Johnny General Discussion

[shtkn]

this is absolutely an issue in SIGN. as ky or sol knock down the opponent and do stun edge/gunflame YRC. if you do it too fast, it will be red. They are in OTG hitstun when they are knocked down until they start doing the wakeup animation.

[qwerty]

Yeah, I was thinking that this had been around since day one. I haven't seen someone do Gunflame PRC oki in awhile though lol.

@Killerwatt: RC Zweihander should let you do mist without YRC, plus time to do a backdash and meaty coin if you're close enough to the corner. After the RC you basically plummet to the ground while your opponent is still floating so you have a lot of time to work with. It probably helps too to get the opponent as high as possible in your combo (doing throw -> dash jump -> PKSPKDZ instead of PPDZ for example).

[brett_]

Basically all of your old throw and Lv2 Mid combos will work, you just have to alter the timing for dash jump/IAD.  IAD after coin is now a cancel instead of a link, so just mash it out as fast as you can and you'll probably get it.

Did you just say coin is jump cancellable?

Now that coin and MF don't share the same motion anymore, I wonder if it's possible to do a MF cancel by pressing MF button and HS at the same time instead of plinking (like Pot can execute his hammerfall -> break)?

I guess it could make the cancel a bit faster and easier to do

I forgot to mention that I had tenkai confirm that this is not the case.

[qwerty]

@brett: That's what I've been told and that's definitely what it feels like when I do coin -> IAD combos. Using AC/+R timing I was always airdashing way too late, but once I was told it's a cancel and started doing it with cancel timing it worked just fine. I know for a fact that coin is FD cancelable towards the end of recovery so it being jump cancelable isn't too far out there. I should confirm this at some point by just trying it in a blockstring, that never occured to me before now lol.

[brett_]

@brett: That's what I've been told and that's definitely what it feels like when I do coin -> IAD combos. Using AC/+R timing I was always airdashing way too late, but once I was told it's a cancel and started doing it with cancel timing it worked just fine. I know for a fact that coin is FD cancelable towards the end of recovery so it being jump cancelable isn't too far out there. I should confirm this at some point by just trying it in a blockstring, that never occured to me before now lol.

This is apparently not the case, though what you may be experiencing is the fact that the total duration of Coin got reduced from 20 to 17 frames. I'm pretty sure this whole cancelling into FD is also not true.

[qwerty]

Upon further investigation, that does appear to be the case. I stand corrected.

[brett_]

I'm just kind of mindblown at how thinking Coin is jump cancellable would not immediately set off all kinds of alarms lol....

[qwerty]

To be honest, I'm trying to minimize my coin usage outside of combos as much as possible. Already you're spending 2-3 coins per combo on average and if you want a mist setup that can beat Blitz Shield you can add another to that. That's why I've been focusing on poking and pressuring using mostly normals, which has become much easier than before since new 2S and 6H are both really, really good.

Sorry for the confusion, I guess you can't believe everything you hear at the arcade lol.

[xlolxlolx]

i think just mentioning 2s and 6hs is a huge understatement considering all of his new normals are incredibly strong

if anything i'd give more credit to the new hitboxes on f.s and his 2hs is pretty damn ridiculous for a move that's supposedly 15f startup

[qwerty]

I agree that all of his new normals are good, but 2S and 6H particularly stand out for me. 2S now reaches farther than 2D, which I believe is a first for Johnny. Combined with the frame advantage from Mist Cancel it's basically the old 2S on steroids.

6H is really something else though. It gives him frametrap ability at nearly half screen and beats a lot of moves you wouldn't think it would (it beats Elphelt's slide clean!). It will still lose to low profile moves but past that it is really something to be feared.

I like 2H a lot too, I just don't have a good handle on it yet. It seems like a good meaty for when the opponent can't Blitz Shield and it can lead to a high/low mixup even at Level 1. Pretty good anti-air too.

[Killerwatt]

I agree that all of his new normals are good, but 2S and 6H particularly stand out for me. 2S now reaches farther than 2D, which I believe is a first for Johnny. Combined with the frame advantage from Mist Cancel it's basically the old 2S on steroids.

