Ky - Oki basics for new players?

[Endearment]

Hi Team Ky,

While there is a wealth of amazing material on Dustloop, I have found a lot of it to be slightly too advanced for my beginner ass. I am a tournament-going VF5 and USF4 player who is just now trying out GGXrd. Long story short, I love it but I am BAD.

I watch Machaboo and Ain videos all the time, and pay attention to their oki setups; they are amazing but often layers and layers deep. I was hoping a few advanced Kys on this forums might help newbies like myself with a set of, say, 3-5 decent oki setups to focus on and get comfortable with.

Currently, after knockdown and edge, I use meaty 6HS, empty jump throw, and dashing 2K pressure...and that's pretty much it. What I would LOVE to see is a few options along with follow up block strings or hit confirm options. Even if it's just a few bullet points (doesn't have to be an essay). Whatever you'd like to contribute, it would be much appreciated.

Please help my corner game! Thanks fellas.

[klaww]

You've got a good start if you're doing those things.  One that you should add to your repertoire is meaty 5K. If you find they start blitzing or otherwise wising up to your oki options, you can put a j.D on em, and that's fine as oki on it's own, and if you YRC it you can do other stuff like overheads and whatnot.  

Also, try comboing into 2D > Split Ciel (236D), so you can put a CSE through a grinder, and get the really good fireball oki.  you can get a good mixup or two in there, and even more if you YRC it.

[Zouf]

2D > 236D > 236HS everytime (you can) as oki. It the best oki Ky can get.

6HS is ok as meaty, but since the buff of reversals, it's kinda dangerous. 

Basic mixup options would be 2D > 236D > 236HS >> empty jump 5K or 2D > 236D >236HS >> jump > airdash at the last moment > j.S > j.HS.

It's Ky's basic 50/50 okizeme. Works better with YRC on 236HS and in corner.

Also, you should not be doing empty jump throws. It just doesn't work in this game, as throws are 0f, opponent with decent reflexes will mash HS and throw you instead. You will always lose. 6HS > dash throw works much better

 

[Endearment]

Thank you guys. Very helpful responses. As long as I have you guys here -- would you mind sharing some useful block strings? Are block strings as important as, say, USF4? And what can I do with them in terms of setups? 

I know now these are kind of broad questions and I truly appreciate the answers. 

[Zouf]

2K/5K > close S > 5HS > 236S

2K/5K > c.S > f.S > 236S

2K/5K > c.S > f.S > 2D > 236S

Note that Ky doesn't have many "true" blockstrings. He's a more frametrap oriented character.

Frametraps are :

6K > 2K

6K > c.S

c.S > 6K

6HS > anything

2D > delay > 236K

2D > delay > 236S > YRC

I'm probably forgetting some, but this is mostly it. 

NB : it is worthy to note that 2D has many active frames and is cancellable until very late in the move. You can make great use of it. Also, it's fast.

[Endearment]

Wonderful! Thanks Zouf. Will try to put this knowledge to some use tonight. Coming from a SF / VF background, I'm still not used to the profound sense of momentum in GGXrd. It's like if I lose control for a single moment, the relentless onslaught begins and I have trouble getting that momentum back. These will (hopefully) let me keep that control for longer periods of time.

Anyways, thanks for the responses, much appreciated.

[StrawberryGL]

I thought i'd mention that ending blockstrings with Stun Edge isn't always a good idea in some matchups like vs. Sol because he can low profile it with GV. You can also try ending strings with c.S/2D > TK Stun Edge, or Split Ciel.

[Zouf]

If you are REALLY new to the franchise, i'd also suggest you grind and learn about the game system, as it is VERY different than USF4, let alone VF.

Instant block, Faultless Defense, Air dash, high jump, Dust, movements, meter management etc..... 

To me, it is equally important to know very well how the game works than to how your character works.

 

[Endearment]

That was actually another question I had -- what do you recommend to be the best way of grinding? Online I am playing guys with 2-8k games under their belts and I rarely hold my own. All of the techniques you mention I've been trying to add slowly but I still feel like I have a tenuous grasp on them at best. 

Would you you recommend I continue grinding out games? Training room sessions? A mix?

