disorganized. 

 

In regards to dealing with power users, I actually do NOT see the problem with just handling them like every other forum does. Warning > Bigger Warning/Small ban > Mega Ban.

 

 

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I mean for strategy, it's not hard to just say a basic gameplan.

Like, let's take Millia for example, the wiki should def have a paragraph saying "Millia wants to knock people down, here's how, here's some of her more prominent tools to use in neutral blah". Then have a section for the various ender > oki set ups and the basic idea of how to use them. I'm pretty sure an evernote or thread OP already lists a lot of the general stuff you will use as Millia. There's not much more to discuss on that other than when to use what, but that falls under critical thinking and should be in the forum.

I really don't feel like that's unreasonable.

On a tangent to this I also believe this helps people discuss things in a more positive way. Like, people look for answer x for problem y and they just do that forever until they think they have all the answers. Then they spend so much time talking about that, that they never learn how to use the answers and miss out on critical thinking skills and discussion is a never ending loop of rediscovering information. Again, I'd rather just tone down the raw information in discussion and focus the threads on more open ended thinking. Part of that is just me thinking we're doing a disservice to learning players by throwing up all that information in a space where they should really be talking about how to play a fighting game vs another human being.

The more logical part is that frees up space to breathe and be a little looser in conversation. It also frees up some space to have gen threads. I'm to the point where if there's breathing room and info isn't being buried, I don't mind BS threads that exist as long as they're talking about the game and within the rules.

Edited by Anne

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The wiki's greatest strength is the fact that it can be edited at any time, by anyone. If you ignore that, all you're doing is just another thread, just on a different part of the site.

It's a weakness as well because you never know how credible on the wiki the information could be.

 

Wiki as a store front? I thought the idea behind this new forum was to try to bring back and attract more players into discussions. How can be that accomplished having the forum as a second plan?

I think the idea of having the Forums as means to an end (Wiki) will negatively affect the activity it performance even more.

Edited by Tong

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It's a weakness as well because you never know how credible on the wiki the information could be.

 

Wiki as a store front? I thought the idea behind this new forum was to try to bring back and attract more players into discussions. How can be that accomplished having the forum as a second plan?

I think the idea of having the Forums as means to an end (Wiki) will negatively affect the activity it performance even more.

The problem with the forums has been mentioned by Anne many times; stuff gets buried and hard to find. I can go on to Mizuumi's Melty Blood character pages and they will generally contain some basic strategy for a character like approach, oki, tech traps and general character advice.

http://wiki.mizuumi.net/w/Melty_Blood/Roa/PS2

The irony here being that all the detail is for the PS2 melty blood which - while still has many similarities - isn't the same as the current AACC. But you get the idea about what kind of detail you can go into. Just a matter of being kept up to date.

Honestly i even think some basic matchup details could be on there as well. Whats good at round start or something like IB 5K with Sin to stop Axl sparrowhawk. Just minor things that are known to work.

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The problem with the forums has been mentioned by Anne many times; stuff gets buried and hard to find.

This happens because for some reason people just post whatever they want in General Threads instead of creating new topics like back then.

It's like people are afraid of creating new topics about new subjects and stick to the classic "combo/general/video/matchup" forum format ;)

Edited by Tong

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Random criticisms and ideas:

Reputation systems: they are bad and rightfully on the decline. Rather than responding to the quality of a post itself, a rep system just tempts people to dismiss the opinions of others without actually evaluating the merits of their point.

 

Listing number of posts under your name: dumb for the same reason that rep systems are dumb. How many posts people have made doesn’t necessarily relate to the quality of their argument.

 

Role of the wiki vs. ‘informational’ threads: there’s too much effort being put forth to ‘curate’ informational threads (character x’s combo thread, video thread, etc.) which stifles discussion. The wiki is for clean curated vetted information. Let people talk more freely and more people will talk more often. Loosen up in the forums a bit.

 

Over-compartmentalization: in general, there are WAY too many subforums for the amount of posting that occurs on dustloop. For example, there are subforums for each character’s match-ups so there’s a thread in the Zato match-up subforum for Zato vs. Faust and there’s a separate thread in the Faust match-up subforum for the exact same match up. The former has a bunch of Zato players talking in a vacuum about the match-up while the latter has Faust players talking in a vacuum about the same match-up. Why isn’t there a single thread where Zato players AND Faust players would go to debate about the match-up together? Aside from the discussion being a single consolidated place, having both sides (i.e., people who main each of the characters involved) in a single place would generate better information AND more of it.


Seriously- just have a grid or something:

 

Screenshot_2015-08-04_at_11.25.56_AM.thu

 
I made it in like 5 min in google docs, but you get the idea. Clicking on a the diamond would be bring you to the relevant match-up discussion. Have the diamond changed to a star or something if there are new posts since you last checked. If you leave your mouse over a star for a second, a tool-tip pops up telling you how many new posts, who made the most recent post and when, etc.

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It's a weakness as well because you never know how credible on the wiki the information could be.

