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Johnny General Discussion

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Slight addendum to brett's post: 6P is more or less identical in terms of its properties on hit, but like many returning character's 6P's the hitbox is not nearly as useful as before. It can still be used as an anti-air against low jumps but its utility as a counter poke is fairly limited compared to before. It'll still whiff/trade against f.S type moves but no longer beats moves like Mappa for example. Better pokes all around though make this nerf more or less irrelevant, just something worth noting so you don't die due to pressing the wrong button.

Regarding matchups, I feel like Johnny doesn't really struggle against anyone besides Sin; everyone else gives you ample opportunities to hit them. You've heard it a number of times already but his new 2S is really insanely good, it reaches really far and can convert to huge damage at level 2. 6H is honestly broken, once that move is out it is not losing to anything lol. If you're getting hit by low profile it means you're either too close and/or starting too late. 5H is also a really good move too, you can legit walk up and 5H people now (especially useful against characters that normally can poke at those kinds of ranges, such as Sol).

I still stand by my earlier post in that this version of Johnny is by far the easiest. Your only real weakness as a character is that you don't have easy/reliable ways to disrespect people, but if you played Johnny before you should be used to that by now. Just IB/FD and jump out and you'll be fine. If you wanna live life on the edge, I guess you can Blitz Shield or depending on the situation 2H, but really the risk is not worth the reward compared to landing a Zweihander/j.S/j.H on your way out of the corner.

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@S_mame_skmP on twitter Uploaded a handful of useful Johnny combos on Mar 27th. If you're interested in playing Johnny and don't already have a combo source I'd recommend checking them out as they are a good base point for a number of situations. 

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Lol i am new to learning johnny anybody has any advice. right now I am trying to learn Mist finer combos. Where i am having trouble is hitting the 2nd mist finer after coin.  

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It would help if you say what specific combo you're trying to do.

 

If you're having issues doing something like High MF(2)>coin>High MF(2), then that's just a matter of knowing when to throw coin after the wall bounce and then inputting MF. You should be able to combo pretty consistently [High MF(2)>coin]xN until your coins run out without issue. If you're having trouble with this, then definitely play around with when you can act out of coin and when you should be timing coin based on distance from the wall.

 

If you're talking about something like c.S>5H>Low MF(2)>dash>(something)>coin, make sure you're actually doing another normal after the coin because I believe in most cases unless it's a f.S>coin, you'll need to do normal>coin>normal>High MF(2). This also means you have to watch the height they are on certain characters (namely the lighter ones) when you do your first normal before the coin. I have generally found dash>2P>coin>5P>High MF(2) to be most stable across various characters, but it's certainly not the most damaging.

 

If you're talking about something completely different, then the particular route you're trying to do would definitely help.

 

Outside of that, for learning, learning how to mist cancel his grounded normal is probably most important. I'd get used to mist cancelling f.S, 5H, 6H, 2H, 2S, and 2D consistently if you haven't already. Mist cancelling his j.D is pretty important as well for combo routes, but there are work arounds if you're having issue doing stuff like j.D>MC>j.D. But there is definitely no work-around for his grounded normal as you'll be severely lacking if you can't do that.

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What Elemenope said is well worded. The only thing I'd add is that the main situation I can think of where you actually are doing Coin > LV2 High (aside from throw) is when you are forced to use a ground LV2 High near the corner. Usually this forces you to do Backdash > Coin > LV2 High since the ground version causes a ton of knockback (this is why you're supposed to use 2H routes when already near the corner). Regardless though, like Elemenope said, its just a matter of timing. 

Advice wise, you can start by reviewing the dustloop wiki entry: http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=GGXRD-R/Johnny - The combo and strategy sections have some content to get you started. Reviewing the basis of the ACPR entry can also give you a decent understanding of at least what the character is like etc: http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=GGACR/Johnny

Question wise, as Elemenope mentioned, being specific is the best way to get help. 

