Zato-1 Ground Game: Combo/Pressure Advice and Assistance

[PerfectInput]

I know I'm not the only one out there who is having a hard time consistently landing an kind of ground Eddie/Zato combos and uninterruptable pressure/resummoning tactics so I wanted to create a thread dedicated to it.  I think, in regards to execution, it is his hardest tech to grasp.  Please, if you can help, the assistance is much needed.  Any kind of video links/tutorials with commentary, personal advice, etc....

I think my most important question comes from his basic of ground combos,...  I seem to be having a hard time linking his normal with -p- into the next normal, ending with some kind of drill or -s-.    Its all so sloppy.   is there an easy bnb to try until I get the hang of these links, or any advice on linking his normals with -p-??

 

[huber]

For your second question I'd practice 2K, -P-, over and over in the corner.  try and see how long you can keep it going for.  this isn't mid screen I know but it gives you a good feel for linking with the shadow.  after that practice midscreen:  2k, -p-, 2S+2Pxx22HS.  This should end up looking like 2K hits, shadow p hits, 2S hits, shadow p hits, far drill hits.

[Antihero11]

Linking Zato's normal with -P- isn't extremely important. Ogawa is the best Zato player in the world, and rarely does it, unless it's sandwich pressure, but then it's much easier.

Try a string like this to start: 5P > 2K > f.5S > 236P > 2S > 22HS > (move little Eddie forward) -S- > 236S (Unsummon)

This is a pretty simple string which will get you the hang of summoning and unsummoning Eddie during pressure to create some frame traps. I wish I practiced it at first, but I have a bad habit of summoning mawaru (-k-) mid-string, which can be taken advantage of by good players.

Anyways, we  may have want to move this to the general discussion thread since it's more of a question.

[huber]

I disagree.  Strong zatos often utilize linking with -P-, Ogawa included.  It's pretty important IMO. when doing longer pressure you should be able to convert with -P- because you'll have less guage. Also leave this thread open.  Hiding every question in one thread is the worst part of dustloop.  No one can find anything and I think that's why.

[Antihero11]

Ogawa doesn't use the combo you mentioned Huber. To be honest, the only linking with -P- he uses is sandwich pressure with 2K, or setting up unblockables and general poking with it.

I'm not saying don't use shadow P, it's a very versatile, excellent poke. But you don't need to link it consistently for mid-screen combos to be a good Zato player. Ogawa doesn't. AKA doesn't. But Marlinpie does, so it depends on your style and strengths. This character is so unique, he can be played many ways.

[huber]

Yeah delete dust loop forums

[Antihero11]

I'm not sure why you said that or how it's relevant to this thread to be honest. I think this thread is okay, because as you mentioned, it's tough to find stuff in the general gameplay thread.

If you said that since everyone's playstyle is unique, I'm not saying we can't learn from each other. I just don't want someone new to Zato practicing links and SG loops, since they're a very small part of playing Zato effectively. Negative edging in neutral, learning unblockables, learning mawaru mixups, and optimal pressure string are key with Zato. Also punishing people for killing little Eddie, etc.

[huber]

I'm sorry but confirming with shadow P is an important skill and practicing it will give you a good feel for controlling eddie.  I just think you're wrong. You wont always land a jumping mawaru mixup.  I think it's important to know how to confirm off of things like 2K, -p- anywhere because it's a very common block string that threatens damned fang.  And again it gives you a great feel for controlling eddie.  Telling people to practice things that help them in the long run IS what you should tell people.

[PerfectInput]

I'm sorry but confirming with shadow P is an important skill and practicing it will give you a good feel for controlling eddie.  I just think you're wrong. You wont always land a jumping mawaru mixup.  I think it's important to know how to confirm off of things like 2K, -p- anywhere because it's a very common block string that threatens damned fang.  And again it gives you a great feel for controlling eddie.  Telling people to practice things that help them in the long run IS what you should tell people.

 

This is so true 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhwrZtQK-oI

In the set Fab vs Sako, you can see it a lot.. sako confirms -p- into big damage but also can call eddie out when he recognizes nothing hits.   

[Antihero11]

I was just mentioning that Ogawa rarely does it, and he has a better grasp of the character than all of us. And I don't know why you keep misunderstanding me Huber. I never said hit confirming off of -P- wasn't important, it is extremely important! But primarily in sandwich/corner pressure. It is rarely used mid-screen in the exact string you posted. That's something Marlinpie does and not many other Zato's. Hit confirming off -P- is very important as a Zato player, just not in the aforementioned combo.

