Xrd Slayer Wiki and Q&A

[daymendou]

Thread for discussing updates for the Slayer wiki page and random Q&A/FAQ

I'll try to gather some basic information in this post

Dustloop Wiki: www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=GGXRD/Slayer

 

Players to watch

Mikado - Tokyo - twitch.tv/joniosan

Japanese

Hase - Mikado - The King of Xrd Slayer. Best confirms, best combos, best grabs, best mixup, best BDC use, best choice of normals. Frequently uses YRC and Blitz Charge. Can play either patient or rushdown styles.

Tanabata - Mikado - Lab monster. Has a slight preference for meaty 2D/6K oki. Sometimes too eager to go for optimal combos. Actively posts combos on Twitter @tanabataheidern

En - Mikado - +R master. Tends not to use BDC specials. Generally the most patient Slayer.

Taka - Mikado/Acho? - "Taka Rush" "Pile Man". Always in Dandy Step.

BDC Invulnerability

• 1st frame of backdash cannot be canceled
• Up to 6F of full invulnerability transfer to BDC move
• Only the first 7F of full invulnerability qualify for BDC; late cancels transfer less invulnerability to the BDC move
• BDC Jump also gains invulnerability. Since jump startup is 4F, up to 2F of invulnerability is available afterwards.

[daymendou]

I updated the Overview today with a rough writeup

www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=GGXRD/Slayer

Please take a look. If something is confusing or needs correction, let me know here.

Tomorrow I will start work on the Move List. When I have my draft ready, I'll post it here first.

[probe]

Found a correction for 2H where it says staggers on hit, should be launched. Having +R 2H would be pretty nice though! Also, just a quick question about BDC jump, do you lose all invuln after jump startup?

[daymendou]

Also, just a quick question about BDC jump, do you lose all invuln after jump startup?

No. There's a match where Hase BDC air throws Sol's PBB (Dragon Install command grab). PBB has no invuln but has very high range. However, PBB does only have 1 active frame so it may be that it ran out before Hase threw him.

I recorded a test using Faust's 2K: https://youtu.be/uGXKIvxAOlw

Check video description. Faust's 2K is an anti-air and has long active frames so it seems to be the perfect candidate. BDC Jump got out fine but maybe the third hit of 2K doesn't hit very high.

 

Edit: Recorded BDC air throw on PBB: https://youtu.be/eybyBxDkagU

[Mr. Fancypants]

Thanks for putting in the work Daymendou. It looks great.

[daymendou]

1st draft for 5P. Not sure about formatting and layout yet, but I like the Sol wiki model of bullets+text. Took about 30 minutes, mostly because I didn't know what to say about 5P. I might actually be able to finish a draft for the whole movelist in the next 2 days...

As you can see, the layout for Normals is bulleted list of key points followed by writeup, notable Gatlings, then Combos if needed. For Specials, I will probably include a bit on combo theory and Setups for spacing, counterhits etc.

Ideally, we'll make videos for everything, but save that for when the time comes.

5P

• Slayer's fastest anti-air normal
• Large variety of gatlings

With its short 5F startup, 6 active frames, and ability to gatling into itself, 5P is great for mashing against attacks that rush forward like Sol's Riot Stamp or May's Horizontal Dolphin. 5P has an incredibly high hitbox but whiffs on crouching characters in most cases, so it is used less often in ground-to-ground combat.

Compared to Slayer's other anti-air normals (2S and 6P), 5P has the highest hurtbox, which often leads to unfavorable trades with heavier, lower-reaching air attacks. However, 5P's fast recovery makes it difficult to bait and punish.

 

Gatlings

• 5P – 5P

Very useful for fishing for anti-airs and confirming into your air combo

• 5P – 5K
• 5P – 2K

Completely tight blockstring, even on Instant Block

• 5P – 2S

Alternative to 5P – 5P for your anti-air combo. Sometimes fails to combo if the opponent is too high

• 5P – 6H

Frame trap with a 6F gap if the opponent blocks 5P in the air. Gives best reward after anti-air CH 5P

 

Combos

• 5P > j.P

Anti-air combo starter. Uses j.P because j.S rarely hits and other air normals are too slow

 

Edit:

I'd like a better example for 5P mash than Riot Stamp since you usually use 6P against that. Can only think of I-no dash pressure, TK Bad Moon, and maybe TK Mad Struggle as things that you can't really use 2S/6P against

[daymendou]

Some things I want everyone to look out for:

1. Are the examples and tips practical?
2. Are there any ambiguities?
3. Does the writeup make sense? Does the information agree with experience?
4. Are the combos useful and appropriate for beginning players?

Edit: Moved to wiki

[daymendou]

Moved to wiki

[daymendou]

Had some free time today so I updated the wiki with everything up to 6H. Should have more time this weekend as well.

Also updated Frame Data to reflect that you can no longer cancel Bite with YRC. I would like to verify 2H recovery and DOT recovery if possible.

Question for everyone: is it better to write "low profile moves" or "low profile attacks"? Since "move" has multiple meanings...

 

Here's my goals for the wiki:

Movelist section

• Finish 1st draft for everything this month
• Include some very basic combo theory for specials
• Maybe make a companion video
• Add haikus

Combos section

• More detail on combo theory
• Add links to videos (I think Pichy's and ApertureBlack's are good)
• List some universal combos, leave character specific stuff for Evernote

Strategy section

• More detail on attack use; move some stuff out of Movelist section once we start work here
• How to move
• BDC, cause everyone always asks about this

[daymendou]

Updated Frame Data with values from 4gamer wiki

List of new data:

* 5H maximum stagger length 39F, frame advantage +17~-3 on hit

* 2H Attack Level 4 -> 3, frame advantage -10

* 6P invul listed as 1~6 Upper Body, 7~23 Above Knees instead of 1~23 Above Knees

* Bite whiff recovery 35F -> 42F, maximum stagger 49F, frame advantage +32~+7

* It's Late Throw Invul 1~13 -> 1~19 (covers all active frames), initial proration 90% -> 100% (was 100% in 1.0)

* Helter Skelter, Dead on Time, Eternal Wings no longer have proration values listed (may be incorrect)

* Dead On Time recovery 31+21 -> 36+21, frame advantage -41 -> -47 (I think -41 was incorrect and should have been -42)

* Stun modifiers listed for 2H, Ground Throw, Air Throw, Bite, P Pilebunker, K Pilebunker, Dead On Time. Pilebunker having a penalty to stun doesn't make sense to me so we should check before adding this

[daymendou]

The listed proration changes to IL, Helter, DOT, and EW are definitely wrong, at least in 1.1 console.

2H frame advantage is correct.

2H and Throws don't add stun.

[prototype047]

So what happened to our matchup thread?  Is it coming back?  Nvm found it. 

[daymendou]

I think I figured out the weird Stun values.

Listed values:

• 2H: 13 stun, 48 base damage
• Ground Throw: 34 stun, 68 base damage
• Air Throw: 30 stun, 60 base damage
• Bite: 72 stun, 0+72 base damage
• P Pile: 50 stun, 70 base damage
• K Pile: 60 stun, 80 base damage
• Dead on Time: 70 stun, 140 base damage

I think what you do is use the stun value in the bear stun formula instead of base damage. Should be a good starting point for testing.

Estimated stun modifiers:

• 2H: <0.25x
• Ground Throw: <0.5x
• Air Throw: <0.5x
• Bite: 1.0x
• P Pile: <0.75x
• K Pile: <0.75x
• Dead on Time: <0.5x

Although Bite might actually be 72 stun for the 0 damage hit then more stun from the 72 damage hit

[daymendou]

Investigating FDC and BDC invulnerability with the hitbox display mod.

 

FDC doesn't seem to transfer any invulnerability to the jump. I suspect further testing would show that it doesn't transfer any invulnerability to any moves.

 

BDC invulnerability behaves much differently than I thought. Summary of the video is that jumping on frame 12 transferred 3 invul frames, jumping on frame 14 transferred 2 invul frames, and jumping on frame 17 transferred 0 invul frames. To be thorough, we'll have to check if BDC invulnerability depends on the move used.