[ehuangsan]

Lose a lot, then go through replays and figure out why you are getting hit.

[StrawberryGL]

Play a ton, watch your own replays for mistakes/things you can improve, watch replays of high level Kys, read guides or strategies written up by other Kys, try to recreate situations you have trouble with in games and find answers to them in training mode, learn preferred combos (as optimal as you can get while still having a high success rate) and grind them until you don't drop them, play even more.

 

This is all easier said than done of course, but it can't hurt to try! If you can put a video of your matches in the critique thread I could try to help in that way.

[Endearment]

 

Basic mixup options would be 2D > 236D > 236HS >> empty jump 5K or 2D > 236D >236HS >> jump > airdash at the last moment > j.S > j.HS.

It's Ky's basic 50/50 okizeme. Works better with YRC on 236HS and in corner.

 

Hi Zouf (or anyone who'd like to chime in). With your help (and a fair amount of grinding), I'm definitely getting better -- I've even had some genuine semi-coherent corner mixups and frame traps. Still a long way to go. Was hoping you could maybe expand a bit on the above quote.

I'm still having a hard time getting opponents to do anything but crouch block (which tends to shut down so much of my offense). I can weave Greed Sever into my block strings but I've heard this is bad (works sometimes online but I don't want to get into bad habits). Can you advise how I can get people to stop crouch blocking? Are there other mixup options? How would you deal with an opponent that did that?

Thanks as always!

[Flick]

Hi Zouf (or anyone who'd like to chime in). With your help (and a fair amount of grinding), I'm definitely getting better -- I've even had some genuine semi-coherent corner mixups and frame traps. Still a long way to go. Was hoping you could maybe expand a bit on the above quote.

I'm still having a hard time getting opponents to do anything but crouch block (which tends to shut down so much of my offense). I can weave Greed Sever into my block strings but I've heard this is bad (works sometimes online but I don't want to get into bad habits). Can you advise how I can get people to stop crouch blocking? Are there other mixup options? How would you deal with an opponent that did that?

Thanks as always!

I don't know if you've known it or not,but Ky is not a mixup-reliant character, so it's better to not trying to play him that way. He focus on pressuring the opponent to make him want to get out, and then you punish the way he get out using your strong tools. So if your opponent just sit the crouch block, let him do it, just use your pressure-reset move to crank his RISC. When his RISC is flashing, even a simple throw RC combo can take away 60-70% of his life - that's what you do to stop him from crouch-blocking happy. And when he starts to do silly things to get out, that's when the fun start. You can frame trap him when he try to mash, 2H or air throw when he try to jump airdash out of your pressure.
What i want to say is, don't just focus on how to opening your opponent directly, doing so with Ky can get you frustrated soon. Try to stay calm and waiting for his mistake, in addition you can give him some rope so he can hang himself easier

[Zouf]

What Flick said.

If you are REALLY tired of your opponent blocking, just go for dash + throw when you feel they won't react.

Or Dust, they work fine. Greed Sever is meh. Slow and obvious, it's a good combo tool, other than that i wouldn't use it if you can't RC behind.

That being said, i use it way too often, so i'll take that advice to myself first 

[Poultrygeist]

Greed Saber goes over low moves doesn't it?  Like wouldn't you be able to go over gunflame with it?

[Wutai_Shinobi]

I try to go over gun flame sometimes, but the success rate isn't great.

 

for mixing in over heads, I've been practicing from HCSE, jump in, air dash at lowest possible, then j.H, 5K, c.S, 6K, 236D, (micro dash) 2D, repeat.

 

The j.H can be left out for an impossible(?) to react to 50/50, but know it only combos if you dash in from the lowest allowed height (lower than an IAD allows). Don't know how common this set plays, but it's blown me up a lot from one of the guys I play with lol.

[Tong]

The 50/50 is strong, you're not supposed to react to block a proper setup.

[Flick]

the airdash/empty jump low mixup supposed to be airdash jS>jH/ empty jump 5K. airdash jH is way too slow and actually very reactable

 

[Endearment]

Hi Guys.

What are my best options when 2HS lands, ground, air, CH?

