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huey253

"Engage" Dustloop Revamp Community Effort #3

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It's been nearly a month since the community effort to revamp Dustloop started. We have come such a long way in such a short period of time. The new matchup sections allow players from both characters to discuss matchups in the same thread. (Thanks shtkn) . Once again, please continue to use the previous two revamp threads to suggest potential changes to our current front page and matchup threads. The main topic for this week's discussion is....


Character Specific Forums

 

After revisiting the feedback we received initially, we noticed that there was a large amount of comments about the character specific forums. Finding relevant information and videos in these forums is very difficult. How would YOU change them??? Any and all ideas will be considered. (See Revamp #2 Thread)  Thank you for supporting Dustloop and believing in our community :)

Edited by huey253

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Yes! Finding combos in the threads can sometimes be time consuming, and even if they are all in the first post, the organization can be a bit lacking. Any ideas on restructuring the forums or the specific threads are welcome.

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Isn't that what the Wiki is for?  In fact, isn't it said word for word that it gathers all necessary information to begin playing the character without making you browse through many pages of forum threads?

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I don't think every combo deserves to be on the wiki (i.e. troll combos). However, that does lead into the question of why do we have character specific forums? What are they useful for? Why should we keep them? etc...

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I think that the wiki should be used for gathering all useful information that pertains to a character, from simple to complex. The new format with multiple pages per character wiki helps a lot with this. The forums are a good place to discuss what is on the wiki and what should be added to it.

I will say it is a million times easier to edit on the wiki than forums, you can easily see specific edit history, and any formatting on the forum gets blown up every update anyways.

Edited by VR-Raiden

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IMO: The wiki should fit BnBs and combo videos and there should be a thread in the character specific forum for "Combo discussion" where people post and discuss combos. IE- Wiki is where people go to get a basic idea of "what kind of combos does my character have?" and anything more indepth they can go to the forum to see what people are discussing.

Also, thinking it over I thought this would be kind of a good guideline. Keep in mind every character's community is different so said needs should be met based on the moderator's and player's discretion.

Link to character's Wiki Page
Link to Video Database
Combo Discussion
Gameplay Discussion and Questions
Video Discussion and Analysis (instead of the mega thread, people post videos they think are interesting and talk about the video)
Critique Thread

And then depending on if the moderators feel like minding it there could be other stuff like a General thread. Maybe there could go other resources like a Google Doc of people who play that character.

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I don't think every combo deserves to be on the wiki (i.e. troll combos). However, that does lead into the question of why do we have character specific forums? What are they useful for? Why should we keep them? etc...

Because question and answers, and generally trading tech with other players of your character.  Every single fighting game forum on the internet does this as well, see also SRK, TYM, Smashboards, I dunno about Dreamcancel I haven't been there in ages.

I think that the wiki should be used for gathering all useful information that pertains to a character, from simple to complex. The new format with multiple pages per character wiki helps a lot with this. The forums are a good place to discuss what is on the wiki and what should be added to it.

I will say it is a million times easier to edit on the wiki than forums, you can easily see specific edit history, and any formatting on the forum gets blown up every update anyways.

Yes, exactly.  I personally dread having to sift through mountains of pages to catch up with new tech, so anything valuable NEEDS to be on the wiki.  But at the same time removing the char specific forums would be an awful idea since not only do you rob players of an organized outlet to discuss their character, but you also ensure that inevitably the main discussion boards are going to be cluttered due to every character getting their own threads and posts.  Just look at the UNIEL/Arcana/VSav subforums.  It's functional sure but it's a mess.

I know some people have advocated Skype groups over character forums, but I personally despise that idea.  Knowledge should always be made public, especially in games like these where it's super important.

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My idea is like with the kind of a approach with the submit a tip like for a certain thread (using combos for example) if someone found a combo they can make a post as part of a google database (or anything else too keep like a list), later the mods can review the content and categorize it into the apporiate area making it easier to find the information for the forums for mods and to keep discussions purely on discussion and not posting combos you have to search 5 pages to find.