The wiki is checked pretty regularly and if anyone dicks around with it, it can be easily reverted to an older version. I don't really think there's much of an issue with the reliability of the wiki. I can understand misgivings due to the nature of wikis themselves, especially open edit ones, but you have quite a few people good at testing and who are character nerds in general. It's not always 100% accurate due to mistakes that happen like there being errors in mook data (or no mook data), but a lot of that also gets fixed after the fact when people to get around to testing.

After the front page thread is over, could we have another discussion on JUST mods? I think that's the next step for dustloop. 

 

Not only do we need active mods, they also need to be competent and ALL on the same page. Ragna forums can't have everything done one way and Jins do everything another way. The problem I'm seeing is inconsistency all through the character forums along with inactivity. 

How is it that Faust Combo sticky is empty almost a year in? There's a normal thread that has more combos but it's disorganized. 

 

In regards to dealing with power users, I actually do NOT see the problem with just handling them like every other forum does. Warning > Bigger Warning/Small ban > Mega Ban.

 

 

I believe the next focused thread is supposed to get feedback on the MU threads problem. The current concensus is to just throw all the threads into one subforum but there's some contention as to the details, so the idea is to hear feedback on that first.

IMO it's better to give each character subforum to make resources as they see fit, especially with how varied ASW characters are. Styling consistency is one thing, but resources that would be helpful for one character (IE- Optimizing off of IOH) would be totally irrelevant to another character.

Inactivity is another thing. I mean, yeah we should try to mitigate neglect done by inactivity, but some characters have low player pools and no one who cares enough to do mod work. If you do think you can do a better job, the appropriate thing is to speak up or give suggestions.

Currently the infraction system works like that. Basically, infractions are more formalized warnings. If you somehow get 5 points (which is extremely hard to do unless you're an extremely chronic user or go on some kind of shitposting rampage) then you get banned. But most of the time unless you do something extremely stupid, verbal warnings will be given ahead of time and depending on how lenient the mod is, multiple times.

I can agree that having a more standardized procedure would make things easier for everyone and keep people from getting their panties in a knot when infracted, but despite the impression of the moderation being tyrants, it's actually pretty hard to get banned. In my time as mod (5+ years) only a handful of people have been banned and I've personally handed out a total of three, maybe four infractions.

 

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Zissou's idea on how to handle MU threads is godlike. Implement that for the love of everything and consolidate them in a forum somewhere. The forum will be crowded, but if you stick that super easy navigation tool on the front of it that problem goes away. Just make a MU subforum for each game that should have one.

Edit: Just make an image that's easier to read, call Dawn or somebody.

Edited by Anne

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Lol. That's the idea that's been in the works. The only thing is the details. IE: will there be a Sol vs. Ky thread or just a Sol thread? But a thread should go up today or tomorrow to discuss that, so feel free to brainstorm ideas.

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Also, what about characters guides? I think guides can be better presented in a forum than a wiki, and there's always space to discuss and ask questions, and will surely improve activity. Examples:

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Lol. That's the idea that's been in the works. The only thing is the details. IE: will there be a Sol vs. Ky thread or just a Sol thread? But a thread should go up today or tomorrow to discuss that, so feel free to brainstorm ideas.

I was thinking one thread per unique match-up, i.e., one thread for Sol vs. Millia (where presently there are two: one in the Millia subforum and one in the Sol subforum). Just having a "Sol Match-up Thread" "Millia Match-up Thread" etc. would recreate one of the current problems which is the discussion on ONE match-up (Sol vs. Millia, in this example) occurring in two separate places (both the Sol MU thread AND the Millia MU thread).

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Huh. That's actually a fair point. The idea of just one thread was to mitigate the number of threads that would need to be managed, but you're right that it'd result in the same problem.

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I mean, if somebody wants to make a guide, they'll make a guide and post it and it'll be fine. Fuck it, make a header on the wiki of links to resources that are deemed very helpful/important. It's a bit redundant, but I mean that way people reading the wiki will be able to just find it from there without having to dig through the forum. If it is a forum thread, they'll get linked to the forum where they can post about it.

I mean I think I've said like everything I've needed to say about the ideal split between the forum/wiki and the best ways to use both.

Edited by Anne

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Excuse my lack in digging for any prior info, I'm just skimming and wanted to throw in an idea that may or may not have been suggested already?

- 1 Thread in your character board.

- The thread can be titled just "Match Ups".

- The thread would be where players of different characters swing by (visit) and explain/post how they deal with your character and also their thoughts on the character they play regarding weakness and stuff that goes against them... ? Info can be discussed on that thread between users of all characters and info can be taken and posted to other boards' similar thread if need be.

- Key points are taken and written up into one main post/OP broken up into character sections like "Vs so and so"... Then again having one person try and maintain all the info flying about would be an arduous task so really a wiki approach would be better in that respect? Tried to make a rush example below anyway. Thread creators could communicate how they can share similar combined info may be.

 

[info=Match Ups OP/Main Post]

- Vs Ragna:

What he can do:

What we can do:

Summary if desired/needed:

 

- Vs Noel

etc.

 

- So on

 

[/info]

 

Plus I don't think I explained my thoughts well because of rushing my posts. Just an idea to reduce number of threads across the forum, plus I think my idea may be far fetched.

