Luminos564 Report post Posted September 24, 2015 Question about parry since I never saw definitive answers: can you cancel a parry into another parry?From the sound of things, I do not think it's possible chief. Since parry does not seem capable of dealing with multi-hit skills as other people mentioned, it's a safe bet parry cannot cancel into itself.Really hoping this is just early experiment weirdness like what befalls most characters. I seem to recall Mr. Dandyman himself (Slayer) being labeled as gutted early on in SIGN until people figured him out. It might be the same for Jam. I refuse to believe that she of all characters is lower on the totem pole than Ky's little crotch-spawn on principle alone . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryokoalways Report post Posted September 24, 2015 (edited) Another set of frame data for comparison5P 4F (ick)5K 4F (This might explain why you can link 5k to itself on crouching characters)近S 6F遠S 6F5HS 13F5D 25F2P 4F2K 5F2S 6F2HS 11F2D 6F Edit: Additional22(key)- 56F, card on 44F22(key) hold- 86F, card on 74Fryujin- 17f, air 8fdp- 7f, air 5fgekirin- air 17fparry- total 10ffollow-up P- 4Ffollow-up pp- 15FFollow-up pk- 27F? Edited September 24, 2015 by ryokoalways Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amadeous Report post Posted September 25, 2015 From the sound of things, I do not think it's possible chief. Since parry does not seem capable of dealing with multi-hit skills as other people mentioned, it's a safe bet parry cannot cancel into itself.Really hoping this is just early experiment weirdness like what befalls most characters. I seem to recall Mr. Dandyman himself (Slayer) being labeled as gutted early on in SIGN until people figured him out. It might be the same for Jam. I refuse to believe that she of all characters is lower on the totem pole than Ky's little crotch-spawn on principle alone .Reminder that Johnny was said to be weak 2 weeks ago, and now he's one of the strongest characters in the game. Or Leo being a weak character.I've said it before and I'll say it again: it's a GOOD thing Jam is weak right now. If she were ACR level of power after a week of a loketest and day 1, she'd be absolutely unstoppable 2 or 3 weeks from now. BnBs haven't even been figured out, give it some time. At her weakest, I'm predicting she'd be at least Slash power, and I seem to recall KA2 OCV'd through SBO that year, so I'm in no way worried. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amadeous Report post Posted September 25, 2015 (edited) I asked LOX and it sounds like Parry into Parry is possible.I'm reading that as you can do the following things after a successful Parry:-Block-FD-Parry-P followupThis is INCREDIBLY GOOD because it means you can still parry safejumps and be safe, or parry crossups and be safe. Also, because Parry is a 46 input, it means parrying Chipp and Sol jH, along with other multi-hit moves, is much easier than it was in AC or ACR. Edited September 25, 2015 by Amadeous Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChaseRLewis Report post Posted September 25, 2015 I asked LOX and it sounds like Parry into Parry is possible.I'm reading that as you can do the following things after a successful Parry:-Block-FD-Parry-P followupThat's cool. But if the window to parry is bigger it might be easier to hit things easier. Is that 10F for parry how long it is active? It is still 0F right?5P is 4F? WTF? Chipp gets a 3F standing and crouching jab with a great hitbox and Jam's little piss ant punch gets 4F even after removing parry->5P? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amadeous Report post Posted September 25, 2015 Here are my assumptions:The frame data may be off by 1 frame. I find it hard to believe 5K is 4F and +2 when it was 5F and +1 in AC/ACR, but we'll have to see. Means 5P may be 3F still. Though as you said, because Parry -> 5P is gone, there's not much point in needing a 3F 5P. Though even if 5P is 4F, if 5K is 4F and +2 I'm not going to complain at all anyway lol.Parry is likely 9 or 10F whiff animation, then a 3 or 4F startup on the P followup. Parry had a 6F window to catch things in previous games, we'll see if that remains or if she is catching things during those 9 or 10F. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
