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Jam Kuradoberi General Discussion

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Yeah I a lot of people I talked to just couldn't understand in AC her combo's aren't hard, it's the movement and mixup options that require fast fingers and precision. It is looking like it might be similar for Xrd Jam which means her use of options isn't super straight forward which is going to take some time to flesh out. YRC IAD Gekirin and YRC IAD 236P sound disgustingly awesome. Especially if IAD 236P YRC gives fast fall like properties like IAD YRC making safe jumps easier and empty lows possible.

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236P isn't in Xrd

: ( ah misread amadeous' post, I get it now, should be a replacement for. Thought he meant it would work similarly but have both. She's looking solid to be honest right now, lots of people have interesting stuff but no  one has a full gameplan stitched together yet. Once tech starts disseminating stuff will get interesting.

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Right, so I really can't wait for the game to hit consoles, because I seem to be feeling the exact opposite as most people in regards to Jam. I don't think Jam is going to need cards in Xrd at all, I think it just seems that way because people don't understand how to get damage with her any other way, but she's still got all of her tools from #R to confirm and get really strong damage output. This is a game where she has 2D IAD j.P into basically whatever the hell you want and I haven't seen people use it in a match ever. Someone did it in training mode, probably Kisshi if I remember correctly, but that's it. This is also a game where she has 6K that forces stand and you can also IAD into j.P and also do basically whatever the hell you want, and I haven't even seen that one in training mode, I haven't seen anyone do it. That should be like the easiest 30% into corner carry in the game, but instead people would rather do 2P 2P 2P 2D xx card and get 8% so they can save up for a confirm they're never going to get. Even IAD pressure has been really nonexistant in the current level of play, no one is doing IABD burn kick to control space, most people seem to be adapting a hit and run playstyle with Jam. It's no wonder early on there were comments about Jam being a weaker Sin, because that's how she's been getting played. Get the knockdown at all costs to build resources and then try to wait out for a moment to run in then back off and build more resources. I don't know any version of Jam that was played like that so I have no idea why people are doing it. Watching Machaboo play was pretty frustrating for me because he was doing well and he was winning consistently, but I still feel like he wasn't playing Jam correctly in the slightest. He was doing some good things and his OTG reset into puffball looked like a great setup that I'm going to have to steal when the console version drops, but overall I have yet to see someone who in my opinion is playing the character how she's supposed to be played. And of course it's early footage still and to most people she's a new character, but I'm still just waiting for some old #R Jam god to lay down some footage.

Edited by JohnGrimm

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Ok, I'm more optimistic in this version of jam now that I've seen footages in action.

 

Now the only thing that I'm salty about is both her CH puffball doesn't have enough untech time.

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6k iad is currently the most interesting component. Considering 6k(2) combos into a 14f move, it should provide very favorable frames on hit for iad. I think someone posted about this already in the bbs, so it will likely be tested soon.

Outside of that, due to the rc system changes, it's going to take awhile for Jam to look like it's being properly played, however it ends up looking like. j2k yrc should be another good way to secure a respectable mixup. Any block string delay iad yrc should be a pretty decent tool as well. Right now a lot of Jam sits on 100% tension and rc a ryujin entry or go for ball super. YRC with jam's moves, in theory, should make it much harder to keep her out. That should come with time.

One thing I think people will likely move out of is the parry PP ender. It doesn't kd nearly long enough for legitimate wake-up pressure due to long recovery, and doesn't even retain advantage if you go for a card (especially bad for a ground combo, which should always end in 2d, or 6k > 6h card or 236s-xx for tracking and tension). The damage is very respectable, but since you can't do anything after it I think it's a throwaway piece as far as combo goes. It's much better to secure kd with a card gekirin as it allows you to card something else and/or apply a good wake-up game. Aerial finish also probably results in better tension gain due to 3 kicks.

As far as rc goes, it doesn't really feel like it's worthwhile other than 6h > ryujin rc or throw (1) rc occasionally. Outside of combo, it might be worth looking into 2h rc for ambiguous cross-up shenanigans. I'm currently of the opinion that Jam should avoid rc as much as possible and abuse yrc. Since the most reliable way to beat Jam is to pre-empt her moves (since she is faster than you), yrc should allow you to react during flash and counter accordingly. We'll see how it turns out.