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the first thing anyone does when they try and learn a game is pick a character in training mode and see if they can do its combos.  they want to see if they are capable of doing the combos before they start fiending footage and other stuff. they go to a place like DL to look for combos to try and see long intimdating lists.  I think it'd help a lot to have some combos set aside at the top titled "Practice These First" or something.  I don't know if this is on purpose but every forum seems to just be like 4 threads that everyone is supposed to stick to and stay exactly on topic.  This shit sucks.  It's like no other forum I've ever seen.  If I go to a forum for another game and hit up the character specific stuff I see plenty of questions asked in thread form.  This is great because I can see threads that will ask similar questions that I have and find that info easier.  Let the forum be a forum.

Edited by huber

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I'm not sure how people have trouble finding relevant information within the forums when there are specific threads in each character forum tailored to compiling this information for that exact purpose. I do think some threads could use some redecoration as far as formatting goes, and for starters, I like the combo thread formatting @Urichinan proposed. 

Edited by Frost Monarch

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My favorite part about putting info on character forums was that time we changed forum software and all information archived using outbound links got lost.

We should probably move video archival to databases, move match use combos to wikis, etc. Slim down on the stickies and open up the forums to talking about shit and keep that information from being eaten by forums.

The new wiki format works for this, Polka's way of going about it is more or less fine.

Also the upkeep requirement by mods can be lessened enough so that you could redo the mod systems.

Edited by Anne

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the first thing anyone does when they try and learn a game is pick a character in training mode and see if they can do its combos.  they want to see if they are capable of doing the combos before they start fiending footage and other stuff. they go to a place like DL to look for combos to try and see long intimdating lists.  I think it'd help a lot to have some combos set aside at the top titled "Practice These First" or something.  I don't know if this is on purpose but every forum seems to just be like 4 threads that everyone is supposed to stick to and stay exactly on topic.  This shit sucks.  It's like no other forum I've ever seen.  If I go to a forum for another game and hit up the character specific stuff I see plenty of questions asked in thread form.  This is great because I can see threads that will ask similar questions that I have and find that info easier.  Let the forum be a forum.

I absolutely agree with this.  We have a wiki, if you want DL to be an "information resource" then just close the forum entirely.  Let the users talk their shit out, everyone's experience is different.

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Hey, not really concerned here (and didn't post for a while) but I was searching for a solution about this very problem a few months ago and here are my conclusions if it can help. Sorry if it sounds impossible to do due to web developpement being involved but that's what I thought could help. The problem you have here is not only related to how to organize the forums but the user experience of writing content for others and accessing/sharing this very content on the forum.

/ Delete this post if you feel it's irrelevant /

First you need to realize wikis are shit. Wikis are shit because the technology powering them is shit. In the age of mobile browsing, most wikis, including Dustloop aren't even responsive for mobile navigation and they aren't used as a ressource when going to a tournament. Wanna check for a frame data before a match? Good luck reading a giant non responsive table on your phone, you'd better have it in a file text. Also wikis designs are crap and the editor to write into the wiki isn't engaging at all. In the DL wiki you can write LATIN characters with a click but you need to copy/paste a link to an image to get an arrow. How dumb is that? And the large editor with small font size and font style makes it look like an old man thing from the past. Not engaging at all for newcomers and younger players. But on the other hand wikis can be fantastic and you still need them because you got revisions, it's editable by everyone, people can add info, others can correct it, you can come back if someone vandalizes it.

So why are people posting everything in the forum and visitors aren't going to the wiki? Well as we saw wikis aren't user friendly, you need to open a new tab to go to them and most people are lazy. Oh and maybe you don't even know the wiki exists. And since the forums are so much more user friendly you don't feel like moving to somewhere else, it's easier to ask than search and the forum works on mobile not the wiki so bleh. But as you all realized, forums are shit to organize information, link to information, update informations.

