Terumi (CF Changes)

[LaowPing]

So no more A super stomps, RC, taunt combos? I'm sad.

[Fame96]

 

More changes have arrived, unless the changes intervene with the others I have posted before, I am going to assume that specific part didn’t change from last loketest.

Previous loketest breakdown here:http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/forums/topic/11216-terumi-cf-changes/&do=findComment&comment=937795

1.      Meter gain for D moves: 5D = 16; 4D = 13 on hit/8 on block; 6D = 30; j.D = 18

·         These are generally all small buffs to his drive footsies and very slight buffs to his meter gain to his combos. The nerf to his J.D is also possibly busted but we’ll use when the game is released. Overall I like these buffs.

2.      2D, j.2D and 214D remain unchanged from CP2

·         He is referencing to heat gain, so nothing too important here.

 

3.      4D: around 8~9f startup; flies upwards like 6A on hit; special/jump cancelable on hit and block; connects from 5/2ABC

·         DAMNIT! It’s not a low! At least it is a really fast drive normal and is jump and special cancelable. Making it very useful in pressure and combos. Please make it a low arcs sys ;~;

 

4.      214C (Tsuishouga): overhead; super cancelable; N combo starter value; if the opponent is high enough in the air you can 2B/3C after.  around -4 on block; knockbacks far away on block

·         Overall it seems like a decent overhead. Somewhat safe on block, good starter, and good corner combo filler. Now it just depends on how fast it is. If we can get it somewhere in the low 20s we’ll be set.

 

5.      6C has less total duration (2nd/3rd hits are faster); harder to punish on block; bounces on both ground and air hit; deals 1013 dmg

·         Similar to what I said before, just more confirmation now. Overall great change.

 

6.      6D floats less on hit; 6D > 5A possible; if high enough in the air you can even 5B/4D follow-up; deals 946 dmg

·         I would say this is a nerf but 4D exists now, meaning that you can convert better off of 6D better no matter how far in the combo you are. Hopefully it applies to the OD version too so we don’t have to worry about 236D whiffing.

 

7.      j.2D is a mid; around +3 on block; 5C (1) > j.2D > 5B loop works even on standing hurtbox

·         We got the 1.0 loop back! Hype! J.2D is back to it’s former glory, just not an overhead anymore

 

8.      j.D CH bounces less; untechable until landing

·         This seems like a buff to me. J.D CH bounce now is pretty inconsistent with the confirms you can get. The lower bounce and untechable until landing should make some confirms more consistent.

 

9.      236D deals 1091 dmg; opponent flies away on air hit instead of being pulled back. If hit high enough in the air while in the corner, you can follow up with 5B and other moves

·         Damage buff along with new corner confirms. I’m pretty sure the reason they did this is because they needed to give us something to extend combos when we already used the overhead early. Now that we got some more info on it. I’m content with this change.

Example combo from notes: 5B>5C>3C>22C lvl 2>236D(1 hit)>5B>5D>6D 3200

 

10.  22C can't be followed up with normals even in the corner; is special/super/CT/OD cancelable

·         CT, Special, Super, and OD CANCELABLE?!?! 0_0 Wow. I can’t wait to see the combo videos now. He’s already doing more damage than he is now.

Main combo now: 5B>5C>3C>22C lvl 2>5B>5C>2C>5D>6D>236D 3.7K

New possible route in CF: 5B>5C>3C>22C lvl 2>214C>3C>5D>6D>5B>5C>3C>5D>6C 3.8K

This most likely isn’t even an optimized route. The only thing I may be concerned about are the midscreen damage routes, but again I’ll wait until release to judge that.

 

11.  41236C has a Moment combo starter value; now FCs; both versions only have projectile invul now. Can easily be followed up with 5B; air ver. can't be followed up; when blocked you're glued to the enemy (easily punishable) air ver. damage increased to around 2,4k.

·         RIP Messenga spam. You will be missed. Messenga still fulfills its main purpose as an anti-zoning tool and long range whiff punisher, but I will admit that the moment starter is a bit excessive. Fatal counter buff feels random with the fact that it is such a bad starter. His biggest nerf at the moment.

 

12.  63214A: 2nd hit doesn't have super long untech time; dmg increased to 2253

·         RIP Taunt combos!

 

13.  63214B: only hits 4 times now; can be followed up with 5C, 5D, etc

·         Even shorter animation time than the last loketest. Hopefully it still kept the midscreen wall bounce from last loketest too.

 

14.  236236A damage decreased to 2800

·         No more one shooting unless you get active flow. It still bugs me that they nerfed the damage and didn’t make the counter less situational.

 

15.  CT is around -4 on block

·         Same as it is now on block, just MUCH faster at minimum charge and harder to capitalize on the guard break unless you charge it.

 

16.  623B damage decreased to 2315 from 2486

·         Not sure why they felt like they needed to nerf this super but oh well roll with it.