 

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@gamester: it would reduce the number of MU threads but again recreate the existing problem of having more than one place do discuss just one MU. You mention "Info can be discussed on that thread between users of all characters and info can be taken and posted to other boards' similar thread if need be" but why create a organizational system where such a thing would be required in the first place?

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You are correct. It doesn't solve the problem, it's only a means to an end :)

(Btw I apologise for my long posts but I find it difficult to explain things in my head, I'm just throwing ideas out and my post is also very messy ;_; )

 

I'm understanding the problem some more now but don't feel there is an exact solution to solve this I see a lot of attention on, this problem is only leading everyone in circles. We could just be-rid ourselves of the match up threads altogether and instead just have the odd discussion crop up in your characters general discussion thread if you wish to discuss a match up. If it crops up again people who were in previous conversations can explain or link to prior posts again.

 

I guess you could have only one of each match up thread somewhere on the forum then (in a new sub board or something). There will be a lot of threads in that one area though, but you'll get what you want for discussing just one match up and for all possibilities.

- Doesn't sound efficient/effective scrolling through pages to find your match up on page 3 of 6 though.

 

There is another idea but it will cause havoc lol. Have only one thread then. Everyone uses it for all characters and I guess you'll have to rely on Mods to review the board regularly and then edit the OP/Main Post adding details for each section as a combined effort.

-Problem then is that they'll have more work on their plate, info is all combined in one area and will needed to be sifted through and placed into a super post structure. It won't be efficient and problems will always happen.

 

I have another idea in mind which is long winded and probably not worth explaining. I'm not very good at wording things anyway, I'm better with real life examples/physical material or speech even lol.

 

But something else has cropped into my mind while posting all this gibberish in my head haha.

- Look at our existing model and build upon it. We could move all the match videos by character into those currently existing match up threads and then threads won't be unread/forgotten/un-posted in. You could also merge that match analysis idea SKD used in his Izayoi video thread to make the match up threads more productive, effective and efficient. 

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Well at the moment when i look through the matchup threads i always look through by MyChar vs OppChar and also the invserse, since you can see what the players of OppChar are having trouble dealing with. Like i never would have known about something like Sin 5K at round start to start Venom 2S if i didn't check the Venom forum.

So i'm in agreement with consolidating matchup threads.

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Zissou's idea on how to handle the matchup threads is perfect in my opinion. I don't think it would be hard to pull off either, so we should totally get on that.

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I also like the new MU idea.  This will get character discussion out of its current vacuum.  Only potential problem I see is when there's mutual loathing of characters there could be some nastiness and there might be a greater need for mods to get involved.

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You're going to have that kind of problem every once in awhile. I can at least assume that if the player knows what they are talking about, they will at least have enough respect to keep those kind of comments to a minimum. I have experience in this, since I hate fighting pretty much every character lol.

When that kind of stuff happens, the mods can handle it.

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Yeah, so the buried content problem:  Things that get posted in threads or news feeds tend to get lost and are often difficult to find after a period of time.  Even for the well saved items visibility becomes diminished.   For example: Remember Guilty Bits?  That's a great guilty gear resource!  But, where are you going to find out about it without extensive searching and luck?  The various tutorial videos aren't really well organized and often fall through the cracks.

Perhaps we can have the mods do some curating and place all the info from threads, videos, etc, into a well organized dustloop site; a repository of info for all skill levels.  Of course, that could create some issues with mods offending people by picking up their content...maybe we could give users gold stars for generating content that get's immortalized by the mods.

 

Anyways, that's my thought.  Build an addition to the dustloop site that is a mod maintained repository of general information and content that's normally lost or forgotten - and make It well laid out.  A third tier of dustloop to compliment the forums and wiki.  This would be quite the project though. 

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We shall call it, the Wiki!

 

Dont really get how it's different though. Do you mean just a random info dump where you chuck anything that might be relevant there? So where the wiki is a very organized structuure this would be a place to throw DL posts, tweets and evernotes that are useful?

Edited by Mai-ah

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We shall call it, the Wiki!

 

Dont really get how it's different though. Do you mean just a random info dump where you chuck anything that might be relevant there? So where the wiki is a very organized structuure this would be a place to throw DL posts, tweets and evernotes that are useful?

A bit different.  The wiki is a user editable resource that's game specific, and it also has a general wiki structure.  What I'm thinking of is something a bit more organized; rather than have random users drive-by edit the wiki and add in what-ever they feel like, we could have mods obtain and store useful information from content creators that should be preserved and easily accessible, but may in reality become lost to time.  Tutorials are a big one; such as text guides or videos.  Other interesting or useful information could be stored as well; such as upcoming release dates and so on.  Basically, I'm thinking of a resource that would host the information that normally doesn't get saved by the wiki, and would promote (or at least make easy to find) information fans (particularly new ones) would normally have difficult even being aware of without trolling the entire forum archive.

The wiki is a good resource, don't get me wrong, but ultimately we need to make sure we save and keep content and the wiki isn't 100% reliable for that.

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