So what you need here is not a way to organize information in the forum, it's first to make people want to participate in the wiki and then a way to take information from the wiki and post it to the forum. By posting it, you show that this wiki entry can be edited by anyone and if they try to edit it, you welcome them with a nice interface where they will feel at home and all it took them to get there was a click. One of the solutions I found is to be able to embed wiki entries on the forum and design them as cards. To ease it, you add shortcodes to the forum. Example: I want Sol Xrd combos I type [XRD:SOL:COMBOS] and boom, the sol combos from the wiki are on the forum.

This way the data is always fresh as it comes from the wiki, you don't need giant first posts as everyone can get any data with just a code. And even if you want giant first posts, you don't even have to edit them in the long run. I know it sounds rather complicated to implement (I didn't do it as my own wiki is dying and I have no forum) but if you manage to do it a lot of your problems are solved. You can then come back to the first goal of a forum which is discussing about the game. And instead of telling people to go to a thread to get an information when you're are bored to answer the same question for the X time, you can just simply type a short code to deliver it to them without even changing your browser tab.

Now you need a webdesigner and developpers. Good luck. ^^

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I love the ideas and concerns everyone has mentioned so far. Having our community as a whole editing the wiki for the most relevant information is great, but I think hampered by how separate the wiki is from the forums. 

 

A formatting guideline for both forums and wiki pages could be a simple and effective fix there. Have a stickied combo discussion thread for a character always start with a link to that characters combo section in the wiki. Stickied gameplay discussion thread? Have the link to the characters overview right at the top of the first post. 

As far as these kinds of threads go, they are limited in amount there are, and new ones only occur with the release of new characters or games, so it'll be easy to keep up with as well. 

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I'm not sure how people have trouble finding relevant information within the forums when there are specific threads in each character forum tailored to compiling this information for that exact purpose. I do think some threads could use some redecoration as far as formatting goes, and for starters, I like the combo thread formatting @Urichinan proposed. 

I also posted my full format here.

I have quite a few ideas on how combo thread/wiki posts can be restructured. For starters, with the implementation drop-down boxes in the video threads, I think something along the lines of this should be possible:

Drop box 1= starter, drop box 2= enemy state (Stand, crouch, air, etc.), drop box 3= screen position

Pick what you want to find, hit "Go!", and it'll generate the tables for whatever it is you're looking for. No more scrolling through giant walls of combos.

Also I think it's crucial that we start filling combo sections with combo theory and breakdowns of combo parts along with the lists.

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Implementing the drop down search for combos would be pretty cool. The another option would be to section off combos so they appear in the navigation (maybe do both?). Also, everything broke in the character subforums due to the update. The plus side is that the new forum is very responsive to simply copy pasting things from a word processor, so like I suggested in the Staff Forum it would be pretty easy to make templates in Google Docs and have people copypasta and fill them out.

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A point that's worth mentioning is that, at least in my experience, searching for information in a hundred threads is easier than in a single 100-post thread. Not too long ago, I wanted to read a post about Faust's options at the round start that I've seen in the general thread, but to find it, I had to read every page of it, starting from the last one, as I don't remember any keywords that might've helped me search for it. Now, if that post had its own thread titled "Faust at round start" or whatever, I assume it would've saved me (and other people who might want to read it) a lot of time that could be better spent elsewhere.

Now, how do we encourage people to break down the discussion into multiple threads? The first idea I got was to close down the general discussion threads altogether, but in a world where people can make threads at the drop of a hat, they're just going to make (or migrate to) another one. I feel that the key is in broadening the scope of the community to the entire subforum rather than the general thread. Basically, people shouldn't feel that they're only allowed to discuss things in a single thread. Now, how do you do that is a whole different problem, and it might be related to the whole mod discussion from a while ago.