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Just got the demo and started putting training in. Absolutely loving this incarnation of Johnny. Feels like trying on a vintage suit you haven't worn in years, and you find out that after freshening it up it still fits perfectly. Doing Stance Dash Treasure Hunt will take some getting used to but I'm slowly getting accustomed to the timing.

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A good way I use to practice mist canceling properly is trying to link CH 6H < MC < f.S or 66 c.S if you feel confident haha. I'm having trouble with 2H < MC< airdash, wondering if any of you have some kind of input tip or if you just gotta do it really fast...(Its easy to do if you re lvl3 since you can input 214SH directly but at lvl 2 im stuck).

Other than that Ive been trying to find low mist lvl 2 combos that lead into knockdown midscreen. Some kind of variation seems of
...< 214S < 66 < coin < 5S < 214P < coin < 66 < j.P < j.K < j.S < dj < j.K < j.S < j.D < ZH
seems to work on most chars but I cant find one for Potemkin for example. Is there some sort of centralized list?

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At last, Johnny is with us once more!

Some questions. 

1. I notice a lot of high level JO players doing MC jDs in their air combos...how important is this to be able to do? Execution-wise as a pad player, this is tough and will take some getting used to.

2. What is the best way to know if I'm doing Mist setups correctly? Are there any Training mode options that can help with this?

3. In some air combos, air Zwei tends to whiff...are there any combos ending with it that are universal to the cast?

 

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2 hours ago, Neanis said:

A good way I use to practice mist canceling properly is trying to link CH 6H < MC < f.S or 66 c.S if you feel confident haha. I'm having trouble with 2H < MC< airdash, wondering if any of you have some kind of input tip or if you just gotta do it really fast...(Its easy to do if you re lvl3 since you can input 214SH directly but at lvl 2 im stuck).

Other than that Ive been trying to find low mist lvl 2 combos that lead into knockdown midscreen. Some kind of variation seems of
...< 214S < 66 < coin < 5S < 214P < coin < 66 < j.P < j.K < j.S < dj < j.K < j.S < j.D < ZH
seems to work on most chars but I cant find one for Potemkin for example. Is there some sort of centralized list?

I have been using 5S>Low MF lvl2>Dash>f.S>Coin>f.S>2H>air high MF lvl2>Coin>6K>j.D>mist cancel>j.D>Zwei if I am midscreen against Pot. I have a video of it here.  https://youtu.be/NVnrWn4JAL4

If Johnny's back is near the corner then using the same combo after 6K>dash jump cancel>j.P>j.K>j.S>dj.K>j.S>j.D>Zwei

Also have been working on a corner swap combo.With Johnny's back against the corner against Axel 5K>c.S>2D>Coin>f.S>High MF lvl2>Dash>6K>j.K>j.S>dj.K>j.S>j.H>j.D>Zweihander. https://youtu.be/HH4UTKK_9fQ

 

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4 hours ago, Neanis said:

 I'm having trouble with 2H < MC< airdash, wondering if any of you have some kind of input tip or if you just gotta do it really fast...

At LV2, 2H > AMC > Airdash is mainly dependant on your height. You need to make sure you're mist cancelling when he's at the apex, any lower and you just simply can't airdash. The method I recommend that has helped me get consistent with it is to input the first 6 of the airdash at the same, or slightly later timing than the H you press for your mist cancel. So, 2H > 214[P/K/S] > 6+H > 6

 

 

4 hours ago, Neanis said:

Other than that Ive been trying to find low mist lvl 2 combos that lead into knockdown midscreen. Some kind of variation seems of
...< 214S < 66 < coin < 5S < 214P < coin < 66 < j.P < j.K < j.S < dj < j.K < j.S < j.D < ZH
seems to work on most chars but I cant find one for Potemkin for example. Is there some sort of centralized list?

LV2 Low > Dash Coin > 5P should work on Pot at certain ranges. At most ranges, LV2 Low > Dash 5K or f.S > Coin > f.S (> 2H) should be stable. If you're doing 5K, fastest 5K will make the f.S whiff after Coin, so some slight delay is necessary if you're fast/precise with your initial forward dash.