Overall

Most of the changes Terumi needed. There was absolutely no reason why the man shouldn’t have had a standing overhead, especially considering that he was a rushdown character. This new overhead isn’t the greatest thing in the world, but it is a welcome addition. I’m really bummed out that it seems that 4D isn’t a low, still a welcome move due to its speed and cancelablility. J.2D being almost fully restored to its former glory is awesome and we have our old pressure and combo tool back. 6C buff was nice since we could get better oki off of it. Whatever or not we get better combos remains to be seen. The changes to 236D and 22C are also very welcome in my book.

Then at same time he got some nerfs. One justified and the rest questionable. Say what you want, but the messenga nerfs kind of needed to happen, some of them at least. I agree that you should always get consistent punishes if you block it. The way it acts on block right now is kinda BS, especially the air version. Now what I don’t agree with is everything else. No more strike invuln, moment starter (somewhat remedied by increased untech time and FC property), air version can’t be followed up (although this is somewhat remedied by the damage increase.). They went a little too ham on messenga.

The damage decreases on varies other moves is whatever honestly. It’s shown that it doesn’t affect his average damage output too much.

Do I think Terumi is decent now? Yeah it looks that way. A lot of his buffs were to his pressure, mixup, and combo damage. His new moves, 236D change, J.2D change, and the 22C change increase his damge output and give him new combo paths. 214C, 4D, and the J.2D buff help give his pressure alittle bit of a buff.

Do I think that he is really good now? Hell no.

Why? There were a few issues that were not addressed: Terumi’s 2D, 214D, Jarin, and his counter super. His command grab is still pretty bad unless they didn’t test it out and it secretly got buffed. With the way his routes are looking. 2D just got even worse. No one tested jarin and I’m going to assume his counter super is still ass. While Terumi is much better off than he was before, he still needs some tweaks before he can achieve greatness.

[heavymetalmixer]

The change to 63214B makes me think that it's a nerf, if each hit is as fast as it was before of course, because that would mean that something like 63214B > 66 3C > 5D > 6D > 236D will give almost no meter.

[Fame96]

9 minutes ago, heavymetalmixer said:

The change to 63214B makes me think that it's a nerf, if each hit is as fast as it was before of course, because that would mean that something like 63214B > 66 3C > 5D > 6D > 236D will give almost no meter.

It does less hits and reduced animation time but it still does the same damage as it does now, meaning you have more time to beat the crap out of your opponent and get your meter back after the super. It's a buff in my opinion but we'll see at release 

[Omortus]

First impression of the changes kind of confirms my theory that Terumi's designed to be a gimmick character; he gets a little more legit with standing overhead and FC Massenga, but kind of loses it with the other changes like 236D and 6D. He'll be very good at launch when everyone's learning the game, then he'll probably suck after people figure out how to fight him and his popular tricks. I had a big study of J Ansen's 50 minute match compilation against a Ragna, but unfortunately lost it from not saving it correctly and lost the motivation to rewrite it. TLDR though is that he looked godlike playing Terumi for the first five or so matches, and then gets shut down hard when the opponent starts figuring out all his tricks (Fun fact: J Ansen's 2D had 0% success rate, was always countered when possible). I feel like it won't be different for CF.

214C has potential for mid-combo resets that you'll be able to abuse early since people won't know how to block high against Terumi at first. If you're not into gimmicks, then you'll probably want to abuse 6B and j2D frametraps with throw mixups. Other than that, I think I gotta wait and see what his bread and butters are supposed to be now with some of the goofy changes.

[TD]

Honestly looks like he's being more rewarded for using normals and command normals. Like his normals have gotten stronger and supers are even more of combo filler their particular niches are nerfed (623b and 236236a doing less damage even though they are almost purely defensive options; messenga being an offensive attack and losing offensive properties). Will he still be low tier? Yes but I think he's a little stronger than currently... Definitely.

[Myoro]

I think I can explain Messenga's picking up fatal property. If I recall the way BBCF counters and fatal counters work correctly, counter hit boosts the damage of the first hit by 10% and a fatal counter boosts the first three hits by 10%.

A fatal Messenga could prolly be confirmed into Soutenjin or what have you for additional unburstable damage or something.

[Fame96]

4 hours ago, TD said:

Honestly looks like he's being more rewarded for using normals and command normals. Like his normals have gotten stronger and supers are even more of combo filler their particular niches are nerfed (623b and 236236a doing less damage even though they are almost purely defensive options; messenga being an offensive attack and losing offensive properties). Will he still be low tier? Yes but I think he's a little stronger than currently... Definitely.

Honestly from the looks of things, this is literally a mix of all 3 versions of terumi with 2 new moves and some small tweaks. He got the damage potential of 1.0, a mix of 1.1 and 2.0 neutral (5D and possibly J.D is better but snake bite is still wacky), and 1.1's pressure game with a different overhead, an additional jump cancel option, and a CT that aren't complete shit.

What is really bugging me here is that they didn't deal with one of the elephants in the room. They didn't touch on command grab's startup, damage potential, or starter value at all. All they would have to do is make it a reskin of tsubaki's command grab, only difference being that his is super cancelable and gives him heat instead of install gauge.