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A point that's worth mentioning is that, at least in my experience, searching for information in a hundred threads is easier than in a single 100-post thread. Not too long ago, I wanted to read a post about Faust's options at the round start that I've seen in the general thread, but to find it, I had to read every page of it, starting from the last one, as I don't remember any keywords that might've helped me search for it. Now, if that post had its own thread titled "Faust at round start" or whatever, I assume it would've saved me (and other people who might want to read it) a lot of time that could be better spent elsewhere.

A mod could easily convert the posts on a general thread into a separate and relevant thread.

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A point that's worth mentioning is that, at least in my experience, searching for information in a hundred threads is easier than in a single 100-post thread. Not too long ago, I wanted to read a post about Faust's options at the round start that I've seen in the general thread, but to find it, I had to read every page of it, starting from the last one, as I don't remember any keywords that might've helped me search for it. Now, if that post had its own thread titled "Faust at round start" or whatever, I assume it would've saved me (and other people who might want to read it) a lot of time that could be better spent elsewhere.

Now, how do we encourage people to break down the discussion into multiple threads? The first idea I got was to close down the general discussion threads altogether, but in a world where people can make threads at the drop of a hat, they're just going to make (or migrate to) another one. I feel that the key is in broadening the scope of the community to the entire subforum rather than the general thread. Basically, people shouldn't feel that they're only allowed to discuss things in a single thread. Now, how do you do that is a whole different problem, and it might be related to the whole mod discussion from a while ago.

yes this exactly is what I was trying to say.  this place doesn't even look like a forum it's really strange.  

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A mod could easily convert the posts on a general thread into a separate and relevant thread.

I mean, why would they? If that post is not off-topic for that thread (and almost nothing is in a general discussion thread), there is no reason for the mod to take action. At least not now.

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I mean, why would they? If that post is not off-topic for that thread (and almost nothing is in a general discussion thread), there is no reason for the mod to take action. At least not now.

They were just talking about how hard it is to find information when it's buried in 50 pages of general discussion, and bringing it into its own thread so that searching/the thread title is relevant.

i.e. Faust round start "Hey mods this was a useful discussion, let's move it to a new thread so people can find it later and we can focus the discussion"

Also, rather than bothering the mods with stuff like this players could also take some initiative in starting their own thread responding to something in a general then just reply with the link to the new thread.

Edited by silverhydra

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I made something a few days ago which was in the back of my mind for structuring character boards threads and what content you may want in the board/threads. This is just a rough put together I had and wasn't sure if it could be useful/helpful or some point of discussion as I haven't seen this thread active as much as the others. I guess what I've put as [Pin] are core threads all boards may need want.

Key:

- Thread

+ Thread contents broken down

= Guess some notes (whatever you want to go inside each section)

NOTE: Wasn't sure if Q&As could go inside a beginner/gameplay guide or General. You're pick really.

 

Character Board:

- [Pin] Gameplay/Beginner Guide
 + What to Learn First
 + Basics
= Could be paired with What to Learn First you get the idea.
 + Further Details

- [Pin] Gameplay/General Discussion and Q&As
 + Notes/News/Latest info (Ver. specific info/changes)
 + Character Bio
  + Breakdown/contents of the thread
 + Gameplay Summary
  + Move List
  + Tips/Useful links

- [Pin] Combo/Mix Up Discussion
 + Notes/Latest Info
 + Notation Guide
 + CMVs
  + Combos
 + Mix Up/Pressure???
= Wasn't sure if people would want such discussion in the same thread?
 
- [Pin] Video and Analysis
 + Notes/Info/Rules
 + Breakdown/contents 
 + CMVs (again?)
= May be show CMVs here also as they can be discussed?
  + Vs. complied
  + list of discussed videos???
= A section for quick linking to posts that offer their analysis for a particular match/CMV?

- [Community] Video + Critique
 + Notes/Info (Outlines/Rules)
= Unpinned thread for western players to get some peer analysis on how they are playing?

