Ky vs. Zato

[StrawberryGL]

Discussion thread for the Ky vs. Zato matchup.

 

Video Database

ENG: http://keeponrockin.meteor.com/?character1=kyk&character2=zat

JP:  http://horibuna.web.fc2.com/GGXrd/GGXrd_KY.html#ZT

 

Frame Data

Ky: http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=GGXRD/Ky_Kiske/Frame_Data

Zato: http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=GGXRD/Zato-1/Frame_Data

[Kizzercrate]

Matchup is dead even.  Plugging my own mixtape here vs one of the best in AKA at Combo Breaker: https://youtu.be/DWI8mixjS1g?t=4m3s

Ignoring all the dropped VTs, here's things you should know: 

-Block drill.  

-Zato 2S is a great button, but loses handily to f.S and Greed Sever.

-Don't be afraid of Drunkard Shade (reflect).  You can still use all the fireballs we have to control Zato (zoning Faith-style with full-screen Enhanced Stun Edges is especially good).

-Kill Eddie, but don't overextend yourself doing so.

-j.D cuts off a lot of Zato's aerial flight paths.  6P also beats a lot of his approaches clean.  2HS too, obviously.

-Speaking of flight, Zato j.K is really really good (even stuffs rising jump buttons and 2HS at certain angles), but all of Ky's buttons are amazing in the air against flight.

-Stun Edge YRC, as usual, is amazing in this matchup.  

-Zato's defensive options are pretty terrible.  You can pressure with 6HS all day for oki and do whatever you please.  Dead Angles can be low profiled all day long if you're ready for it (but it can also be used as an anti-air, i.e. if you're trying jump in or IAD mixups off of DC CSE YRC).

-I was willing to play neutral rather than holding my burst to get out of the unblockable (which is another very valid tactic), so I bursted rather early in corner pressure.

-Puddles can and should be killed.  Also, air S Stun Edge is really good at Eddie sniping once you get used to it.

[ehuangsan]

Yeah, this became much easier for Ky. Faith's trick of HS VT RC into air block out of the unblockable setup is even better here as you don't even need for the VT to hit. So the unblockable setup is worthless against Ky if he has 50%+ tension.

[lofo]

Far drill is really strong but I feel you really don't want to block it, since if he spaces it at the back of your sprite you can't poke the puddle before he summons far Nobiru, and if you airdash at him he can instead do close Nobiru. It's not airtight for him, but it makes us play his gameplan instead of ours, which is unfortunate. Instead, work very hard to not stand at a range where far drill hits. It's 18f startup so this is pretty doable, but it kind of sucks because that's Ky's natural range to poke with f.S and stun edge YRC. Still, better than giving him an opportunity to get started.

f.S (10f) does not beat Zato 2S (9f) if both are timed correctly at round start, or at even frame advantage. Instead I prefer 2P since it's very low risk and on CH combos to f.S slide for knockdown (easy to space since he's crouching). 6P is also a decent choice since it trades with 2S and beats f.S clean, though watch out as the trade puts you at f.drill range. It also as a lot of whiff if he elects to do something else though.

Drunkard shade is okay. It handles unpowered TK H j.stun edges and is decent against ground S stun edge. Watch out for trying to jump over the reflected fireball to hit him, since he can YRC it and airthrow you.

Ky 2S safely hits Eddie while he's hiding behind drills, which combined with powered stun edges beating full screen summons on reaction (for knockdown even!) can let Ky run a zoning strat until he gets something going.

I really like Ain's setup of meaty H charged stun edge, whiff split ciel, do frame traps and another H charged stun edge if they block everything. Zato's defensive buttons are kind of garbage so you can really go nuts as long as you're careful of abare 2S and of pushing yourself to f.drill range. Generally not a fan of going for overheads here since they are reactionable and if it doesn't pan out you lose momentum. Frame trapping and throwing is strong enough and forces him to make a difficult guess if he ever wants to get out.

[BladeOfJustice7]

With this template in mind:

Ky vs. Eddie

 

6-4 in favor of Eddie. If Ky gets caught, Ky loses. If Ky can avoid getting caught while attacking, Ky wins. For those people who play third strike, the matchup is like Dudley or Ken vs. Yun. The little Eddie is basically equivalent to Genei Jin.

 

Neutral

 

Ky must attack, either directly or indirectly. If he doesn't, then Eddie can start his very dangerous offense off the little Eddie so this must not be allowed. However, what makes this so difficult is that Ky must attack while avoiding the knockdown. If he gets knocked down, then Eddie can possibly end the round right there.

 

So Ky has to attack in a rather oblique manner to reduce the risk of knockdown, and constantly harass Eddie. He can do this by staying in lock step with Eddie at about 5S range and attacking with 2S, 5S, j.k, j. HS and TK SE. Basically you use these pokes to approach Eddie and dance around the 2S range. If he jumps, you can counter with 2HS, j. k or 2HS. If he steps within range of the 5S, the 5S, 2S chain is very helpful.  TK SE FRC is a good way to seize initiative from Eddie, as it is rather difficult for him to counter that. Staggered strings into stun dipper/SE also work as Eddie might look for the SE to try to IAD. If he does, the stun dipper will catch him.

