Leo vs Sin

[DaRealZil]

Discuss the Leo vs Sin Matchup here.

Leo Frame Data: http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=GGXRD/Leo_Whitefang/Frame_Data

Sin Frame Data: http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=GGXRD/Sin_Kiske/Frame_Data

[Zephyrion22]

Taking some relevant data from old threads to serve as a base for discussion

Sin's Side

 Most of the matchup specifics were dealt with in the Leo matchup thread, so this is just an addendum that mostly deals with Leo's offense.

 

 Neutral is clearly for us. First, we need to approach his projectiles a bit differently than the rest of the cast : 46S is 2 hits and can't be low profiled, and it's really hard to  Beak driver your way through, 46H is a lot slower though and Beak driver can catch its startup in some cases (doesn't negate the projectile itself if Leo isn't hit, but if it does CH him, the projectile disappears). When you KNOW they are going for the projectile, do K leap or IAD >(j.S)> j6HS to get a clean and deadly punish : both of the projectiles have slow recovery so this will work more often than you think, and force him to YRC them constantly to avoid this. For the rest Leo is overall slower and has less range, so don't hesitate to harass him with our wide arrays of pokes

 

On offense you will need to be a bit  more careful than usual : His DP being a flashkick doesn't go well with our telegraphed overheads. Be sure to focus on frame traps and various baits with backdashes, YRC and call-outs to gain the respect you need before ever attempting high/low  mixups against Leo. His jump startup being 5f means he can't really fuzzy jump out though, so it's easieur to keep him pinned to the ground

 

 Defense isn't actually that bad for Sin, but you'll need to have knowledge of how Leo's mixups works, and how to punish/deal with his stuff. Here are a few notes that may help you

 -6H and 236H both have punishable and/or throwable startups. Those moves are annoying to deal with so stop them whenever you can to get breathing room, or big combos if you have the meter to RC it

-236S is actually slightly negative on block (-1) , so don't let them reset pressure with it too often.  Rekkas are a mindgame which is to your advantage if you defend correctly :  IB the first rekka, then wait a lil bit and press 6+K+H or 4+K+H

 6+ K+H: If he just does the first rekka and attempts a reset, you'll punish it with 5K : he can only block or backdash at this point. If he attempts the second one, you'll either IB or FD the second one depending on the timing you did it : you can punish the second rekka with 2P unless he cancels it by the third one on IB, or keep your FD up to negate Leo's mixup potential

4+K+H : Gives FD after the IB if he does the first rekka only, and throws him between the two rekkas if he attempts the second one. With some training you can actually easily implement this  in real matches !

  -When IBed, his 6K is only + 1 on block, and his 5P is one frame slower than our 2P, so it will trade/clash with his in worst case scenarios, and almost always wins in actual matches since Leo often ends up too far after 6K, and ends up being forced to commit to 5K or dash 2P, and both lose to IB 2P quite badly. He can beat this with delayed rekkas and 236H, in which case you'll have to use the aforementioned solutions

  - FD is just really good against Leo, especially when you're Sin : It forces him to modify his pressure resets or take risks by using rekkas or 236H. Even then, he has trouble keeping up because of the poor momentum his forward dash carries. Couple that with the huge recovery he has on most of his normals and you'll see a few occasions to get at least a simple whiff punish or two

-Whenever Leo goes for Brynhildr stance after anything that isn't a throw, Backdash  is a great option : if you have the timing for it, it will beat every option he has in Brynhildr. The only things he can do is call it out by dashing forward before pressing buttons with a perfect timing (you can still YRC on reaction to block the following mixup, or be trolltastic and attempt another backdash.).

Even without the YRC, he will have to be fast at hitconfirming, as the timing of his dash will dictate if he either hits Sin during the recovery of the backdash (airborne) of after (grounded). Mix it with mash 2P and other defensive options once you conditioned him to call your backdash out.  He can also use the projectile super to call out your backdash while preventing you from YRCing it but it's often  a huge waste of meter for the reward it gives, and is rarely used  this way except in the corner and/or in a round-ending situation.

 

Going to put up some tips I got in this match-up.

 

6p- Start of the round 6p beats out most of Leo's buttons except for 2d.

5k- Trades with Far S and either beats 2d or causes it to whiff.

If you get a CH on these then cancel into Elk Hunt for the knockdown and play your game.

 

Be cautious when you see Leo whiff 5s and respect the 5Hs that's coming because you'll get CH A lot. Its best to just wait it out and see if 5hs whiffs and use that to punish/take your turn.

 

When you're pressuring with 5hs/Elk Hunt be wary of using 2k due to Leo's 5k having low inv. Instead use 5k/5s/2p

 

 

[Zephyrion22]

Leo's side

Start of round

Sin has a minor advantage.

Leo's important moves:

• 5K: beats Sin's 2S clean, trades with f.S in Sin's favor
• f.S: beats Sin's 5K, loses to f.S and 2S
• 2D: beats 5K and 2S
• Jump forward j.K: beats f.S, Sin recovers in time to block after 5K and 2S.

 

 

Sin's f.S seems dominant here at first, but Leo's jump forward j.K leads to a pretty decent combo (j.K j.H 5K 2H rekkas = 165 damage). If you can enforce the strength of your jump here, Sin can be scared to hit buttons. 2S becomes more appealing to him then, because it doesn't get him hit if you jump. That's when using 5K becomes a good idea, because you get a full combo if you beat 2S with 5K.

