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StrawberryGL

Ky vs. Sin

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I used to main Sin and fought a Ky a lot. I've switched to Ky and now kind of sub Sin, so I think I got a pretty good idea on how this matchup goes on both sides. This will mostly contain stuff from a Ky player's perspective.


This matchup feels fairly even despite the damage difference, but now there's definitely a strong argument for this matchup being advantageous for Ky. 5.5-4.5? I could be playing the matchup wrong, but it feels like on Ky's side it's a lot of patience in neutral and running a gameplan with few mistakes.
 
On Sin's side it feels like a fairly frustrating neutral game without spamming beak driver, while Sin is just fishing for a handful of good confirms or slip ups on Ky's part to end him.
 
 
Sin's mixup and oki are quite lacking without sacrificing meter or damage, so I find it better to just read and/or react to what Sin will do and respond appropriately. Ky should not be getting opened up by Sin's meterless mixup, since most of it is fairly predictable or react-able. 5D and bull bash are fairly slow overheads, but j.D could definitely be a problem with its 18f startup. Double overhead with an air button into j.D shouldn't be a problem either, since there's a gap where Sin just suspends himself in the air, which is Ky's cue to block high. Sin has a very easy and safe time cranking up the RISC meter, which means despite his lackluster mixup, Ky should NOT be constantly sitting down and blocking. That will only make things better on Sin's side if he gets a confirm.
 
It's a different story if Sin either has 50 meter or knows the corner crossup setup. Voltic deign, which is 50 meter for around two seconds of "hold this" leads to a 50/50 between rising j.H or a low and will most likely take away most of your life if guessed wrong.
 
Oki on Sin's side is, again, lacking without sacrificing meter for voltic deign, or sacrificing damage by not using up most of the food gauge. If Sin eats, it's back to neutral on both sides. Not eating gives Sin the initiative, but I'm uncertain if it's worth it to just crank the risc bar or get one mixup through delayed leap into spaced low/low airdash j.(X).
 
Ending Sin's offense can be rather difficult, the ability to special cancel moves so long as he has calories inevitably leads to a situation where Ky can be ended off the next confirm. IBing, dead angles, and smart use of FD are your best bets.
 
 
Neutral wise, it seems like Ky has an easier time, but Sin definitely has his chances to beat Ky out or guess right. And again, because of the damage difference, those few chances could be all Sin really needs.
 
Ky's normals beat out most of Sin's. Matchup should mostly be decided on the ground because they both have pretty good anti airs(6Ps, Ky 2H) with decent rewards. It's undeniable that it's sword > flag when both players are just pressing buttons, but it doesn't mean Ky should be completely dominating the ground-game. Sin's beak driver, despite being "limited" by his food meter is one of Sin's best tools in this matchup, beating out pretty much all of Ky's normals in that range.
 
On Ky's side, Stun edge has to be used sparingly and at appropriate distances, or YRC'd to make it safe. Appropriate distance typically means almost fullscreen, to be completely safe from reaction slide or getting hit by neutral beak driver. Reaction slide/beak driver will just go through them without YRC to save Ky. Leap (optional YRC)>  j.6H > 2H into DAMAGE is also a very real threat. If the stun edges go through a grinder then it'll be fine (duh). Ky also has to be careful about throwing out delayed stun edges at the end of a blockstring too predictably.
 
I believe that a good ~30% of the matchup can be influenced by how well Ky can deal with beak driver, how willing he is to take risks and how often it pays off. If Ky can dissuade or shut down Sin from using beak driver through, then this matchup can become much more skewed.
 
Beak driver is fairly obnoxious to deal with in neutral for Ky. Since again, it beats out pretty much all of Ky's normals in its range. Stun dipper goes under it, so there's that. Beak Driver also usually leads to Sin typically doing slide > beak driver > slide, which really cranks up the RISC unless Ky FDs to get out. That blockstring also catches mashing if Sin slightly delays between the slides/beak drivers. If Sin is too far to slide after beak driver, the mash H followup can catch Ky jumping out, so watch out for that. Sin can also wait and do another beak driver to beat out Ky running up/airdashing in. Eating after max range beak driver is also fairly common, since the first reaction after a beak driver lands (for a lot of people) is to sit and block. However, beak driver > eat isn't safe no matter what the distance.
 
There's no particularly easy or guaranteed way for Ky to deal with beak driver. However, if the Ky is willing to commit he can dissuade Sin from using it. One fairly strong option is for Ky to do either a running forward jump or stun dipper right at the area where Sin would want to beak driver, which can vary depending on the player. Either right outside beak driver range (would hit if you continued running or FD brake) or right inside beak driver range are usually the spots. They're both rather risky options since Sin can easily punish if he just decides to do nothing - 6P into half of Ky's life for the forward jump or a decent chunk of Ky's meter for FDing, and just blocking > instant blocking stun dipper for a punish.
 
Bull bash shouldn't be an issue, if Ky is getting hit by bull bash on the ground in neutral then he has bigger things to worry about. Ky should just block or FD if he's in the air, since getting hit by bull bash in the air as Ky leads to pain, which is bad. Blitz/stun dipper beat it out pretty clean, assuming you're within distance for the latter. Sins mixing it up by doing bull bash YRC to counter blitz is also a possibility, so Kys can't get too overzealous with blitz. Max-ish range bull bash > eat is also fairly common, so Ky should watch out for that.
 