I feel like what often happens is I hit confirm, and then attempt to chase them into the air -- but they recover too quickly for me to really do anything. I'm comfortable with 2HS in corner combo loops and Throw > RC > 2HS > Vaport Thrust stuff; I'm mainly having trouble capitalizing when I land at midscreen as part of footsies or anti-air spacing. Any comments appreciated, thanks as always.

[StrawberryGL]

For grounded hits you can use [2HS > 2D] for a simple knockdown, maybe RC if you can close the round.

On anti air hits, [2HS (JC) > j.S (JC) > j.S > j.HS > HVT] for damage, [2HS > HVT] for knockdown depending on character weight and how high up you hit them. You can also just wait for them to tech out of 2HS and then jump up and air throw them if you aren't confident you can continue the combo or realized you hit them too late.

CH: On CH 2HS launches from the ground, so you can treat it the same as an anti air hit

[Zouf]

anti air 2HS  > greed sever > stuff is a good way to confirm 2HS and let you some time to think what you will do next (because GS animation is long)

 

 

 

 

 

[McFang]

Hello everyone!

I'm in a similar situation as op but haven't played anything at a serious level due to the scene not being that big in scandinavia. I started out with Leo since he seemed pretty straightforward and sat down with a friend who is experienced with Potemkin. After playing for some hours I couldn't really understand why I was looking forward to SFV when this game exists, damn what a fun fighter! Anyways, Leo felt very high risk/reward with a really bad neutral game so I thought that the learning for me would be best with Ky.

I think I'll just write what I'm practicing with and maybe ask a question or two.

First hitconfirm:

Since I'm new I got a rather long hitconfirm to give me more time to react.
I use 5P, 5P, 5K, c.S (I cut it down one 5P if I'm not dashing)
If it connects I go for the 6K, 236D (not sure what I can do with it after)
or 2D, 236K and then follow up with a Meaty 6HS (also here I'm not sure what to follow up with, I'm fine with the microdash)
Should I shorten the confirm to make sure it doesn't become a bad habit?
What are the benefits from starting out with a 2K in a string, is it frame advantage?

Regarding the blockstrings that you wrote Zouf, can you do them with an extra 5/2p?

The anti-air I've been doing is the classic 6P, 5S, jC, jK, jS, jC, jS, jH, 236HS. Is there a more practical way of doing it? Also how do you go about if you use a 2HS instead?

I would like a basic corner Oki setup which I guess involves a 236D > 236HS

Also a basic RC combo from maybe a throw and a 236K to start out with.

One thing I'm really puzzled about is how to connect with attacks from a air-dash properly, the normal jump HS is the only one where I've been able to follow up on a regular basis. The time window seems so much shorter than SF and I guess this will be the thing that will need some grinding.

I guess what I need is a practical hitconfirm, blockstring, oki, corner oki, Air-to-Air, Ground-to-Air and some RC stuff to play around with. Do you just add the frametraps into strings? The defence is what I'm focusing on but practicing to hit back a little while doing so is always more fun!

Thanks everyone!



 

[StrawberryGL]

Welcome, Ky is definitely a good character to learn the game on! I'll try to help with what I can.

Hitconfirming with 5P is fine but I wouldn't recommend it over 2P for the purpose you're using it for. 2P is slightly safer on whiff than 5P and 2P is +2 on block for better tick throws and pressure (5A is +1).

That's a good confirm. You can follow it up with a microdash > 2D link for a knockdown + DC CSE oki, or use 236236P in the corner for a pretty big combo.

2D > 236K will work on some characters but will have some problems on others (chipp, millia, pot, etc.). They'll fall strangely after the first hit and then be OTG'd on the second, basically they'll be popped off the ground and you'll lose your knockdown. I recommend 2D > 236D for midscreen DC CSE oki most of the time. If you want a Stun Dipper knockdown you can push them out a long way with your normals and then combo 236K when they're far enough. ([5K > c.S > 5HS > 236K > 236K)])

I'd say the important thing is that you're actually getting the full confirm into knockdown, so having an extra move to be sure you're confirming is fine.