6H is really something else though. It gives him frametrap ability at nearly half screen and beats a lot of moves you wouldn't think it would (it beats Elphelt's slide clean!). It will still lose to low profile moves but past that it is really something to be feared.

I like 2H a lot too, I just don't have a good handle on it yet. It seems like a good meaty for when the opponent can't Blitz Shield and it can lead to a high/low mixup even at Level 1. Pretty good anti-air too.

In watching matches, it looks like I've seen Kanchiku (sp?) use 2H in pressure strings as a high/low mixup option, whereupon after the 2H, it looks like it puts Johnny in an airborne state, and he will cancel into air MF mid/low for instant overhead? Or am I making that up? While on the topic, are all versions of air MF able to be blocked low?

[qwerty]

Karinchu, and yes, 2H does put you airborne. Your options on block are height dependent so you'll have to figure out the best Mist Cancel timing for what you want to use it for. At level 1 I sometimes have difficulty with timing the MC correctly for a high/low mixup so I usually either just land and block or cancel into low MF. At level 2 however it's pretty easy to get the perfect positioning for a mixup so you can just do whatever you want. Pretty sure mid and high air MF are overheads, I've seen people TK them in the corner, but maybe they just aren't being blocked.

[xlolxlolx]

all air mist finers should be overheads

2hs lvl2 and 3 mist cancel lets him do alot of crazy stuff, many times stronger than just cancelling into an air mf

[qwerty]

Learned a lot last night. First off it is possible to combo off of airthrow even midscreen! Saw someone do f.S Lv2 Mid for corner carry. I'll have to try this for myself to see how hard it is but yeah.

Also a universal follow-up for Lv2 Low: dash 2S coin f.S Lv2 High etc.

Lastly I came up with a dirty trick that works really well: 2H Air Low MF YRC into instant overhead j.K. Should work on everyone.

[Rhannmah]

From what i've seen, it seems that you can combo from an airthrow anywhere if you airthrow low to the ground, so you have time to drop down and recover before the ground bounce is over. I suspect the lower you airthrow, the easier it is to combo after it.

[qwerty]

It doesn't seem (too) height dependent actually. 5K works on characters f.S doesn't work on and the timing is pretty similar. You want to hit them right as they bounce.

Played a lot of the mirror match today, 6K is really fucking good against Johnny. Because of its frame advantage you can do almost anything after normal block, including but not limited to just doing 6K until they get hit. Obviously other characters will have invincible moves that make 6K less appealing but it is still a good move.

6H is obviously great too, catches Johnny doing anything at the right range.

[qwerty]

Honestly, I think this is by far the easiest version of Johnny. New inputs and combos will take some getting used to but past that he is incredibly easy compared to any previous version of the character. Spacing is way easier thanks to his new normals and your corner oki is as one dimensional as it seems. Anyone who had a decent handle on this character in the past should have no issues picking him up in Revelator, and even new players or people who've never used him before can probably get the hang of things pretty quickly.

[Killerwatt]

Honestly, I think this is by far the easiest version of Johnny. New inputs and combos will take some getting used to but past that he is incredibly easy compared to any previous version of the character. Spacing is way easier thanks to his new normals and your corner oki is as one dimensional as it seems. Anyone who had a decent handle on this character in the past should have no issues picking him up in Revelator, and even new players or people who've never used him before can probably get the hang of things pretty quickly.

Music to my ears!

Console release WHEN?!?!?

[Baf0]

Lots of Omito Johnny in here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T47Ak_dyOP4

[ivanchu77]

GGXrdR 12/27/15- Karinchu (Johnny) Matches

Karinchu (Johnny)

VS

Tomo (Leo), Tanabata (Slayer), Nakamura (Millia), Toruso? (Millia), Maruhan (Sol) Nage (Faust), DC (Sin), Hase (Slayer)

 

 

 

[ivanchu77]

GGXrdR 1/2/16- Sanma (Johnny) Matches

Sanma (Johnny)

VS

Shimokin (Axl), May, Hase (Slayer)

 

 

 

[Iliad]

Sorry this thread's kind of old but I had a few questions for people who've been hands-on with Johnny

What's the name of the airborne downward orange kick that guarantees a knockdown? Is that Zweihander, or is Zweihander the grounded command jump version?