The main theory is LV2 Low > (Something) > Coin > (Something) > LV2 High, so just try various normals for chars that are giving you a hard time. The Combo section on the XrdR Dustloop wiki has some basic formulas to give you an idea. From starting position, you can generally get a dash air combo that leads to corner Zwei ender, but it is somewhat character specific.

If you're you're pretty far from the corner and you know the basic dash jump air combo won't get you close enough to the corner, your basic options are:

1) LV2 High > Coin > Airdash j.D or similar string > Air LV2 High > Coin > etc

2) LV2 High > Coin > Dash 5H > LV2 High etc

3) Combo into LV2 MID > Dash x 2 (>6H) > Stance Dash Treasure Hunt > Pickup > etc

if you want to go to the corner.

You can always just doing Coin > Dash j.S > j.H knockdown midscreen instead, also.

 

4 hours ago, Killerwatt said:

At last, Johnny is with us once more!

Some questions. 

1. I notice a lot of high level JO players doing MC jDs in their air combos...how important is this to be able to do? Execution-wise as a pad player, this is tough and will take some getting used to.

2. What is the best way to know if I'm doing Mist setups correctly? Are there any Training mode options that can help with this?

3. In some air combos, air Zwei tends to whiff...are there any combos ending with it that are universal to the cast?

 

1. jD MC is pretty important for when you are already cornered, for spacing adjustment. You can get away with not doing it, but you're probably missing out on the best corner throw routes if you avoid it.

2. Correctly in what sense? If you mean timing your YRC, the easiest way to tell is, if you YRC and press a button like f.S or 2S, it should WHIFF if you're doing it at the earliest time. If they're getting hit, it means your mist or your YRC is a bit late. In actuality it doesn't really matter that much but it can make the difference in terms of the position of the mist and affecting how many hits you need before the mist is actually on them.

3. j.D > Zwei is pretty stable. j.D > Air Zwei will whiff if they are too high above you. Reduce hits or change routes to lower them, or cut your double jump short. Or use j.S > j.H > j.D route, or j.D > MC > j.H > j.D route. 

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11 hours ago, brett_ said:

 

2. Correctly in what sense? If you mean timing your YRC, the easiest way to tell is, if you YRC and press a button like f.S or 2S, it should WHIFF if you're doing it at the earliest time. If they're getting hit, it means your mist or your YRC is a bit late. In actuality it doesn't really matter that much but it can make the difference in terms of the position of the mist and affecting how many hits you need before the mist is actually on them.

 

This is exactly what I was looking for; sorry for being unclear. Thanks so much, this is extremely helpful!

Guess I better hit the lab to practice those j.D mist cancels...can't believe that's a thing now. I'm not complaining, I swear!

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Is there a BnB primer anywhere yet? I just want 3-4 for to get started. Something midscreen with coin/LvL2/3 and something corner with coin/lvl2/3. 

 

- Kimoabae 

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Here's my entirely unoptimal simple combo list, so take it with a grain of salt. That said there are a few details in these combos that will change depending on characters/the height you start your air combo at.

midscreen
lvl 2-3
...< 214S < 66 < coin < 5S < 214P < coin < 66 < j.P < j.K < j.S < dj < j.K < j.S (< j.H) < j.D < ZH
* 66 < 5S < coin < 5S or 5P works better for certain characters. If you can't get ZH to hit you probably arent dashing close enough before j.P. Just do 214P< coin < 66 < j.S<j.H for KD if you really can't find another way.

throw/6K< j.K< j.S (< j.D) < 214P < coin <  6K < air combo

corner
lvl 2-3
...< 214K < 66 < 66 < 6H < coin < c.S  < j.D < MC < j.S < dj < j.K < j.S < j.D <ZH
*if you have to many hits before 214K you'll have to do 66 < 66 < c.S < coin < c.S

throw/6K<  j.D < MC < j.S < dj < j.K < j.S < j.D <ZH

And I think with that you'll have the combo basics down. You shouldnt skip j.D < MC even its tempting to at first because MC its pretty crucial for neutral too.