 

If f.S whiffs, you can punish with 5H on whiff and get a knockdown or big damage. This is one reason why Sin players will prefer 2S in footsie, because it actually beats your 5H clean by low profiling. At most ranges, you can't whiff punish 2S with Leo 5H, so you still should trust on 2D and 5K to beat 2S.

 

A lot of Sin's pressure revolves around 2S > 236K (Elk Hunt) > 236H ( > 236K > 236H loops. 236K > 236H is always a true blockstring, but there is a gap to Eisen Sturm or Blitz Shield between the 236H and followup 236K. In order to maintain charge, you have to perform the instant block while crouching, so your inputs might look like 1,2,1,8H. This is a fairly small gap and you can get hit for doing it, but the reward is big and this is a string that most Sin players absolutely rely on, similar to Leo's f.s > 5H/6K. You can actually react to the 236K after instant blocking so that you're not just uppercutting on a guess, as well. You can also interrupt his 2S > 236K, but you probably won't have charge for when you block 2S.

 

Bull Bash

Of special note is Sin's 214S, also known as Bull Bash. This is a (very slow) overhead attack that hits in a huge arc around Sin. It hits 2/3rds of the screen away, and on hit can lead to half life, even midscreen. The hitbox is disjointed, so even trying to react to it with Eisen Sturm or 632146H will just lead to Sin clashing with you. Overall, you really just need to learn to respect the crap out of Bull Bash. It's Sin's #1 scrubkiller move (think Gunflame), and learning how to respect and properly disrespect it is a big part of the matchup. If you hit whiff normals anywhere on screen, Sin can Bull Bash you to death. If you try to throw full screen fireballs, he might Bull Bash you. Be ready to YRC your fireball on reaction, even before it comes out, because it's better to waste meter than eat a ton of damage.

 

The best answer I have currently is to Blitz Shield it on reaction. From max range, you can get a running 6H rekkas. From up closer, you can punish with IAD j.K j.S(1) j.H 5K cl.S 5H rekkas. From point blank-ish range, you can punish with jump forward delayed j.K j.H 5K cl.S 5H rekkas. Of course, they have the option to counter-Blitz if they have meter, so a lot of the time a dashing 2D, dashing 5D, or 2S 2H rekkas will be all you're confident in going for. There's a lot of intricacies to the Blitz Shield metagame that I'm not going into here, but it's important to be aware that they exist. Remember, you're not trying to win from the long range game. You're only trying to get close enough to run Leo's blender on them.

 

Oki notes

Sin has a ridiculously long wakeup period after rekkas and throws. For example, after throw, you can bt.dash forward three times and still whiff a bt.K because he's not up yet. You actually can get a RRC if you try to YRC a H meaty fireball because he's still on the ground, so be wary.

 

Safe jump oki is effective on Sin, but of course you need to delay your jump forever. You can actually do throw > 22 > hold up forward to safe jump, but you need to delay a frame or two to actually force him to block.

 

Hawk Baker

Worth mentioning is Sin's meterless reversal, Hawk Baker, 623S. While it has very little range, Hawk Baker is very annoying for Leo to deal with because Sin can cancel it into safe moves for no Tension (only cost is his Calorie Gauge). The strongest way to bait and punish Hawk Baker is to backdash to make Hawk Baker whiff. The problem with stuff like Leo's meaty 6K is that it requires you to dash towards the opponent, which normally means that you can't cancel from your forward dash into your backdash. If you're doing grounded meaties, then you're on some level putting yourself into a guessing game as to whether he'll wakeup throw or wakeup DP, because his DP can be made safer with the Calorie Gauge. The best way to break this pattern is to use what I call the "Millia shuffle," aka FD break backdash. Most commonly used by Millia because her dash momentum and backdash are absurd, this simply involves hitting 4PK > 4 to cancel your forward dash into Faultless Defense, which is then cancelled into a backdash. This is also a much safer way to bait moves like Volcanic Viper because if Sol wakeup throws/OS 5K, he just whiffs.

 

Of course, safe jump oki has none of these problems with wakeup throw when timed properly. In order to avoid the above problem with Hawk Baker, I recommend buffering a backdash OS off the safe jump to make Hawk Baker whiff. If Sin backdashes, he'll get out, but that's a very ballsy backdash because you can also just autopilot 5P 5K to punish his backdash.

 

If you actually do get Hawk Baker to whiff, you get to go to town because Sin is rightly in CH recovery, and the recovery is very long. Dash up 2H > 6H > 236H > 66 5K cl.s (jc) j.K (jc) j.K j.H j.236H is optimal punish meterless from what I know, but something like 6H 5K cl.S 5H rekkas does 177, so just make sure that it hurts him. Spending meter for corner push is fine. 6[H] bt.S 63146S is definitely the best starter if you're spending meter, but as always those combos are pretty spacing and character specific. 6[H] 632146S 2366H 5K cl.S  (jc) j.K (jc) j.K j.H j.236H = 261 Damage

 

Defense

Sin's offense is like Ky's with an even slower Greed Sever but a safe Stun Dipper. Block low until he runs low on food. React high to j.D, leap stuff, Bull Bash, and 5D. Sin does absurd damage rivaling even Leo, so while Sin's mixup is actually very predictable and weak if you can react high, Sin can steal rounds off one hit. Be warned.