greatfernman Report post Posted September 25, 2015 5K was 4f +2 in reloadso it's probably rightAlso IIRC parry has an 8f window to catch things Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KurlyBandit Report post Posted September 25, 2015 (edited) I'm reading that as you can do the following things after a successful Parry:-Block-FD-Parry-P followupThis is INCREDIBLY GOOD because it means you can still parry safejumps and be safe, or parry crossups and be safe. Also, because Parry is a 46 input, it means parrying Chipp and Sol jH, along with other multi-hit moves, is much easier than it was in AC or ACR.yeah I definitely saw someone do double parry on stream.5P is 4F? WTF? Chipp gets a 3F standing and crouching jab with a great hitbox and Jam's little piss ant punch gets 4F even after removing parry->5P?Chipp's 2P is 4f. but I mean 4f isn't that bad. but I agree having 5P, 2P and 5K as 4f seems wrong to me. there's probably a margin of error.If parry whiff is 10f total then that's not as bad as I thought. you can't even punish that on reaction. only if you miss the parry pretty much. is H puffball +5 even if you crossup? that's really good.are charged DP and gekirin hard knockdown? I don't think I saw someone tech after them on stream Edited September 25, 2015 by KurlyBandit Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChaseRLewis Report post Posted September 25, 2015 yeah I definitely saw someone do double parry on stream.Chipp's 2P is 4f. but I mean 4f isn't that bad. but I agree having 5P, 2P and 5K as 4f seems wrong to me. there's probably a margin of error.If parry whiff is 10f total then that's not as bad as I thought. you can't even punish that on reaction. only if you miss the parry pretty much. is H puffball +5 even if you crossup? that's really good.are charged DP and gekirin hard knockdown? I don't think I saw someone tech after them on streamI doubt H puffball is the same crossup & non-crossup. Generally H non-crossup is plus a decent amount and crossup is +1. Can't imagine it is any different in this game. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jakestation Report post Posted September 25, 2015 FAB retweeted this: 5P 発生3 硬直差0 5K 発生4 硬直差+2 近S 発生6 硬直差-6 遠S 発生6 硬直差-2 5HS 発生13.17.21 硬直差+1 6P 発生9.16 硬直差+2 6K 発生6.13 硬直差-18 6HS 発生14 硬直差-6 2P 発生4 硬直差+3 2K 発生5 硬直差0 2S 発生6 硬直差0 2HS 全体41 発生11.24 =0 J2K(低空) 発生地上から14 空中で10 硬直差+8 HIT時+3 地上からの特殊逆鱗 硬直差-1 地上ギリ特殊逆鱗 硬直差+2 爆蹴→百歩 発生24 硬直差+1 爆蹴→千里 発生29 硬直差+5 爆蹴→波紋脚 発生13 硬直差-13 逆鱗(地) ジャムの立ち状態 発生22 硬直差-10 劔楼脚(空) 発生5 地上低ダからジャム立ちガードしっぱ 硬直差-2 朝凪(K) 全体52 タメ86 So 5p is actually 3f move. 5k is +2 on block etc. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mumm-Ra Report post Posted September 25, 2015 It seems like they took AC's 6HS and it's followup and made them Parry K and Parry P respectively (kinda), I saw someone combo parry K in the corner twice on Potemkin on Jonio's stream yesterday, did some good damage. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryokoalways Report post Posted September 25, 2015 h puffball is +5 normal and +3 on switch.s puffball is still at +1. With the start-up being that high, the only use is really in zoning, which is actually not too bad in some match-ups due to hitbox change pre-hit.2h is 0 on block, which is really good. Depending on what the recovery is, parry cancel might be a thing. I think 2h is not airtight, so that might be a concern. There are enough options where you can vary it up so it wouldn't make too big of a problem though.With over half of her ground normals at 0 or plus, she will likely be better at staying close, but worse off at mid range. 6h should help against long range (whether it's legit or just people not used to jam with that much range remains to be seen). Getting in against long range characters will be harder, and because she doesn't have moves that's just safe pressure, Jam players will have to make exact reads more frequently to get chances, but things should be gravy once it's close range.AA will be a bit tougher, but as mentioned, 5p and cs are still available, and 2k can still be used for low profile. There hasn't been much usage of 6p to get a good idea of it's properties. It's better as a pressure move now though because the gap between hit 1 and 2 is smaller so there is less pushback. It will be easier to make use of the +2 on that move.Her average damage is not bad (but it looks like 5k is 80% proration. Too bad), but she is fairly resource dependent like in slash to get the damage. Her peak damage by itself is on the low end, but with the 5h>2h gatling, it should be easy to build up guard meter. You can kind of treat her 2h like a homeless man's aba 2h. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChaseRLewis Report post Posted September 25, 2015 (edited) s puffball is still at +1. With the start-up being that high, the only use is really in zoning, which is actually not too bad in some match-ups due to hitbox change pre-hit.Hm, pretty sure it was S that had the counter-hit fafnir effect. If so it will still have it's uses an ender after a 2D like always. Kinda sad at only +1 6HS won't be terribly strong unless you are close enough to threaten a slash button of some sort because 14F startup on 6HS is pretty high. If it is half as good as fafnir I think we will be fine especially if we can reliably followup from it without a card or meter. Also does 6HS put you airborne? Looks like it does so there might be some sort of old style 6HS mindgames especially if you can do the YRC as they are waking up and be airborne and even more if it is possible to corpse hop with it for some crossups. Someone posted the footage from the other night.lvl 1 charge untechable dragon kick by hitting in the later active frames. Reliably that would be sick. Probably character specific though.https://youtu.be/CuvWSmAxk2c?t=53m50s Edited September 26, 2015 by ChaseRLewis Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amadeous Report post Posted September 25, 2015 Honestly with the range+hitbox of 6H I think doing it after an FD'd max range puffball will be great. Not something you can safely do every time, no, but one you can do to keep them blocking. 6H YRC looks great, but for other reasons. It lets you gatling into an advancing move, sortof replacing her 2D FRC. Still not as good since you have to let them exit blockstun before YRCing, but easier to do and covers more space faster.H puffball having even MORE plus frames is great news, it means Potemkin can't IB Pot buster you to punish it anymore. Also means it's scarier to block it, giving you more reason to feint with S puffball and get that juicy CH.I also saw MAX Ryujin is untechable until they reach the ground, it looked like. Cards charge very quickly and being able to YRC and still get the card is great. I'd like to see people get KD with 6H or 2D instead of 46PP, then cancel to 22K, YRC as they get up, and still get legitimate okizeme. Because of the blowback on 6H, you could probably even do 22K YRC 22K and be mostly safe, then boom one more card and you've got MAX Ryujin. I don't think ending with 46PP is a great idea, I think people are still thinking it's too much like AC/ACR. Unless you can cancel from 46PP into 22K/S/H series, which I haven't seen any news of, I'd rather have the frames from getting to cancel into it from a 6H knockdown. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryokoalways Report post Posted September 26, 2015 (edited) Machabo was using mainly 2d kd for 1 card, which will be the norm again unless max card has anything additional to offer (6h can safely secure a max charge against some characters).Most likely 2 gekirin will be preferred over 1 max gekirin, and max ryujin > rc for high damage combos.Edit: reported foot invun on 6h is 4-13f. Edited September 26, 2015 by ryokoalways Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChaseRLewis Report post Posted September 26, 2015 (edited) http://www.twitch.tv/joniosan Jam was playing here a bit earlier. Now Sin practice mode, might have more Jam again in a bit. Was doing some actual work with her. Edited September 26, 2015 by ChaseRLewis Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
9:02 PM Report post Posted September 26, 2015 The white/pink hair jam is Teresa. OG Jam. Definitely worth watching the stream archive. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KurlyBandit Report post Posted September 26, 2015 Because of the blowback on 6H, you could probably even do 22K YRC 22K and be mostly safe, then boom one more card and you've got MAX Ryujin.if you want MAX why not just hold the charge? it saves you around 20 frames if you still yrc it. but yeah you could do 22K yrc 22S or 22H to get one of two different types. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChaseRLewis Report post Posted September 26, 2015 if you want MAX why not just hold the charge? it saves you around 20 frames if you still yrc it. but yeah you could do 22K yrc 22S or 22H to get one of two different types.Gekirin seems like the best card by quite a bit, it is untechable so you can do air combo into Gekirin. Charge a new Gekirin without YRC AND still get oki. Looks like you might even be able to get a relaunch if they are high enough. MAX ryuujin doesn't seem to have an actual purpose right now other that it can wall splat, but the recovery is so big on it not sure what you can get after it. Is MAX ryuujin the only move she has other than Dust that gives a wall splat on normal hit? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KurlyBandit Report post Posted September 26, 2015 (edited) Machabo was using mainly 2d kd for 1 card, which will be the norm again unless max card has anything additional to offer (6h can safely secure a max charge against some characters).Most likely 2 gekirin will be preferred over 1 max gekirin, and max ryujin > rc for high damage combos.I think Jam in this game will be more card reliant, so getting a card off of simple ground combo into 2D will be the main thing at the beginning of the round.Why do you say 2 gekirin will be preferred? it's not like you get multiple uses. afaik MAX is better in every way.Gekirin seems like the best card by quite a bit, it is untechable so you can do air combo into Gekirin. Charge a new Gekirin without YRC AND still get oki. Looks like you might even be able to get a relaunch if they are high enough. MAX ryuujin doesn't seem to have an actual purpose right now other that it can wall splat, but the recovery is so big on it not sure what you can get after it. Is MAX ryuujin the only move she has other than Dust that gives a wall splat on normal hit?Yeah I'm seeing a few Jam's completely ignore other cards and just go for gekirin. I'm not sure about the purpose of MAX ryuujin other than damage but the wall splat seems pretty long if you do it further away from the corner, you can probably continue the combo. https://youtu.be/z8xGwqOFR3w?t=3948is it just the animation or does YRCing puffball leave a hitbox? Edited September 26, 2015 by KurlyBandit Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
khmxspider Report post Posted September 26, 2015 (edited) someone recorded some Throw Combos Edited September 26, 2015 by khmxspider Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryokoalways Report post Posted September 26, 2015 I think Jam in this game will be more card reliant, so getting a card off of simple ground combo into 2D will be the main thing at the beginning of the round.Why do you say 2 gekirin will be preferred? it's not like you get multiple uses. afaik MAX is better in every wayIf you have 2 cards you get to use it twice. You don't use up both charges at once. Also, I remember seeing somewhere in Mikado that max gekirin doesn't work with air dash special (doesn't go straight down). Can't find it right now to confirm. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChaseRLewis Report post Posted September 26, 2015 (edited) https://youtu.be/z8xGwqOFR3w?t=3948is it just the animation or does YRCing puffball leave a hitbox?I imagine it has a hitbox but I doubt we will be able to do YRC with it and actually hit someone except as a meaty on wakeup. To do that it would need to come out then become active. I don't think the move works like that. I think he just YRC'd during active frames. Meaty YRC then confirm the block would be pretty cool especially with HS puffball. Also that mixup off that first throw combo with lvl 1 DragonKick looks hella legit. Edited September 26, 2015 by ChaseRLewis Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KurlyBandit Report post Posted September 26, 2015 I imagine it has a hitbox but I doubt we will be able to do YRC with it and actually hit someone except as a meaty on wakeup. Meaty YRC then confirm the block would be pretty cool especially with HS puffball.if that really is possible then that would force them to block on wakeup and let us get a free mixup. perhaps Jam isn't as bad as she seems. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amadeous Report post Posted September 26, 2015 I want to see someone do IAD Gekirin YRC mixups. Should work similarly to IAD 236P mixup. jS, 5K, or throw for high/low/throw crossups. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites