Ky vs. Faust

[StrawberryGL]

Discussion thread for the Ky vs. Faust matchup.

 

Video Database

ENG: http://keeponrockin.meteor.com/?character1=kyk&character2=fau

JP: http://horibuna.web.fc2.com/GGXrd/GGXrd_KY.html#FA

 

Frame Data

Ky: http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php/GGXRD-R/Ky_Kiske/Frame_Data

Faust: http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php/GGXRD-R/Faust/Frame_Data

[Kizzercrate]

Because it's fresh in my mind and I want to get a couple of things down:

-Landing safely is of utmost importance.  Easiest rule here would be to just not jump; Faust's suite of anti-airs and the resulting air combo make sure that you're no better off at getting in while missing chunks of life.  Second easiest rule would be to make sure to FD on the way down either from the air combo or just from jumping in general.

-Ky 6P is a great answer to f.S.  CH 6P > f.S > Stun Dipper is good damage and corner carry, which we can't complain about.  

-Yeah, he can crawl under Stun Edges, but we can also use that to just get in and create pressure.  2S is great for this, especially if Faust likes to 2P as you run in to catch you slipping.  

-Just hold that 2K oki.  Block low and then see what else is going to happen next.  It's JCable which means bursting is a huge problem if he reads it.  It's 3 hits, which is absurdly good.  It hits pretty high so it also works as an anti-air.  Oh, and it low profiles Vapor Thrust.

My big question though: is there a consistent answer to j.2K?  Jumping and IBing is probably the most consistent, but is near impossible at lower heights.  Depending on height, j.2K can stuff and CH our regular AA normals for big damage.    

[www.keeponrock.in]

My big question though: 

is there a consistent answer to j.2K?  

Jumping and IBing is probably the most consistent, but is near impossible at lower heights.  Depending on height, j.2K can stuff and CH our regular AA normals for big damage.    

If you want to anti-air J2K, you probably have to do it preemptively. The difficulty in anti-airing J2K is that often you don't see it early enough to get a move out in time, so either you react to Faust's positioning with a fairly active move like 2H, or you use a move with invincibility or upper body invul if you're trying to react. Of course, if it's too deep you won't be able to use your upper body invul.

[shtkn]

you can low profile Faust j.2K with ky's stun dipper if you're fast enough, found that in training mode, buit i haven't fought much faust, so idk if it's actually practical

[SoWL]

On Faust's side, I find this to be a match-up where I have to stay in the air for a while, as SE covers way too much horizontal space that you can't out-poke. On the other hand, our aerial buttons can fit pretty much any purpose, and FDC serves as a nice anti-anti-air measure. Don't forget about j.D: it might lack j.S's damage, but it got more active frames, so it's easier to jump in with it.

If Ky knocks you down, you can play around his 6HS oki with 5D YRC. If he goes for a different timing, you can go for a reversal super; not sure if either of those can counteract 236HS oki since it lasts for so long, but trying to crawl under it will only make you regret it.

[www.keeponrock.in]

On the contrary, I find I want to stay on the ground as much as possible. I always want to be in a good position to punish Ky from doing any sort of jumping and I'm only going to jump if I feel like the Ky is over-committing to controlling the ground. To get around S SEs I want to use either crawl or jump immediate FDC or drill kick to get back to the ground asap. Anytime he's in recovery from SE you can use that time to get out an item if you're far enough. I do have problems with the S split ceils though.

For jumping in on Ky, my preferred anti-anti-air is the bomb bag. This gets blown up by Ky's rising JK if he's anticipating it, but usually that's not on reaction so it's probably fine. The go-to jump in to punish stun edge or whatever is JP. I see a lot of Japanese Fausts use it often and it leads to nice things on block, like JP-JK-jc J2K-(GMW) for some good frame advantage. Generally you want to do it pretty early so that the other Ky won't be able to anti-air in time, but it carries the risk of whiffing if they crouch until the last minute. (!!) If they like going for the crouching until the last minute you can fall back to JK or J2K.

If I'm knocked down by Ky, I'll maybe test 5D, but the best thing is just to block. Just make sure to target your responses at the moment right after 6K or 6H. As long as you vary your mashes and can execute fuzzy jump properly, it's not so bad. As for meatie projectiles, you can try to blitz if the spacing is bad, otherwise you just have to hold that.

[Ando]

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WT45M7jRYE

Ain probably should have taken some notes on bursting himself.

Navigating around HS Stun Edge proved to be a set defining situation, you'll jump in a lot more in this matchup compared to most as Faust. Make use of j. 2K, FD cancels and Bomb Bag to keep your aerial advances harder to deal with for Ky than a simple hit of 2HS.

The interaction of Stun Dipper and j. 2K is a finicky one but generally the later you do j. 2K the more likely you will win, you can also just go for the sure win by doing 236S instead.

[www.keeponrock.in]

[lofo]

Against most characters, if they try to superjump airdash out of the corner and Ky is spaced properly, he can superjump airthrow them back into the corner to catch it, but Faust's extremely high superjump and long airdash seem to make this impossible. I don't see Fausts going for superjump airdash to get out of the corner, though. Is there another good option against it?

Mixing in superjump "love" seems decent as well, I see good Fausts go for that occasionally.

Faust's ability to crouch block under airdashes during DC CSE and avoid the high part of the mixup seems to limit Ky's pressure options to low/throw and frame traps, so being able to catch his corner escape attempts seems really important.

[xlolxlolx]

faust's air dash is far too long and slow for it to be used as an escape, bag is alot safer as ky cant actually chase after him reliably on reaction to a high jump bag, he's basically free to do w/e he wants afterward since the situation puts him in arguably a much more favorable position as he can further slow his fall with drill fd cancels and w/e, its possible to beat this situation depending on what they do but its more than likely to return to neutral

[lofo]

Thanks for the reply.