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Yeah, I played viper in SF4 and dabbled with Johnny a bit in passed GGs so MC isn't anything completely unfamiliar to me.

 

I hate learning new characters haha. Learning combos in particular. 

 

Thanks much for the help!

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Spuck said:

I read through this, and I'm not entirely getting what 'stuff' means in the context of the combos. Or what the standard air combo off a throw is?

Standard combo off air throw would be like: Throw>Dash Jump>j.P>j.K>j.S>dj.K>j.S>j.D>Zweihander. There are other variations depending on character but that is the basic setup. To get a level 2 mist ready then it would be: Throw>Coin>High MF lvl2>Coin>Dash Jump>j.P>j.K>j.S>dj.K>j.S>j.D>Zwei. There is more optimal combos based on character and screen position though.

Edit: Also 'stuff' just means whatever gatling before it. Instead of listing every gatling that works they just wrote 'stuff' to mean any gatling that works into it. Same with Etc. after lvl 2 high since there are many followups and most are character and positioning specific. 

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15 hours ago, Red Star said:

Standard combo off air throw would be like: Throw>Dash Jump>j.P>j.K>j.S>dj.K>j.S>j.D>Zweihander. There are other variations depending on character but that is the basic setup. To get a level 2 mist ready then it would be: Throw>Coin>High MF lvl2>Coin>Dash Jump>j.P>j.K>j.S>dj.K>j.S>j.D>Zwei. There is more optimal combos based on character and screen position though.

Edit: Also 'stuff' just means whatever gatling before it. Instead of listing every gatling that works they just wrote 'stuff' to mean any gatling that works into it. Same with Etc. after lvl 2 high since there are many followups and most are character and positioning specific. 

Cool, starting to get things working with him, but finding the basic air combo whiffing the Zweihander against a bunch of characters, guess there are character specific variations?

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On 4/7/2016 at 0:14 AM, Spuck said:

I read through this, and I'm not entirely getting what 'stuff' means in the context of the combos. Or what the standard air combo off a throw is?

Both of those points have explanations on the wiki about them, though that update was a few days ago - maybe you missed it?

17 hours ago, Spuck said:

Cool, starting to get things working with him, but finding the basic air combo whiffing the Zweihander against a bunch of characters, guess there are character specific variations?

Air Zweihander is only guaranteed to connect in the corner universally. Beyond that, it depends on your spacing, dash momentum, and the character's hurtbox.

For example, the basic bnb midscreen from starting position of Stuff > LV2 Low > Dash Coin > 5P > LV2 High > Coin > Dash j.PKS > dj > j.KSD > Zweikasu will work on many characters, but not consistently on all. That's because its literally just coincidence that that starting position is close enough to the corner. If you start it from 1 character width or two farther from the corner, you should notice that many characters that it worked for just flat out won't work anymore. That's because the Zweihander is only connecting from j.D because the corner is preventing them from flying away.

If you want to connect an air combo to Zweihander completely midscreen, you should basically always assume its situational. This does not mean that its impractical. It means its not something you should expect via basic combo theory. You're going to connect your Zweihander midscreen because you know a specific string in that situation that will work, or because you got lucky and the character is fat enough in the air. Basically Air Zweihander is not a dial-mode combo ender unless you're near the corner. It is not May's Ensenga, or Potemkin's ICPM, or Sol doing VV Ender. I apologize if I'm going overboard with this distinction but its really important, and unfortunately, because the wiki has no movelist entries, there's no documented explanation at the moment regarding this move and why / when it works the way it does. And this is not necessarily directed just at Spuck, but basically anyone new. 