[huber]

Good lord the idea was to give him some ways to practice the concept not just list ogawa approved combos. 

[tastylumpia]

"Ogawa doesn't do it" is poor justification for not learning something.

Eddie -P- pressure is important for a number of reasons:

Costs the least amount of Eddie gauge.

Fastest startup out of the Eddie attacks.

Because it's so non-committal, allows you to quickly reset your negative input.

Since it costs so little gauge you can continue a longer stagger string. Doing 2k, -p- is a strong frame trap where every blocked hit can 50/50 for a damned fang. It also corner carries and allows you a safe unsummon. 

To make them actually scared of the low hit you need to be able to confirm the low. Lazy Eddie players (including Ogawa at times) will not confirm the low and just go for the tick grab on hit. This works to an extent but once your opponent figures this out they will start fuzzy jumping your strings and you'll wish you took a little time in training mode to learn the -P- confirm.

[KurlyBandit]

I've recently started learning Zato, can anyone suggest a blockstring that can continue pressure and/or unsummon Eddie safely if my flight mixups get blocked? midscreen I just let -K- carry them away and then I try to drill and unsummon, and in the corner I try to space myself to do the same thing

Is there any reason to not use 2P > 2K > -P- in sandwich pressure aside from damage scaling? I find that much easier than 2K > -P-

 

[Antihero11]

I was thinking about this just today KurlyBandit. I have a habit of doing mawaru pressure into 2k > 22S > unsummon with nobiru (236s). While this is great, it eats a lot of the shadow gauge and is fairly predictable.

If you release shadow P, then unsummon. Does it actually leave you at frame advantage? Or at least neutral so you can 2S then resummons. Thanks guys, I'd greatly appreciate it. As I'll start working haneru into my blockstrings some more. Special thanks to tastylumpia for the comprehensive post.

[tastylumpia]

Unsummon -P- is frame disadvantage. It's relatively safe if done at a distance, so you're essentially neutral. If you string into far drill that whiffs behind them, unsummon -P- to push them into the drill leaves you at slight advantage.

Generally your options at the end of your pressure are

Nobiru unsummon (safest option, leaves you at + frames)
Damned fang into unblockable setup
Deadman's hand setup
Let Eddie gauge run out, continue blockstring pressure or run away to stall for time

YMMV
 

[huber]

I've recently started learning Zato, can anyone suggest a blockstring that can continue pressure and/or unsummon Eddie safely if my flight mixups get blocked? midscreen I just let -K- carry them away and then I try to drill and unsummon, and in the corner I try to space myself to do the same thing

Is there any reason to not use 2P > 2K > -P- in sandwich pressure aside from damage scaling? I find that much easier than 2K > -P-

 

lows fuck people up for up/backing away from damned fang.  as far as the block string goes you have a ton of options to unsummon.  2P, 2K, -S-xx unsummon and whatever strings you can think of that end in -S- are what you want cause it's plus on block.  edit:  lmao idk how to turn off this strike through shit help

[Antihero11]

Lol. I wonder why you were striking that Huber. I was thinking, that's still applicable in revelator. And anything ending in 2S is great, since you get frame advantage nobiru. Easiest ways in my opinion are 2P > 2K > 2S (unsummon), or 2k, 22S (unsummon). The problem with the second one is that I think there is a gap between 2K and 22S. Can someone confirm this? I could have swore I've been mashed out of that before, possibly because 22S has startup frames. You can also 2K > 236S (unsummon). A lot of great zato players do that (AKA, Ogawa, Marlinpie) since it leaves frame advantage and discourages jump out. You just need to ensure you 236S and don't held S for even a split second.

[Toum]

I'd love to see this thread develop the arcanes of Zato's neutral game. I'm relatively new to Zato too, and this is by far what I struggle the most with. In the corner I can now do basic -K- mixups to combos and unblockables, but when I summon Eddie midscreen I'm kind of lost :p

Even when my opponent blocks a far drill and I summon Eddie on the puddle with Nobiru, most of the time I just don't know what to do after, and it turns out to be totally random and not-at-all-pressure-tight : ]

Help and ideas would be much appreciated ! (thanks for starting the thread PerfectInput !)