Edited by ryokoalways

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It'll be interesting to see what she can do with YRC since she has no projectile. 

Is it possible to do j.2K very early into the jump? I'm thinking if you use it to stop your upwards momentum then YRC it could give you a quick high/low situation where the high option is better than j.2K because as far as I know you can't combo after it without RC. 

I've yet to see anyone actually use her DP on wakeup so I don't know if DP > gekirin YRC is still in. Japanese players are too respectful.

I hear people saying ryuujin YRC is good but I don't really understand why. I guess maybe to traverse the screen quickly and still be able to block?

I don't think if 236S > P YRC will be useful since it recovers quickly anyway.

Anyone got any other ideas?

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Is it possible to do j.2K very early into the jump? I'm thinking if you use it to stop your upwards momentum then YRC it could give you a quick high/low situation where the high option is better than j.2K because as far as I know you can't combo after it without RC. 

 

Yeah Machabo was doing TK j.2K (RC) combo's so you can definitely do it low to the ground.

I hear people saying ryuujin YRC is good but I don't really understand why. I guess maybe to traverse the screen quickly and still be able to block?

I don't know about good, but interesting. If you can use it in a blockstring and still YRC that could be interesting given that the ground version still is slow as balls frame data wise we might be able to do something like f.S->Ryuujin->YRC->j.H for some easy pressure though it is seeming like her input dash YRC might be better for that purpose since the slow down is basically like getting frame advantage when you start spamming throw & 4f normals. Her normal throw with a card is prettty high right now, which is cool for her mixup options. The wall bounces from lvl. 1 Ryuujin & 6HS might open up corner crossup stuff. 

 

Yeah I saw Jam was able to do 2D->j.P stuff on Pot, Faust, and a few others but no word if it is truly universal yet. One guy in training mode made it look like it wasn't possible on Slayer, he tried every air normal and couldn't do it. Even then though. Gekirin card is pretty powerful and loops back into itself endlessly which is pretty powerful. I could see going for 2D->j.P stuff after getting a Gekirin card, but having all air combo's end in HKD, card, AND oki is just so good it is hard to justify other options in my mind right now. Ryuujin has some interesting properties with wall bounce, but not convinced those are better at all right now. Also her throw is looking pretty strong like it was in #R especially with a Gekirin card for HKD.

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Apparently our uppercut super is garbage lol. Machabo hits it cleanly and they fall out of the second hit.

Edit: nvm, 2nd hit is manually timed.

Edited by ChaseRLewis
Was an idiot

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Apparently our uppercut super is garbage lol. Machabo hits it cleanly and they fall out of the second hit.

like greatfernman said, you need to time the second hit of the super yourself since it has clean hit properties. I think getting clean hit does a few extra hits, nothing too major.

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2D IAD j.P was never universal. It only ever worked on light characters or characters who floated for a long time. It was however, besides a solid conversion tool, also a very strong pressure tool. But, for the characters that 2D IAD j.P doesn't work on, 6K IAD j.P is pretty universal. The only caveat for that is that you need to do whatever confirm so that you would hit 6K as far away as possible so you didn't IAD over your opponent's head, but with Jam's myriad of confirm and pressure strings, that's barely an issue. The only characters that might not work on are characters who are naturally short, but for those characters chances are 2D IAD works on them instead. So really, all it will take is learning which characters fall into category A and which fall into category B. No big deal.

 

As for other options not sounding ideal because card is so strong, I feel that once people get a feel for the pace of a match and what is necessary to build cards, cards will be less important. Sure, getting those sorts of knockdowns are nice especially since it gives you the chance to get more resources, but by charging you're giving up pressure effectively and that's no good. Is the card more important than your momentum? Probably not. It's a nice thing to have, but I don't think it's as required as players seem to think it is right now. Hell, #R Jam almost never got a knockdown like that, it was almost always dragon kick > DP > burn kick, and that was good enough because burn kick made you fall incredibly fast so you were already on the ground and recovered while your opponent was still falling. #R Jam was all about relentless pressure and pushing your momentum, and she was a top 5 character in that game. It's easy to overrate knockdowns in Xrd because all of the strongest characters in the game all have hard knockdown into lockdown oki, but I don't think it's all that important to Jam.

