Jin vs Terumi

[cadacus_ater]

Discuss the Jin vs Terumi matchup here.  Terumi and Jin perspectives welcome!

 

 Jin vs Terumi

Notes for Jin about Terumi

• Terumi is a very fast character and covers distance quickly compared to most of the cast.  Do not underestimate his ability to close in from a distance.  Careless whiffs, even ice swords, could give him a combo or a DD for over 4k if he reads you correctly.
• Can generally beat him in the air.  Watch out for his j.B, it can cross-up at the proper spacing.  His j.D has a somewhat longer start up than some air normals, but a huge hitbox.  However, it is usually only threatening on CH.  Your defense exceeds his own if he doesn't have meter, with DP D being the safest option overall, but if he has 50 meter or more, be cautious of his defensive options with his DD or gimmicks with RC.
• He gains meter very quickly and can burn it to RC unsafe moves like 6C to trick you or extend his combos.
• 5D is faster than your own and has more range.  It will not reach you at the max or nearly max range of your 2D.  Can be beaten by 5C at match start if both of you start at the same time, but if you are slow, you will lose. 
• He can 6A your 6D for a trade at most distances and knock you to neutral with little consequence.  However, at farther distances, i.e. with the block string 5C, 2C, 6D you will not get hit by 6A.
• Do not use 6B too often as he can answer it fairly easily with his normals and get a fair bit of heat with the resulting combo.  His own 6B, while it does have a fair bit of startup frames, is one of his best starters, has FC, and can be feinted to bait you.
• Messenga can be blocked and countered with CH 5B(1) > 6C if he starts far enough away from you, but if he is closer to you when he starts it, he can block your dashing 5B.  Generally need to be in range of him when he finishes passing through you to succeed.  Can also IB and 5C if you are quick, but the IB is tricky.  If you have a good read, you can DP C or DP D it though.
• His only "mixup" on ground is his stomping DD.  B version is an overhead, A version hits low.  Jump canceled ground normals include 5A/2A, 5C(1) and 2C.  He does have a command grab to watch for, but it generally doesn't lead to much.  Also has a DD counter "walk" that can lead to an extremely damaging combo if he has enough resources, or at least 3k.  It loses to lows though, unless he is in OD, and doesn't work on cross-ups or a jump-in that is too far up.
• OD increases the size of his Drive moves, boosts their meter gain, drains your meter when he hits you with certain moves, and improves the damage and in some cases the combo potential (623B) of his DDs.  Also makes Messenga pass through you twice, making him end up on the same side he started from.

Notes for Terumi about Jin

• Jin is a jack-of-all-trades character with metered and meterless reversals, decent range, one ground overhead (6A) that requires a RC or a CH to combo from, projectiles, EX specials for 25 heat and his drive can freeze opponents for longer combos, gimmicks and gutsy resets.  Jin has fairly strong air normals and can use most of them for cross-ups at the correct spacing.
• Jin's hitbox is slender and it can be a little harder midscreen to connect 6C after 66 5D in the combo 5B > 5C > 3C > 22C max lvl > 66 5D > 6C.
• Jin playstyles can vary widely, even with meter usage.  Some will burn meter to boost combo damage and corner carry regularly, others will use meter for RC gimmicks, and still others will conserve meter for defense or high reward corner and finisher combos.
• Jin can jump cancel the ground normals 5A/2A, 5C, and 2C on block, and 5B, 2B and 2D on hit.  In CPEX, can gatling into 6A from 5A and 5B.
• Freeze state will force you into standing state after the ice is broken, even if you were crouching earlier in Jin's combo.
• Jin's ground ice swords are faster than his air ice swords in CPEX.  If you have 100 heat, you can easily counter at mid to long range distances with 236236D, Screeches of the Condemned.  Can sometimes just outright maneuver around them and counter with your movement speed.
• Each of Jin's DP moves has a general purpose.  DP B is usually used to stuff jump ins at certain spacings, DP C is used to escape pressure or bait an opponent with a RC gimmick, as normally it is very unsafe on block or whiff, and DP D is used similarly to DP C, but does a much better job of it.  DP D is also a very good combo booster midscreen in CPEX and can be charged for a while on the second hit to be unblockable.
• His OD increases the number of times he can freeze with his normals to three per combo and grants every normal involving his blade, as well as his ice swords, a freeze property.  It also improves the proration of most of his drive normals, allowing for higher damage combos and also increases the damage of his Ice Wave, Ice Arrows and Yukikaze counter DDs.
• Yukikaze counter DD will catch nearly all attacks, high, mid and low.  Projectiles trigger it also but do not freeze you in place during the wind-up animation.
• Can combo into Astral very easily from any combo involving a 6C > 2D/6D most of the time in CPEX.