- [Community] Introductory and Netplay (PSN/XBL)
 + Ease in people with welcome
= May be explain some ground rules I dunno. You're choice.
  + point what's the best things to check and Explain the resouces available to them.
= We have a beginner guide, wiki etc.
 + Netplay/Player info
= List of players who play this character e.g (Username, PSN/XBL, may be times available/region)

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From twitter - 

@MashThat5a - 1) too many redundant threads 2) over emphasis on combos 3) don't we have a wiki for a lot of this

@Pssych - Which is why General and Gameplay / Video Analysis / Odd and Ends should be the only threads needed ...

@huey253 a big issue is that trying to find specific information in huge discussion threads really difficult

@Pssych If something really important is said in a thread,you could always get a mod to link it in the 1st post

 

Edited by huey253

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I made something a few days ago which was in the back of my mind for structuring character boards threads and what content you may want in the board/threads. This is just a rough put together I had and wasn't sure if it could be useful/helpful or some point of discussion as I haven't seen this thread active as much as the others. I guess what I've put as [Pin] are core threads all boards may need want.

[ . . . ]

Character Board:

- [Pin] Gameplay/Beginner Guide
 + What to Learn First
 + Basics
= Could be paired with What to Learn First you get the idea.
 + Further Details

- [Pin] Gameplay/General Discussion and Q&As
 + Notes/News/Latest info (Ver. specific info/changes)
 + Character Bio
  + Breakdown/contents of the thread
 + Gameplay Summary
  + Move List
  + Tips/Useful links

[ . . . ]
 
- [Pin] Video and Analysis
 + Notes/Info/Rules
 + Breakdown/contents 
 + CMVs (again?)
= May be show CMVs here also as they can be discussed?
  + Vs. complied
  + list of discussed videos???
= A section for quick linking to posts that offer their analysis for a particular match/CMV?

Some feedback.

Gameplay/Beginner Guide
- I'm a big fan of this idea. The old Soul Calibur 2 boards used to have stickied "READ ME FIRST" primer threads in every character subforum and they were excellent for beginners, although by 2015 standards they might be considered to have been a little bare. I think we can improve upon this format by fleshing these threads out just a little bit more.
- The key to these threads should be brevity: keep everything short, simple, and easy to read.
- Could be something like: Brief introduction to the character -> notation guide -> quick rundown of commonly used moves -> short list of BnBs from common starters, including less optimal but practical variations for beginners -> general strategy -> maybe some simple character specific stuff like Faust FDC? -> index of links to relevant threads, posts, wiki sections, useful videos, etc..

Gameplay/General Discussion and Q&As
- IMO there should be separate threads for general discussion and Q&A.
- Q&A thread should make beginners feel that they're welcome to ask anything, even the most basic of questions.

Video and Analysis
- I think it works best when there are separate threads for posting links to videos and discussion.
- Basically people who are only interested in finding links to recent videos can go straight to the latest posts of the video thread and get what they need. Discussion and link-posting won't drown each other out.
- The OP should probably contain an index of links to important match vids as well as important non-match videos like tutorials, tech demonstrations, and combo vids, 
 

From twitter - 

@MashThat5a - 1) too many redundant threads 2) over emphasis on combos 3) don't we have a wiki for a lot of this

@Pssych - Which is why General and Gameplay / Video Analysis / Odd and Ends should be the only threads needed ...

@huey253 a big issue is that trying to find specific information in huge discussion threads really difficult

@Pssych If something really important is said in a thread,you could always get a mod to link it in the 1st post

 

Yeah lots of people have been saying this lately and I agree. It feels like posters are afraid to make new threads so I think we need to start encouraging people to make separate threads for information that gets buried in the megathreads.

For example, on Tekken Zaibatsu there's usually a "How to EWGF" thread in the subforums for Mishima characters. Questions about j.D FDC were pretty frequent in the I-no general discussion thread and it's kind of an important technique, so I think there should be a separate thread for teaching people what this thing is and how to do it. An "Odds and Ends" thread would be great for miscellaneous tech and info that's important and interesting but probably not worth making dedicated threads for.
 

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