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Combos are actually being posted by tanabata, who is playing with Mike Jam, and retweeted by Lox. All are corner combos based on ryujin card. It's the same combo adjusted to each character, likely the highest dmg they have figured out so far.

iad gekirin or 236sk card gekirin starter:

6k(1) > 2h (2) > parry pk > forward js > straight up jd (1 or 2 not specified) > gekirin > card ryujin > gekirin (whiff) > land 5s > 2h (2) > parry pp. #Sol, Ky, Zato, Axl, Slayer, Sin

6k(1) > 2h(1) > parry pk > hjd (2) > gekirin > card ryujin > gekirin (whiff) > 2h (2) > parry pp. #May

5s > 2h (2) > parry pk > hjd (2) > gekirin > card ryujin > gekirin (whiff) > 5s > 2h (2) > parry pp. #Millia, Elphelt

5s > 2s > 2h (1) > parry pk > forward js > straight up jd (1 or 2 not specified) > gekirin > card ryujin > gekirin (whiff) > 5s > 2h (2) > parry pp. #Chipp

6k (1) > 2h (2) > parry pk > hjk > jd (1 or 2 not specified) > gekirin > card ryujin > gekirin (whiff) > 5s > 2h (2) > parry pp. #Faust

dash 5s >  2h (2) > parry pk > forward js > straight up jd (1 or 2 not specified) > gekirin > card ryujin > gekirin (whiff) > 5s > 2h (2) > parry pp. #Ino, Ramlethal

5s > 2h (1) > parry pk > hjd (2) > gekirin > card ryujin > gekirin (whiff) > 2h (2) > parry pp. # jam, Jack-o.

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2D IAD j.P was never universal. It only ever worked on light characters or characters who floated for a long time. It was however, besides a solid conversion tool, also a very strong pressure tool. But, for the characters that 2D IAD j.P doesn't work on, 6K IAD j.P is pretty universal. The only caveat for that is that you need to do whatever confirm so that you would hit 6K as far away as possible so you didn't IAD over your opponent's head, but with Jam's myriad of confirm and pressure strings, that's barely an issue. The only characters that might not work on are characters who are naturally short, but for those characters chances are 2D IAD works on them instead. So really, all it will take is learning which characters fall into category A and which fall into category B. No big deal.

 

As for other options not sounding ideal because card is so strong, I feel that once people get a feel for the pace of a match and what is necessary to build cards, cards will be less important. Sure, getting those sorts of knockdowns are nice especially since it gives you the chance to get more resources, but by charging you're giving up pressure effectively and that's no good. Is the card more important than your momentum? Probably not. It's a nice thing to have, but I don't think it's as required as players seem to think it is right now. Hell, #R Jam almost never got a knockdown like that, it was almost always dragon kick > DP > burn kick, and that was good enough because burn kick made you fall incredibly fast so you were already on the ground and recovered while your opponent was still falling. #R Jam was all about relentless pressure and pushing your momentum, and she was a top 5 character in that game. It's easy to overrate knockdowns in Xrd because all of the strongest characters in the game all have hard knockdown into lockdown oki, but I don't think it's all that important to Jam.

I see where you are coming from on most of this and she will definitely have a lot of hit and run style type stuff where they get to air tech, especially if you get a hit without a card stocked. Only thing I've noticed is it seems people get to tech super quick after a non-card gekirin right now. I don't think it is punishable, but they definitely tech while you are still falling right now unless done very low to the ground. She definitely is going to play a lot like #R Jam, but the cards in this version seem quite a bit better than the cards in #R. Given she can get a free card & oki off some hits there will probably be people that just get cards when it is convenient and those that prioritize cards for HKD. Which is best will be determined by damage differences in combo's and experience with the game. Too early to say which will be better for now.

Hm, guess dragon kick relaunch might be stronger than gekirin relaunch in the corner. Seems to be a lot of difference of opinion with players on which card to prioritize right now.