 

Anyways this is why its recommended to start by getting used to using the j.S > j.H knockdown route. Now granted, though I say its somewhat specific, Johnny's corner carry in this version is kind of ridiculous so "corner" combos can really start from about half screen. But it's still important to know the distinction, so that you don't just try and adlib an air combo midscreen without knowing whats going on and try and tag a Zweihander at the end.

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58 minutes ago, brett_ said:

Both of those points have explanations on the wiki about them, though that update was a few days ago - maybe you missed it?

Air Zweihander is only guaranteed to connect in the corner universally. Beyond that, it depends on your spacing, dash momentum, and the character's hurtbox.

For example, the basic bnb midscreen from starting position of Stuff > LV2 Low > Dash Coin > 5P > LV2 High > Coin > Dash j.PKS > dj > j.KSD > Zweikasu will work on many characters, but not consistently on all. That's because its literally just coincidence that that starting position is close enough to the corner. If you start it from 1 character width or two farther from the corner, you should notice that many characters that it worked for just flat out won't work anymore. That's because the Zweihander is only connecting from j.D because the corner is preventing them from flying away.

If you want to connect an air combo to Zweihander completely midscreen, you should basically always assume its situational. This does not mean that its impractical. It means its not something you should expect via basic combo theory. You're going to connect your Zweihander midscreen because you know a specific string in that situation that will work, or because you got lucky and the character is fat enough in the air. Basically Air Zweihander is not a dial-mode combo ender unless you're near the corner. It is not May's Ensenga, or Potemkin's ICPM, or Sol doing VV Ender. I apologize if I'm going overboard with this distinction but its really important, and unfortunately, because the wiki has no movelist entries, there's no documented explanation at the moment regarding this move and why / when it works the way it does. And this is not necessarily directed just at Spuck, but basically anyone new. 

 

Anyways this is why its recommended to start by getting used to using the j.S > j.H knockdown route. Now granted, though I say its somewhat specific, Johnny's corner carry in this version is kind of ridiculous so "corner" combos can really start from about half screen. But it's still important to know the distinction, so that you don't just try and adlib an air combo midscreen without knowing whats going on and try and tag a Zweihander at the end.

Great post Brett. While I like Zweihander and look forward to seeing this move's potential, I must say that I miss Ensenga. I don't mind much that we can't improvise air combos on the fly like we could in previous versions but Ensenga was just so damn reliable as a combo ender. Even now as I train up, sometimes my muscle memory overrides the new aspects of Johnny and I'll try to end an air combos with a qcf+H like that move still exists, haha, Maybe Johnny's trying to sober up!

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2 minutes ago, Killerwatt said:

Great post Brett. While I like Zweihander and look forward to seeing this move's potential, I must say that I miss Ensenga. I don't mind much that we can't improvise air combos on the fly like we could in previous versions but Ensenga was just so damn reliable as a combo ender. Even now as I train up, sometimes my muscle memory overrides the new aspects of Johnny and I'll try to end an air combos with a qcf+H like that move still exists, haha, Maybe Johnny's trying to sober up!

While I am getting used to doing j.D > LV1 High as a LV1 random ender, I am 100% guilty of being absolute garbage at confirming random j.S into any air mist finer. Whenever I hit ppl with j.S my head is filled with "OOOH ENSENGA!", the ghost hands perform the move, and then in game I fall gently to the floor without doing anything :)

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1 minute ago, brett_ said:

While I am getting used to doing j.D > LV1 High as a LV1 random ender, I am 100% guilty of being absolute garbage at confirming random j.S into any air mist finer. Whenever I hit ppl with j.S my head is filled with "OOOH ENSENGA!", the ghost hands perform the move, and then in game I fall gently to the floor without doing anything :)

Glad I'm not the only one! What's worse; the new, reversed inputs for Mist Finer. Calling it now: I am going to lose so much fucking damage in this exact manner:

1. Successfully counter hit or mixup
2. Start combo
3. Get reset to neutral because I did qcf instead of qcb for Mist Finer input.
4. Lose the round/match

FML. T_T

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