 

Can't really think of much else to add on notes for Terumi about Jin right now that isn't just a massive breakdown of frame advantage and specific punishes. Some of it is covered already in the notes for Jin about Terumi above it.  Anyway, this should be a decent start and a reasonable summary for now.  I feel the matchup is fairly even and mostly depends on skill and the ability to play neutral well.

The post below has a great rundown of the matchup for Terumi's perspective for those who want more info on that side.

[Fame96]

Guess i'll put in my fill. Going to be doing it from terumi's perspective.

I find that being just outside of terumi's 2C's max range is the prefered positioning for him in footsies. Reason being is that this makes jin's 5B and 5C whiff and you are still in a good position for a whiff punish. He can also walk up 5B for a high damage counterpoke at this range since jin extends his hurtbox quite often. Jin is not helpless by any means because you are put into the position of his 5D and 2D. The only difference is that terumi is going to be sitting on alot more meter than jin is most of the time, allowing him to get damage more often on long range confirms. His ice sword is also always an option however if terumi has a read, he can stuff it with 5D, messenga, or Jarin resouga if he is feeling ballsy and you try to throw a sword from at least half screen away. 

When it comes to anti airs, terumi gets access to a situational anti air againest jin in the form of 2C.  2C can anti air all of his air normals except for J.2C and J.D for alot of damage, but considering the risk, it is best to stick with 5A, 6A, or J.A.

Jin can answer againest terumi's J.D with his J.C, 2D, his ice wave super, 623B, or a well placed ice sword. J.D cannot be overabused in this fight.

Terumi can run under J.C and TK ice swords for free for a big punish if he has the read. Jin can't overabuse them unless he is desperate to lose.

Once Terumi gets meter. Terumi's 6C becomes very threatening and he gains access to messenga. This allows terumi to whiff punish jin VERY easily. Jin runs a high risk of getting punished hard if he attacks at the wrong time. Whenever it is during neutral, or either's players pressure. Terumi holds alot more control when he gets at least 50 heat.

During terumi's pressure he can use either the 2a whiff OS, a properly spaced 6B, or a 6B feint to bait gale. It is highly recommended for jin to use EX dp instead. Other than ex dp and supers, he lacks an answer to 6B without IBing and hard reads. He can constantly switch up his frame traps to make it hard for jin to escape without taking a risk.

When terumi gets pressured by jin, it is similar story, except jin has an easier time opening terumi up due to his throw game and the fact that he has a standing overhead.

If jin uses his 6D in pressure. terumi can use 6A to trade if he doesn't have meter. Jin will be blown back and you will return to neutral.

If jin uses 6B anywhere but after a 6C that is not IBed, you can 6A him for free. Depending on the normal, you can even 5B him. If you have 100 meter, you can kill him for even trying 6B with counter super, or almost any of his other supers. If he tries to end his pressure with an ice sword, it depends on how far he is from you. If you are near point blank, you can just block it and get away from him and return to neutral. If you are farther away, you can avoid the sword depending on the move it was canceled from. With meter, ice sword in a blockstring can be punished with messenga.

If ground messenga is blocked (which is -9 on block), jin can dash up 5B (i'm not sure how fast his 2B is) if you need terumi closer, you can barrier block messenga but it will become -8 on block.

If terumi air messenga's and you didn't already press anything, you can use gale for a good punish. 623B loses and 2C is very hard to time. You cannot punish him on block when he does air messenga.

IMO, this fight is pretty even. both sides have good answers to each others tools. It boils down to whoever can play a better neutral game than the other.

Jin players feel free to put in your perspective in case I missed something.