 

Eddie will try to knock you down with drills and try to create space for himself to launch little Eddie. Once the little Eddie is out, Ky has to basically stay far back and try to kill the little Eddie with air SE or 2S, or trying to make Eddie block something with TK HSE.

 

Avoid getting knocked down as much as possible. Even eating a Noboru combo that permits an air tech is sometimes preferrable to getting knocked down. Yes, it is that bad.

 

Defense

 

If you are here, you have screwed up somewhere. If Eddie tries to go for high/low/command throw mixups, the best you can do is either DAA, burst or try to one frame jump out. However, if he goes for the unblockable projectile/drill setup, there isn't much you can really do about that and he will basically take most of your life away from that setup alone.

 

Some Eddie strings into little eddie are illegitimate.  For example, his 5S into summon loses instantly to 5K, however, clever Eddie players may try to go for the drill instead.

 

If you manage to escape and the little Eddie is out, then you have to try to kill it with 2S or jump back air SE.

 

If you get knocked down and sent into the puddle for the unblockable setup, you can actually reversal SVT out automatically. Even if Eddie does a safe jump, blocking the SVT will cause Ky to get sucked into the puddle, whereupon the game confuses itself by registering the block animation on Eddie which makes the puddle vanish, handing Ky the imitative.

 

Offense

 

Because getting knockdown is so bad, Ky must be aggressive but not overly aggressive. Best is to stay just inside 5HS range and go for katame patterns. Eddie's defense is not very good, so going for throw/counterhit setups are very good. 2S/5H stagger patterns are especially good IMO.

 

The analysis on the Faith matchup video in this thread should give you a good idea of what both sides are doing in the matchup. This matchup hasn't really changed, even since the XX days. Another good video to watch is the Machabo-Ogawa SBO finals from a few years back. Machabo has the right idea, but....Ogawa is frighteningly good. Someday I will do an analysis on that match vid.

 

 

My main issue with this matchup is dealing with Zato's air to ground normals upon his approach, causing me to either get CH when trying to 6p or 2hs him when he is getting close and even air grabs cause me to eat CH's in the air. Blocking it leads to blocking a drill which then ruins me. So I was wondering if anyone has any solutions for me when Zato is either recovering from a combo in the air or decides to fly over me. Trying to avoid katame situations against him while pressuring him.

Also trying to maintain pressure against him off oki without eating a 5p/2s after IB'ing CSE.

What can beat his f.s at the start of a round? I think I saw someone, Inoue (?), beat it with 6p.

 

Trying to revive these dead threads and wanting to level up too.

 

EDIT:

What are you guys thoughts, especially eh-sama's, on the way Machabo played Ogawa in Arc Revo finals, with Ky?

[Kizzercrate]

DISCLAIMER: I didn’t play +R or anything like that in any competitive capacity.  That said, read at your own risk.

I’m pretty sure the matchup now is dead even.  If it weren’t, then Kazunoko is absolutely nuts for picking Ky into MarlinPie’s Zato (from losers bracket, mind you, AND completely cold and out of nowhere as we haven’t seen his Ky resurface at any event since) at Final Round 18.  Keep in mind that Kazunoko also won this set 6-0.

So what’s the difference between +R and Xrd that evens it all out?  That’s a really good question, since Kazunoko basically played Street Fighter against MarlinPie and crushed out.  If you look at the set, it’s really the prototypical Ky/Zato matchup where both sides get opened up by silly stuff (up to and including air teching right into CH Nobiru).  But for the rest of us mortals, I believe the answer is:

Grinders.

Grinders make it so we can actually control the screen and force movement options without worrying about lolDrunkardShade turning our offense against us.  Guaranteed oki setups + Zato’s lack of defensive options + one of the few Dead Angles we can cleanly low profile = big advantage if we can get there.  

Re: Zato’s air-to-ground normals.  We’re really only talking about j.K here, which is absurdly good.  So good, in fact, that they had to run it back and give it to Leo too, lol.  Now, there’s a really weird hitbox interaction that even caught me by surprise at the tip of Ky 2HS that I ended up getting clean CHed by it.  95% of the time though, unless ZT gets in deep with it, 6P AND 2HS will put us at advantage either by clean CH or 2HS trade, which we still get combo from.  Furthermore, ZT j.K beats our rising j.K which is the go-to normal for air-to-air encounters; but ZT has no answer to air dash j.S if we’re at the same height he is.  And while we’re at it, ZT is absurdly hard to air throw because of flight screwing with timings.

If he’s flying directly over you, trying to 6P will either result in you whiffing horribly or getting crossed up and getting a 5P and dying anyway.  Best options are either VT since it covers so much headspace, Blitzing if you feel comfortable calling out the dropping j.K, or just backdash/run away in the direction of choice and reestablish spacing.

If ZT is mashing on your oki, either tighten your timing and set up a 2P>c.S frame trap for all the juicy CH damage, or call the 2S out with a GS (I generally look for that at all points of the matchup, to be completely honest).  

I’ll refresh my memory on Machaboo/Ogawa and edit or post later, but I do remember this one tidbit: if your opponent makes a huge mental mistake, you can take advantage of that moment and do something wild and take momentum.  Ogawa made a bad burst, and Machaboo Greed Severed and caught Ogawa crouching.