[Omortus]

Found this in the CF News/Gameplay thread, posting it here for some more exposure. Mitsurugi's thoughts on Terumi:

https://www.evernote.com/shard/s660/sh/60bcf7c3-9fbc-4345-97e5-4a35e48cd036/fcb8fe6db58eae3206d730f6b27dd236

Quote

 

Terumi

Rating: 8

 

With the addition of his new special move, he finally has an overhead. Its startup is pretty fast too. I think that this character having an actual overhead is big to him. He's also able to keep pressuring his opponent by using his j.2D, which is advantageous on block now, so I believe he's stronger now as a close-ranged character. Though, it leaves me a bit uneasy that his Messenga is only invulnerable to projectiles now. I don't know about him being strong or weak, but he looks more like an actual BlazBlue character now? Ultimately, I'll probably end up using Hazama, but Terumi might be my main character this time around. (Mitsurugi)

 

I think the ratings are out of 10. Basically what most of us have concluded; overhead and more frametraps is awesome, Massenga sucks as a reversal now.

[Fame96]

But messenga was never really a reversal to begin with..........

[LaowPing]

22 hours ago, Fame96 said:

But messenga was never really a reversal to begin with..........

it was more of "get-out-of-pressure-for-free move. If there was ever a gap you got out and even when blocked, it was almost unpunished.

[Fame96]

4 hours ago, LaowPing said:

it was more of "get-out-of-pressure-for-free move. If there was ever a gap you got out and even when blocked, it was almost unpunished.

That was mostly because no one practiced how to punish it. Plenty of characters had answers. Since Terumi was ass and no one good used him much. No one bothered to learn how.

[CharlieDowncast]

Are driveloops possible in CF?

[LaowPing]

24 minutes ago, Fame96 said:

That was mostly because no one practiced how to punish it. Plenty of characters had answers. Since Terumi was ass and no one good used him much. No one bothered to learn how.

Such as? I know Noel can beat it with 4D but other than that what punishes it? Even though Terumi was low tier everyone still knew about Messenga, especially on net play.

[heavymetalmixer]

1 hour ago, CharlieDowncast said:

Are driveloops possible in CF?

We don't know yet, but possibly not.

[Fame96]

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1snsvq7

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1snt3rp

First link is a list of questions me and another terumi player asked about. The second link is the answers to said questions.

[heavymetalmixer]

New loops niggas :v

 

https://twitter.com/416_persona/status/667343393245171712

[Fame96]

1 hour ago, LaowPing said:

Such as? I know Noel can beat it with 4D but other than that what punishes it? Even though Terumi was low tier everyone still knew about Messenga, especially on net play.

Jin- Gale on reaction (both messengas get beat), barrier block 665B (ground messenga), On IB he can get 5C

Azrael- 6A (both messengas)

Ragna- 5B on block (ground version), 6A on reaction to flash (air messenga)

kokonoe- 6A (air messenga)

izayoi- 236236C on block (strict, ground messenga)

tager- barrier block 360B or 720C

Keep in mind that ground messenga is -9 on block and the pushback can be reduced by barriering at the cost of making it -8 on block. The timing for the punishes can be weird at first but it is completely possible on netplay. This obviously isn't all of them but hopefully i got my point across.

 

[Poultrygeist]

Pretty sure Relius can 5B to punish messenga, but I've (surprisingly) never fought a Terumi dumb enough or YOLO enough to just throw it out during my pressure like that.

[heavymetalmixer]

Now we found a use for the new 22C and 236

 

https://twitter.com/pan_hnprlw/status/667631269988032514

[Calamitus]

I think we need to make CF Terumi General Discussion Thread and CF Terumi Video Thread.

[heavymetalmixer]

13 minutes ago, Calamitus said:

I think we need to make CF Terumi General Discussion Thread and CF Terumi Video Thread.

Today I'll finally be free from a lot of stress, so maybe I'll be posting videos again, maybe make the new video thread.

[Fame96]

CF Terumi combo Evernote from gurafuu on Twitter. It's been getting updated more as time passes. 

Buuuutttt, not translated ;~;

[heavymetalmixer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKnD9pXv2QQ&t=16m
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKnD9pXv2QQ&t=18m18s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKnD9pXv2QQ&t=20m19s
Messenga is still followable, I don't how hard it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOrqlcoG1DU&t=1h29m56s
4D has a short whiff recovery, so in this video is used to "whiff cancel" the
blockstring (something we the Melty Blood players know very well).

EDIT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnqUZYbreJ0&t=1h43m46s

Looks like the 5A > 4D combo is kinda hard. maybe replacing 4D with 5C should make it easier.

 

[Danaiden]

Seems that it is not possible to do Gouga Soutenjin on reaction to avoid Exceed Accels (at least Ragnas):

Either I missed something regarding EA or 623B or Seed of Tartarus' hitbox is just too big and hits Terumi on the first frames after the invincibility ends.
Oh and Terumi finally got some character specific voices against Ragna, at least in his win pose and during Jabaku Fuuenjin. Against Hazama too.

And yeah, the General Discussion and Combo Threads are still missing...