 
Ky's offense can be kept straightforward and simple against Sin, just keep in mind that he has a DP. Sin's DP, hawk baker, is kind of awful, but it's safe on block and leads to him reversing the momentum if he has food to follow it up with beak driver or slide. Reversal hawk baker pretty much negates Ky's 6H oki if Ky gets hit by it or even if Ky has to block. Ky has to bait it out and make it whiff to get the punish, respect the DP, or space 6H properly, which isn't too hard. His DP can also be used as a frame trap -

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2P Dash (2p/throw/Dp) / 2P delayed 2K - Really strong frame traps and pressure to keep the opponent guessing.

 

Most Sins shouldn't have a problem managing their calorie gauge, unless they go overboard with beak driver/slides in neutral or mess up a combo. If Sin is ever low on food for whatever reason, Ky should go in and try to stay in. Sin's normals are decent, but as a character he's rather reliant on his specials to both deal damage and heighten his presence in neutral. When Sin is in a low calorie situation, Ky should definitely capitalize on it. Low calorie means anywhere from zero (best case) to 3000 (hawk bawker > any special would play the hunger animation).
 
6H, 6K, j.D to reset pressure and keep Sin in blockstun is important in this situation. Ky always wants to force Sin to part with either as much meter or life as he can. Dead angles from the Sin's side should be expected when their food is low/almost gone. Ky can also force Sin into a low-calorie gauge situation by sacrificing (potentially a lot) of life and his burst. This can be accomplished by bursting close to the end of Sin's combo.
 
However, it's still important to keep in mind that Sin isn't helpless in this scenario. Since his normals are decent it's reasonable to assume the Sin player might decide he can can live without his specials and will just wait and fish to get a confirm into knockdown, where he can eat. With 50 meter and 1000 to 3000 calories, he can also do DP > slide and RC to eat.
 
 
The matchup is overall very neutral focused. It will revolve around whoever has the better ground neutral and more patience, along with how the players interact both countering and using beak driver. Both characters have rather lackluster mixup during blockstrings, but it's still not a good situation to be put into blockstun for either character. Sin's monstrous damage only gets scarier if Ky is too afraid to press buttons. Likewise, Ky can get good damage off his own gameplan through mixing up (tick)throws and staggered pressure to fish for counterhits.

Sort of updated it for Rev 1.03. These are my thoughts on the matchup, I probably didn't cover everything and may be wrong on some stuff. I hope this helps people out though.

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Thanks for the comprehensive advice, I need to add only one thing : Elk Hunt's frame advantage doesn't exactly change depending on distance : Sin's sliding animation detects an hitbox and then activates, meaning that it WILL be +2 99% of the time. Only ways to increase the advantage is to do it meaty (which can be thrown so nope) or to get it to hit at a very very specific distance (Elk Hunt "auto-triggers" after some travel time and you need to hit with the tip of the foot : it's completely impossible to do consistently). Even then, the additional  frame advantage is irrelevant for pressure since the opponent ends up beyond Sin's poking range. So long story short, Elk Hunt is +2, IB it when you can and Sin will be at frame disadvantage( -2) 99% of the time xD

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Slight things to add are that 

non charged Beak Driver xx Eat is not safe from any distance on block. Even with YRC they Sin will have to give up his food to stay safe. Ky's best option to punish is stun edge YRC because even if the Sin YRC's before eating you would have forced him to block with potentially low calories.

Greed sever goes over a lot of sin's normals and Stun Dipper goes under a lot of sin's moves. 

IB Elk Hunt really limits options. Ky is scarier with 50% tension in neutral, but Sin is scarier in the sense that it can just change the momentum of the game.

Stun dipper is the bane of my existence in this match-up. It just seems to beat a lot of Sin's pokes and options which basically makes sin have to focus on baiting it out when possible. Stun dipper beats out Elk hunt 9/10 times. 

J.Hs (9~ frames) is a better instant overhead than j.D for 50% meter conversion. Also Sin has many options for pressure outside of Elk Hunt ~ Beak Driver x N. However they're not unreactable and you just have to look out for:

Elk Hunt wait DP is really good for catching buttons, but has to be spaced properly.

2P Dash (2p/throw/Dp) / 2P delayed 2K - Really strong frame traps and pressure to keep the opponent guessing.

Whatever canceled into leaps. This seems really easy to AA but if spaced right Sin can stay out of range of 6P and beat out other AA normals with J.6Hs into big damage or change what leap he does to go over etc. 

 

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Stun dipper is the bane of my existence in this match-up. It just seems to beat a lot of Sin's pokes and options which basically makes sin have to focus on baiting it out when possible. Stun dipper beats out Elk hunt 9/10 times. 

Well I hope the Kys always do it with 50 meter : with IB, you can dash 2H o 6H and it will punish it cleanly, unless it's perfectly spaced, and we all know what a raw 2H or 6H in your face means. If it is perfectly spaced, f.S punishes it constantly on IB too, and 6H into R.T.L + following combo works most of the time (you're too far to get 623S to hit crit). Not saying it's a bad tool, but if a Ky player goes overboard with it, you know what to do !

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Got some footage from a Chicago monthly against a veteran Ky player

http://www.twitch.tv/gallopingghostarcade/v/30671042?t=02h22m51s

I had a bad drop or two, I know I could have killed him in the last round there. Maybe throwing out Voltic Dein against Ky to force out a Stun Dipper can be ok in clutch situations, one time I did VD in the corner and low blitzed the slide to force them to eat the ball (not in this match). 

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