[KurlyBandit]

Thanks guys, I don't know why I never considered nobiru unsummon. Seems like such a simple answer.

[9:02 PM]

The problem with the second one is that I think there is a gap between 2K and 22S. Can someone confirm this? 

Yes, 2K is a level 2 move, so there's a gap. Zato needs a level 4 move to do a true blockstring into either drill, so 5H or 2H. That being said, you're going to be safe 95% of the time doing level 2 moves into drill, especially H drill due to the distance. Good players who know the matchup can instant block the last move in your string and IAD at you to punish if you get too lazy with your strings though.

Even when my opponent blocks a far drill and I summon Eddie on the puddle with Nobiru, most of the time I just don't know what to do after, and it turns out to be totally random and not-at-all-pressure-tight : ]

Puddle summon after a blocked H drill is more of a shenanigan than anything at this point. H drill is only +2, and realistically H drill is at a distance (especially midsrceen) where +2 is irrelevant. Because of the changes to the puddle in 1.1, your opponent can and usually will just immediately go for a 2P/2K to get rid of it since you're going to be too far away to get a solid punish. If you've done an H summon Eddie will just get hit coming out.

Go for 236H or 236S to start a basic attack, or you can do 6P/2H to stop airdashes, and 22S to stop them from running up on you. Any time you can get the shadow out in neutral with a little bit of space, you're well on your way. 

Thanks guys, I don't know why I never considered nobiru unsummon. Seems like such a simple answer.

I messed with Nobiru unsummon on my capture card for a while since I found the frame advantage to fluctuate the way I used to do it, which was release S, 236H. The most consistent way I found is 236{S}H, so you do the 236 first, then release S and plink into H or another button to unsummon.

[Toum]

Puddle summon after a blocked H drill is more of a shenanigan than anything at this point. H drill is only +2, and realistically H drill is at a distance (especially midsrceen) where +2 is irrelevant. Because of the changes to the puddle in 1.1, your opponent can and usually will just immediately go for a 2P/2K to get rid of it since you're going to be too far away to get a solid punish. If you've done an H summon Eddie will just get hit coming out.

Go for 236H or 236S to start a basic attack, or you can do 6P/2H to stop airdashes, and 22S to stop them from running up on you. Any time you can get the shadow out in neutral with a little bit of space, you're well on your way. 

Ok, I understand, so summoning Eddie with Nobiru from the puddle is more of an option to catch guys running or jumping, thinking you will summon in front of you. But that's not a safe option to let Eddie out.

If the case happens, what can you do if the opponent blocks a H drill then a Nobiru from the puddle ? My Zato seems too far from him so Eddie gets killed before I can close the gap (but maybe I mess up the timing). Do you have time to dash in and land a normal before the blockstun of the Nobiru expires ?

[KurlyBandit]

I think Ogawa tends to RC the drill or nobiru and then run in, if it's the end of the match and you just need some damage you could probably let Eddie take a hit and hit them with a counter hit. if your opponent isn't pressing buttons you can move Eddie behind the opponent before doing nobiru and he should be out of most character's range.

[9:02 PM]

Yeah, you have a bunch of options; RRC is the most expensive but also the safest. The two most likely continuations after the nobiru gets blocked are that they kill little Eddie in which case you want to get the punish (dash CH 2S -> 22H, just dash 22H, airdash j. SH, etc.), or they try to come at you in which case you have 2H/6P, air grab, BTL, etc

[Toum]

Thanks guys.

Also, what are your options when your opponent blocks a -K- midscreen ? I tend to dash in 2P > 2K > 2S > -K- then dash in 2P > 2K again / DF to corner -D-. It pushes him to the corner, but is pretty limited. The first option empties Eddie's gauge quickly and I have a hard time unsummoning AND continuing pressure. 

[KurlyBandit]

If your spacing is right you can dash jump and do a flight mixup then -S- for the combo or to keep the blockstring going. Otherwise I tend to run in and start sandwich pressure with -P- into command grab unblockable or -S- unsummon combo. You should practise doing blockstrings with -S- instead of -K- because it uses a lot less Eddie meter so you can do multiple mixups. I recommend using -K- for the first move to get the opponent to block and then do -S-  or -P- for the rest of them. But I'm still learning so there are probably better strategies.

How exactly do you do -K- > 6P to bait DPs? I eat a DP every time I try. What's my blockstring for if they don't DP?