Faust's airdash can be cancelled with drill FDC so the length doesn't matter, and the speed doesn't matter either if I can't reach him during it. Even if I manage to tag him with something like j.DP, I can't knock him down or get him back in the corner, so he's essentially escaped. My question was how, specifically, to stop this.

[www.keeponrock.in]

Something like this

(1m9s to 1m28s)

Edit: To a little bit in depth, when you're trying to air throw Faust that high, you want to go for a 'fuzzy' air throw. That is, you want to be blocking all the way up to the moment you can air throw him in case he does any attack before you reach him. If this is common sense to you, good!

In this situation, Faust has a few options besides going through with the dash.

1) FDC and do j.D right away, which would be punishable on block at that height and unsafe to cancel into 'Going My Way'.

2) FDC and go for an air string j.PKPKPK..., which would lose to anti-airs and rising jump normals. If blocked, he could gain a bit of pressure, but he would still be in the corner.

3) Throw a bag, if you jump at him and block the bag, the bag will explode on Faust and you get a knockdown. (I think) If you try to hit him, there's a chance the bag could still explode on him too and you both get a knockdown. If you stay on the ground, the bag will give Faust frame advantage.

On 2015-12-28 at 1:02 PM, lofo said:

Faust's ability to crouch block under airdashes during DC CSE and avoid the high part of the mixup seems to limit Ky's pressure options to low/throw and frame traps

Are you sure this is true? I know doing low airdashes is actually extremely difficult online, but I'm pretty sure he can't crouch under j.S if he's blocking a durandal CSE and even if he could crawl under it, you could hit crawl with a low without fear of being mashed on.

[lofo]

2 hours ago, www.keeponrock.in said:

Something like this

(1m9s to 1m28s)

Edit: To a little bit in depth, when you're trying to air throw Faust that high, you want to go for a 'fuzzy' air throw. That is, you want to be blocking all the way up to the moment you can air throw him in case he does any attack before you reach him. If this is common sense to you, good!

In this situation, Faust has a few options besides going through with the dash.

1) FDC and do j.D right away, which would be punishable on block at that height and unsafe to cancel into 'Going My Way'.

2) FDC and go for an air string j.PKPKPK..., which would lose to anti-airs and rising jump normals. If blocked, he could gain a bit of pressure, but he would still be in the corner.

3) Throw a bag, if you jump at him and block the bag, the bag will explode on Faust and you get a knockdown. (I think) If you try to hit him, there's a chance the bag could still explode on him too and you both get a knockdown. If you stay on the ground, the bag will give Faust frame advantage.

Are you sure this is true? I know doing low airdashes is actually extremely difficult online, but I'm pretty sure he can't crouch under j.S if he's blocking a durandal CSE and even if he could crawl under it, you could hit crawl with a low without fear of being mashed on.

Oh, that clip is very helpful. Ky's superjump can't reach, but the airdash is slow enough that he has time to do a double jump, which will reach. That is the kind of thing I was looking for! If Ky can reach then yeah, Faust's escape options with superjump airdash are very limited. Thanks.

WRT durandal CSE, I saw Nage going for crouching under it and punishing and I missed it a few times so I figured it wasn't possible, but testing it now it seems to be, so I'll work on that. Nage crouching under it looks like this

 

but when I went to dig that up I noticed Rion wasn't doing a tight setup, maybe because he wasn't scared of Faust doing a 6P+H OS because Faust's 6P has a crappy hurtbox at that range?

[tuka]

As you said Rion's setup wasn't tight so air dash j.S would never hit there. Crouching hitboxes get bigger while blocking so as long as Faust is stuck in CSE you can get it. That said he's still tiny and you need to time it well, but it definitely works. 

[xlolxlolx]

faust cant duck under low air dash j.s while blocking powered up cse since 1.1 increased the size of his hitbox while in crouch blockstun

rion gambled there and nage looked like he immediately switched to crouch/crouch block as soon as he blocked the last hit of powered up cse in that situation which rendered him out of blockstun and his hitbox shrunk to how it would normally be, plus he basically gave away his mixup with that whiff j.s to begin with so nage didnt have to worry about falling j.s/j.hs all in all rion blew himself up, now if he didnt do the cse and went for a dashing low air dash j.s/empty low off the sweep ciel he would've gotten the mixup but nage would most likely try to fuzzy jump out of that

[Zyed]

Fire paper bags dominate neutral and so are multiple other situations such as the meteor bags. If the ky is not experienced with each of these situations then you will most definitely lose free. Fire paper bag combined with oil is a free bomb and that is also godlike. If you can mobilize yourself around all the hit boxes flying everywhere then you can adapt to the dominance. But you have to be very consistent with your mobility and area control.   

Ky's biggest weakness in this match up is having to keep a very honest defense because good faust players will low profile vapor thrust during pressure many, many times. It's actually not that hard to block Faust but the player will definitely make it harder if the "Vapor Thrust Input" lingers in his brain. Let go of it in this match up completely. 

Another bad part of this match up is that Faust has anti airs up the ass and can poke you for free licks out of your air techs as well. Land safe and presumably not on top of him if you get caught in one of his air combos. 

Once hes in your pressure its smart to keep these in mind. Even though he has no DP, he can use 50 meter and even 25 meter Blitz and if thats not enough, also has access to invulnerability with 5D. If you delay a 6HS on his wake up you can actually get a "huge" punish on two of those options but that's a small tip, don't rely on it to win the match. Just mix up your meaty timings sometimes.