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Max dp might be something worth looking into. It definitely doesn't have initial prorate, but for something with so many hits it also doesn't scale as much as you would expect. Additionally, depending on point of recovery it might be a safe dp. With how situational card ryujin is as a combo extender, I think people will start looking at other options.

 As far as comparing to previous versions of Jam, it's really a 1/3 mix of reload, slash and new. Playing strictly a reload style won't work because throw doesn't pose as a big enough threat, air dash is better than slash but not as good as reload, jp is nerfed by 1f (5 to 6), etc. Jam has the power cards, 5k, and probably damage output equivalent (specifically not needing corner for good dmg) to reload, but only one of those 3 things really helps generating chances. Changes to 6h will have a big effect as well (it's not strictly better or worse in this case, just different), and likewise 2h. Range decrease to js, 2d and jd (1) are unfortunate but won't swing match-ups. Also, while 6p being back to 9f is unfortunate, I think the new animation makes the move a lot better.

I think more than anything else, the biggest learning curve is getting use to the new parry, which probably has a greater effect on Jam's aggression than anything else.. It will definitely take a lot longer for people to settle down with Jam than other returning characters. You won't have a polished Jam to work with within 2-3 days like you did with Johnny.

Edited by ryokoalways

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Max dp might be something worth looking into. It definitely doesn't have initial prorate, but for something with so many hits it also doesn't scale as much as you would expect. Additionally, depending on point of recovery it might be a safe dp. With how situational card ryujin is as a combo extender, I think people will start looking at other options.

Awesome video. Max charged DP looks pretty amazing as does lvl. 1 DP charge. That IAD DP look flat out unsightable and gives awesome combo options. 

 

Hm ... I just realized since her parry is a cancellable special that means she can burst bait on any grounded normal by cancelling into parry ...

Edited by ChaseRLewis

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I posted a framedata link (incomplete) in generals. According to it, jk or js should be possible as iad combo parts after 6k.

6k (2) combos into a 14f.

jump 3f

action after iad 6f

So, anything 5f or faster should work. 6k will force stand, so as long jk or js hitbox isn't horrible it should be possible.

Edited by ryokoalways

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I'm pretty sure I've seen 6K IAD jS work, but you need to get a very low airdash to confirm. Then the j.S knocks them upwards, and you don't have a double jump to chase...hm.

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Hmm, then should it be 6K > IDA jS. jH. ryujin. I wonder if some character will make you cross over them after the jS (like some character who floats horizontally which makes you IAD over them).

On the topic of YRC mix up, I wonder if ryujin YRC will turns out to be a solid high-low mix up. In my head, YRC ground ryujin would make you travel like Johnny's Zweihander, but faster, making it a safe jump. If it's auto JI, then it's greate. Otherwise, you can still JI it in your block string. Some players used it on the stream, but because they used it unintentionally, it didn't provide any advantage whatsoever.

 

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Does Jam really have no knockdown from an air combo unless it's a carded Gekirin or Ryuujin? Every Jam that I've watched on stream always has this problem. Even the supposed good ones like Teresa.

Edit:

Nevermind, just checked a #Reload match and it's just basically the same.

Edited by Moogster

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Jam never really had kd as part of her game till AC. Her mix-up game wasn't that strong till 2h kd off 6h combos that allowed for 4 way mix-up in the corner.

Whether she need kd is yet to be seen. However, considering j2k is +3 on hit, every time it hits you should be able to combo into 5p on standing and 5k on crouching. That might make getting kd worthwhile. It's basically a 13f overhead.

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Jam never really had kd as part of her game till AC. Her mix-up game wasn't that strong till 2h kd off 6h combos that allowed for 4 way mix-up in the corner.

Whether she need kd is yet to be seen. However, considering j2k is +3 on hit, every time it hits you should be able to combo into 5p on standing and 5k on crouching. That might make getting kd worthwhile. It's basically a 13f overhead.

Sure j2K is consistently +3?  Since it is multiple hits I imagine that +3 is variable based on when the final hit connects. Consistent combo's into 2D off j.2K meterless would be hella powerful.

Edited by ChaseRLewis

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