[Boom Cube]

Assuming that invuln transfer is static across all special moves, what's the rate of diminishing returns? Is cancelling before frame 7 the threshold for all 6 frames of invuln?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[daymendou]

I am going to start testing today. Unfortunately, I don't know how to make an exact frame input for each frame of backdash (20 different frames with invul, 28 total...) so I'll probably just record a million times.

Checklist:

• What is the BDC invuln transfer limit? - Record frame perfect BDC Mappa/jump
• Does BDC invuln transfer limit differ between moves? - Record a set of delayed BDCs for each move
• Does BDC invuln transfer rate differ between moves? - Record a set of certain frame BDCs for each move
• What BDC cancel frame is needed to transfer 6 invuln frames? And 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0 invuln frames? - Record a set of BDCs for each frame count of the backdash (assume that first frame that transfers 0 means all following frames also transfer 0). If any of the above 2 statements are true, then record a set of BDCs for each move.

 

Edit: 

The record/playback function in training mode uses frames as units; "Replaying 10" means it is replaying the 10th frame of your recording. Since BDC invul should run out before the move hits, the playback frame count should give an accurate count of invuln frames.

When I say "BDC X on frame Y", I am counting the 1st frame where Slayer exits the backdash animation or becomes visible as Y, which I also count as the first frame for the I-frame count. Now these results are really strange...

BDC Mappa on frame 7 - 6 I-frames
BDC Mappa on frame 8 - 6 I-frames
BDC Mappa on frame 9 - 5/6 I-frames (yes, sometimes it transfers 5, sometimes it transfer 6)
BDC Mappa on frame 10 - 5/6 I-frames
BDC Mappa on frame 11 - 5 I-frames
BDC Mappa on frame 17 - 0 I-frames
BDC Mappa on frame 20 - 0 I-frames
BDC Mappa on frame 25 - 0 I-frames

P and K Mappa seem to behave the same.

BDC Jump on frame 3 - 4 I-frames
BDC Jump on frame 4 - 4 I-frames
BDC Jump on frame 5 - 4 I-frames
BDC Jump on frame 7 - 4 I-frames
BDC Jump on frame 9 - 4 I-frames
BDC Jump on frame 10 - 4 I-frames
BDC Jump on frame 12 - 3 I-frames
BDC Jump on frame 14 - 2 I-frames
BDC Jump on frame 17 - 0 I-frames

BDC Bite on frame 3 - 6 I-frames (beat meaty Slayer 2D)
BDC Bite on frame 6 - 6 I-frames (lost to meaty 2D)

BDC Undertow on frame 6 - 6 I-frames
BDC Undertow on frame 8 - 6 I-frames
BDC Undertow on frame 12 - 4 I-frames
BDC Undertow on frame 14 - 2 I-frames

 

We can conclude that BDC has the potential to give significantly more than 6 frames of invulnerability total, but there is definitely a transfer limit of 6 frames to the move's startup. BDC Jump doesn't seem to be able to gain more than 4 frames, which will cover jump startup, but requires a precise FD input to block air unblockable moves with a long active window.

If I think about it, I have beaten Ky 2D with BDC P Mappa once...

And for the curious, my average BDC Mappa is around frame 8-11 and my average BDC Jump is around frame 4

[Boom Cube]

On 2/5/2016 at 3:21 PM, daymendou said:

BDC Bite on frame 3 - 6 I-frames (beat meaty Slayer 2D)
BDC Bite on frame 6 - 6 I-frames (lost to meaty 2D)

wat

Also, the numbers on bdc jump make it a lot easier to understand why I still occasionally get caught of the startup of jump back FD.  Thanks for all the hard work!

[RoBoBOBR]

You can also just pick a partner, play some player matches where demos are saved, then use frame advance function of replay to accurately count up the frames.

[daymendou]

I can record videos on the PC version so frame count is not a problem, but the in-game counter is useful to double check.

I still want to check against hard frame data rather than just rely on the hitbox viewer. I think doing knockdown > meaty is a bit unstable, so I'll probably record something like Under Pressure > "meaty" instead and perform block > BDC.