Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Fortune

Margaret vs Elizabeth

Recommended Posts

Discuss the matchup here. If needed, this post will also fill in relevant summaries for both characters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posts from Margaret forums:

Not sure if anyone else has found this or tried it but can the AoA be used to punish Elizabeth? I know the move is incredibly slow (42 frames startup?) and should be used sparingly if at all in matches but I was playing against a few Elizabeths and noticed that during thier block string 5C>5C>5D the AoA can catch Elizabeth and evade Thanatos grab. This is the case for a blocked Mabufudyne and a Maragidyne at full screen due the move being active for a long time. But I haven't properly tested it yet or am I sure if it's consistent but it's something I noticed and thought I'd put it out there for other people's opinions.

You can use AoA to whiff punish obvious/slow fullscreen attacks in certain situations when it leaves them as a sitting duck in startup or recovery. Common things are Yukari ground Feather Arrow startup, Aigis Goddess Shield after rolling it, Yukiko being overreliant on ground fan zoning.

It's not a bad choice to use in that situation, but just as a friendly reminder that they can't throw fullscreen attacks for free. We can't just throw it out either since it's dangerous on recovery.

Luckily, Margaret has multiple ways of doing this by special canceling attacks that strike Thanatos into 236C.

The thing with simpler 5C Liz strings is being ready to guess/react to 5D/j.D / 2C / Bufu / OMC 5C x n again.

Just like Margaret, Liz should only be doing 5D at a distance. If she just mindlessly does 5D reset attempts in your face, you can possibly react with 5C or just B Power Slash and she'll likely die right on the spot probably without even OMC.

5C and 2C can give a lot of blockstun, and 2C armors through Power Slash versions and either should probably hit AOA in startup. There's also considering her Awakened variants, which vary on startup and blockstun so keep that in mind for the moment

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also with regards to fighting Elizabeths in general is there a way we can pressure them? Competent Elizabeths I fight, know the characters weaknesses and never try to challenge Margaret head on. Their game plan is to usually wait for Margaret to make a mistake then punish at close range with 5BBB>214A (Which honestly I am very mindful of as she can pick up some big damage afterwards). How does Margaret go about drawing her out and opening her up? Sitting happily in a crouching position across the screen waiting for an attack by Margaret is usually the way I get caught to this. Approaching from the air doesn't seem too wise as 5A,5B or 2B usually tag Margaret. I guess a ground approach is better but I'm not sure.  

Another thing I noticed in this matchup is that trading projectiles works in Margaret's favour. Maziodyne will usually end up loosing to Divine Vacuum (236C) as although both Liz and Margaret can block fairly quickly after throwing their respective projectiles Maziodyne leaves Thanatos out much longer the Cu Chulainn is left out, so ultimately this is and easy way to take persona cards from Liz (From my matchup up experience).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as getting in, Margaret doesn't have that much trouble versus Liz (as is the case vs most characters) - she CAN try to outzone you but in my opinion it's based on what she sees you doing and if she's in Awakening. 8-9 times out of 10, you don't have to play her game unless you're in a life or card deficit.

I would suggest trying to inch your way in with minimal committment as possible.

Margaret's ground game is superior to Liz. Several of her buttons can go right through Thanatos, hit Liz, and convert into damage.

Like I said earlier, Margaret can cancel far-hitting moves that hit Thanatos while Liz is often stuck in animations. Canceling those moves into 236C spear or 5C is a good way to dissuade Liz from throwing Thanatos out in the open. 

vs Maziodyne: Outside of Awakened A Zio, Margaret can actually just use 214A/B (B or SB give more success when you're trying to close distance) to slide right under the laser on reaction if you're reasonbly close and either break Thanatos or straight up hit her. As long as you hit Thanatos, you should be able to super cancel that into Panta Rhei and it should still hit her during recovery. This is 4K on 214A starter for a full conversion. 3.5 at the very least if you can confirm after tornado.

You don't necessarily have to try throwing spears to beat her to the punch. You can beat her, but you can also get hit for dong them blindly. You can block A Zio and spear back for a card break. You /cannot/ do that for Awakened A because it will disappear in time and it's faster than our projectiles. All other versions should be beaten on startup. 

Margaret's air buttons are also very dominating but Liz can indeed hit you and the personas for being predictable. I find j.2C and upback j.C to be useful to make big hitboxes quickly. 2A can also whiff punish Liz j.B if you're correct spacing.

Just remember that iceball still permits air actions afterwards, so doing superjump ice > airdash and other options to alter your aerial positioning and keep her from catching you.

 

Once you finally have Liz blocking, you should have her in the palm of your hand as long as you understand what they want to escape or respect. She has a number of different ways to open people up by using tick throws, j.2B instant overhead, fake overheads/lows, and crossups. Since this a common question, I'll just simply make a specialized thread for that in order to not drown this page.

In any case, I don't think Liz is going to be doing much to disrespect your blockstrings as long as you're spaced enough to keep 2A/2B/DP at bay and frame trap them to death.

There's plenty to this matchup but I think this is a decent stopping point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×