Is 6P jump cancellable? Does it put them airborne, like in AC?

Can you dash brake or jump cancel his forward dash? Is it airborne in the middle?

What does mist-cancelling feel like in Revelator? Like AC, where there's a slight hold before you hit HS to cancel it? Or can you plink QCF+normal with HS to instant-MC, like SF4 Makoto?

At what point is 2HS airborne? Could you 2HS, immediate YRC for an instant overhead?

Can 5HS or even 6HS touch Eddie on the floor? Since you can special cancel normals off of Eddie, mist cancelling a far normal might make setting up Eddie against Johnny really difficult without a knockdown. As an aside, can you special cancel off of Jack-O's barracks? If so, if you can MC well enough, Johnny could destroy those things really quickly

At higher MF levels, does mist cancelling have different properties? Can you MFC faster at level 2 and 3? Does this mean you can only get some combos if you're holding on to your MF levels? LIke j.HS xx MFC -> j.HS xx MFC etc is only possible at MF level 2 or 3?

Can you otg with Treasure Hunt? If so, what happens with untech time after that enormous launch?

How does Bacchus Sigh work in this game? Does it make all levels of MF unblockable? Why aren't Johnnys doing knockdown  -> BS YRC -> coin -> MF Stance and let MF rip right after the coin OTGs for a free level 2 MF and big corner combo? I feel like I don't have all the details, because it seems so simple that every Johnny would be doing it if it were that easy.

Who does Johnny struggle most against? He has no reversal to handle Millia, Elphelt and Zato, but neither do they. Does his own gameplan make up for his lack of defensive options, like Millia?

The most recent JP opinion writeup I can find is this one: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1snsefh   Have opinions changed since then? Is he still considered top five or really strong, even after the nerf to his airthrow?

Thanks to anybody that responds

EDIT: Also, how useful is 6K? I know it's -4 on block, and an easy combo on counter hit, but can you follow up  on a regular grounded hit?

[brett_]

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Sorry this thread's kind of old but I had a few questions for people who've been hands-on with Johnny

This thread is probably going to blow up in about 4 months, so no worries. I have very limited experience playing Rev Johnny but I'll try and answer these questions as best I can. There are other JO players living in Japan who lurk here who are more than welcome to correct / clarify my answers.

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What's the name of the airborne downward orange kick that guarantees a knockdown? Is that Zweihander, or is Zweihander the grounded command jump version?

Zweihander is both. Air version is a kick with fire that knocks down. Ground does the forward leap motion, then an additional button press makes a similar kick w/ fire. This is identical to how Divine Blade / Killer Joker have functioned in the past, though the input is now 623K. 

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Is 6P jump cancellable? Does it put them airborne, like in AC?

6P is identical

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Can you dash brake or jump cancel his forward dash? Is it airborne in the middle?

You can jump cancel his forward dash, basically at any point, including startup, and recovery. You cannot FD cancel it in the middle of the dash. The later portion of its recovery frames can be cancelled into FD, among other things. It should be throw invincible and go over lows still (need to confirm this), but if you YRC his forward dash, he is not airborne.

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What does mist-cancelling feel like in Revelator? Like AC, where there's a slight hold before you hit HS to cancel it? Or can you plink QCF+normal with HS to instant-MC, like SF4 Makoto?

mist cancel is identical to AC in terms of frame data. There is a bit more hitstop in Xrd compared to XX, though, so even more of a "slight hold" may feel necessary. 

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At what point is 2HS airborne? Could you 2HS, immediate YRC for an instant overhead?

don't think we know the frames but you should be able to 2H YRC, yeah. 

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Can 5HS or even 6HS touch Eddie on the floor? Since you can special cancel normals off of Eddie, mist cancelling a far normal might make setting up Eddie against Johnny really difficult without a knockdown. As an aside, can you special cancel off of Jack-O's barracks? If so, if you can MC well enough, Johnny could destroy those things really quickly

5H and 6H should be able to hit a stationary Eddie. At a spacing where 5H'ing Eddie would be a threat, Zato is probably in a range where he can threaten to Drill anyways, so it is not that big of an issue, but he can definitely use coin and mist finer low, as well as 2S, to hit Eddie. Proper usage of Drill to protect Eddie is important. Generally you can keep it alive if you play well, though Zato must respect Coin, but Coin is a limited resource. Think of like Sol and gunflame. Annoying, but doesnt really shut him down completely by itself. The above is based on my experience playing the MU in previous versions, but it should still stand.

RE Jack-O: I recall hitting certain things of hers counting as a whiff, rather than a hit, but I dont remember if its the houses or the goons. Possibly both? Best to check the Jack O info.

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At higher MF levels, does mist cancelling have different properties? Can you MFC faster at level 2 and 3? Does this mean you can only get some combos if you're holding on to your MF levels? LIke j.HS xx MFC -> j.HS xx MFC etc is only possible at MF level 2 or 3?

level affects the startup on mist finer. So yes, there are some combos that only work at certain levels. Please refer to the mist cancel chart on the Johnny ACR wiki for reference. Example: 2H > MC > airdash j.P, 5H>5H, and f.S>f.S only combo at LV2.

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Can you otg with Treasure Hunt? If so, what happens with untech time after that enormous launch?

-Not sure. My guess is that if it hits OTG either a) it does not pop up and they just plummet (This happens with his air super in +R) or b) it launches he's still in OTG state so any subsequent hits make him fall out (what happens if you J super RC in +R). 

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How does Bacchus Sigh work in this game? Does it make all levels of MF unblockable? Why aren't Johnnys doing knockdown  -> BS YRC -> coin -> MF Stance and let MF rip right after the coin OTGs for a free level 2 MF and big corner combo? I feel like I don't have all the details, because it seems so simple that every Johnny would be doing it if it were that easy.

(I'm assuming you mean right after the coin forces block, not OTG) Bacchus Sigh functions the same way it did in previous versions. However, this version of Bacchus sigh spawns really far behind Johnny, and Zwei knockdown sets them kinda far from him in many combos, so often times if you mist YRC and coin, the mist will not stick on them in time. You will often see mist YRC > coin > 2S > unblockable and YRC > coin > coin > UB instead. You can blitzshield both 2S and the coin as ways to escape, so usually if you see Johnny players not doing oki after mist YRC, its because they're baiting some sort of reversal attempt. Even without going for unblockable, being at LV2 and them misted is still an extremely favorable situation, so many players opt to avoid the mixup of going for UB. Compared to AC, it is much easier to escape in general, due to the presence of blitzshield and the mist location. There is also the fact that most Johnny players, JP especially, tend to overthink their unblockable setups and excessively play around the escape options instead. 

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Who does Johnny struggle most against? He has no reversal to handle Millia, Elphelt and Zato, but neither do they. Does his own gameplan make up for his lack of defensive options, like Millia?

I'm not going to pretend to know a lot about his actual MU's in Revelator, though according to that esports runner list, Sin gives him the hardest time? Since Johnny is very much based on risk/reward, its pretty hard to even use old matchup info as a basis, since his reward / abare is so much more skewed in Revelator. Though Johnny does lack some defensive options, the general determining factors for what matchups were tough or not for him basically had to do with evaluating a) difficulty of getting in, and b) reward once you do get on them. Some past examples to illustrate that would be matchups like Testament, Zappa, Faust, where getting in on them is extremely tough, and maintaining momentum on them also has their difficulties. Thus generally considered unfavorable matchups. Meanwhile, matchups like Millia, Eddie, Chipp, were matchups where Johnny struggles to get in, but once he does, is able to get so much reward that the matchup is either even or slight Johnny favor. Revelator Johnny has a lot of extra things that change both factors in his favor. It's easier for him to get in due to things like Zweihander YRC, the more zoomed in camera, etc. He also gets way more of a reward off if basically any hit. Practically any hit he gets will generally lead to corner carry into unblockable setup. His air to air abare and ability to get knockdowns off of anything are probably the biggest improvements in this regard, allowing him to preserve his momentum.  Not to mention easy zweikasu.

The buff to 2S is also honestly BY ITSELF a game changer, since once of Johnny's old glaring weaknesses was that most of his primary pokes were easily low profiled (5K, f.S, 5H, 6H, Coin), and was forced to use 2K and 2S to stuff them, both of which were pretty mediocre moves in XX. Since 2S is amazing now though, its no longer a handicap to use them. The buff to 2S alone is probably an extremely integral part to improving many of his matchups, such as SO, IN, FA, and MA.

An easy way to think of it is that in Revelator, they gave him very many tools that inherently made up for his actual weaknesses. So he doesn't really struggle as much as in previous versions,

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The most recent JP opinion writeup I can find is this one: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1snsefh   Have opinions changed since then? Is he still considered top five or really strong, even after the nerf to his airthrow?

He is definitely still considered really strong, generally considered S. I would not even bother thinking about the "nerf"s that he got. It's very minor in the overall scope of how the character functions. 

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Also, how useful is 6K? I know it's -4 on block, and an easy combo on counter hit, but can you follow up  on a regular grounded hit?

6K is very useful. It's +2, not -4. Any move that moves you forward and is + on block is good in my book :P. On top of that it low profiles under a lot of moves, gives you great damage on CH, and moves you hella forward. The current 6K is extremely strong due to the presence of moves like 6H which will easily punish attempts to stuff 6K. You can follow up on a grounded hit, because it launches, leading to an air combo + KD at the very least. More if at LV2.

[greatfernman]

6 hours ago, Iliad said:

As an aside, can you special cancel off of Jack-O's barracks? If so, if you can MC well enough, Johnny could destroy those things really quickly

The most recent JP opinion writeup I can find is this one: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1snsefh   Have opinions changed since then? Is he still considered top five or really strong, even after the nerf to his airthrow?

Jack-O summons are like Bedman's seals and Zato's puddles, destroying them preserves your active frames (albeit consuming one active frame, though idk for sure if Jack-O's stuff consumes an active frame, but it does preserve them for sure), and therefore does not allow cancels.

most recent jp opinion i have is https://www.evernote.com/shard/s296/sh/9de5d092-76dc-4394-8d90-bfd326aab9d7/78786a55576dda4ee05b53c5776ec374

this isn't the opinion of a single top player, but rather an opinion piece by the GG writers of the eSportsRunner website after taking multiple players' opinions into account, so take it as you will.

[AStat]

Thought I'd just expand upon some stuff I read in Brett's long post, however I'm only a 12th dan and didn't play him extensively in +R so take that with a grain of salt.

Treasure Hunter: The ideal situation is where they fall from the sky after and you can continue your combo. For this to happen you need to cancel mist stance into Treasure Hunter (63214[K]656S while the opponent is airborne). I have great diffuculty with this but it is more than possible, just awkward.

I don't know if it's something to do with combo hights or fall speed, but it feels like you delay coins more after airborne MF high. you generally only go for MFHigh>land>coin>iad>shit for corner carry as anything after the first MF gets scaled pretty heavy outside of his midscreen shit that is shit>MFLow starter

Brett has said this a lot, but I really want to emphasize that 2S is AMAZING. It makes haracters that aren't fast (Millia,Chipp etc.) hate themselves. However (I believe like XX Johhny) he doesn't have true sword normals. Things like 2S, 2HS, and especially j.HS definitely have hurtboxes on the swords. All this means is be careful with your spacing against characters like Ky. Personally I struggle most with figuring out how to actually land the hit once I get the guard bar cranked. 

 

I guess if anyone has questions I can try my best to answer them.