Using 2K to start a string is good because it's Ky's fastest normal that hits low and it has good gatling options. It is +0 (neutral) on block compared to 5P which is +1 and 2P which is +2. You'll see players like Ain love to poke with 2K. It's the safest choice but it also prorates badly (70%) so the following combo will be a little worse than a combo started by 2P/5K. I recommend using 2K to start blockstrings from pokes, and using 2P to start blockstrings from oki like CSE.

That anti-air combo is fine, anti-airing with 2HS is exactly the same only you jump cancel right off of 2HS into j.S. So it'd look like [2HS (jc) > j.S (jc) > j.S > j.HS > 623HS]

Off of a 236D knockdown in the corner (from 2D or corner VT/Ciel loop): [236HS (YRC) > jump > late airdash > j.S > j.HS] is the overhead mixup, [236HS (YRC) > empty jump > 5K] is the low mixup.

Basic throw RC combo into knockdown: [Throw (RC) > 214K > 2HS > 623HS], Basic 236K RC combo into knockdown: [236K (RC) > c.S > 2HS > 623HS]

I guess what I need is a practical hitconfirm, blockstring, oki, corner oki, Air-to-Air, Ground-to-Air and some RC stuff to play around with

Practical hitconfirm: [2P > 2K > c.S > 2D > 236D]. You can get really creative with blockstrings, there's too much to go over here but you can try simple things like pushing them out with normals > stun edge, jump canceling c.S or 2D into air stun edge, jump canceling normals into falling j.S/j.HS, jump canceling into j.D and shooting a stun edge through it, using 6K to reset pressure, and frame trapping with 2P > c.S. Oki can be applied with 6HS, CSE, DC CSE, or 5K. Of of a close knockdown > CSE you can YRC it for an airdash mixup as explained above. Corner oki is relatively the same only they're more vulnerable to airdash mixups off of DC CSE. Air to air situations are usually resolved with j.K. A confirm would look like [j.K > j.S > j.S > j.HS > 623HS], Ground to air situations are resolved with 2HS and 6P, maybe 5P in an emergency.

Hopefully that helps! You can go over the wiki page for more information. It's been slowly updating so check back every now and then. http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=GGXRD/Ky_Kiske

[McFang]

Strawberry, my hero, thanks alot! From your tips and advice I could understand why Ain sometimes goes with the 2K and other times 2P in the beginning of his strings.

That's a good confirm. You can follow it up with a microdash > 2D link for a knockdown + DC CSE oki, or use 236236P in the corner for a pretty big combo.

Do I launch the 236236P after 2D? Also is the microdash because of some characters not getting hit by just doing the 2D after 236D? 

If you want a Stun Dipper knockdown you can push them out a long way with your normals and then combo 236K when they're far enough. 

([5K > c.S > 5HS > 236K > 236K)])

I only manage to get the first hit from the second 236K, is it a strict timing to it?

Regarding frame traps, what are good situations to pull them out in GGXrd?
 

My basic flowchart, feel free to comment on anything I need to change or is plain out wrong. I think it's basic enought right? Thought it might be a good idea if someone else is interested in Ky and just needs something to start out with. I really appreciate the tips Strawberry, it is so hard getting good starter points to fighting games like these. I do however still struggle with confirms from jump ins and airdashes! Is there any tricks in getting better at those? 

Basic flowchart for KY
Poking
2K > c.S > 6K > 236D
^ on block you an throw a SE
^ on hit [ 66 2D ]
2K > c.S > 5HS
^ on block [ SE or mixup with 2D or 236K or 623K ]
^ on hit [ 2D > 236HS or 2D > 236D ]
2K > c.S > f.S
^ on hit while crouching [ 3HS > 214K > 623HS ]
^ on hit while standing [ SE or 2S > 236K ]
^ on block [ SE or do a mixup with 236K or 623K ]
2K > 2S > 2D
^ on hit [ 236HS ]
^ on block [ jc or 236D ] or mixup with 214K

Hitconfirming
[ 2P > 2K > c.S ]              
On Block
f.S > SE
6K - resetting pressure -
6K > 236D ( > SE )
2D > SE or 2D (jc)
(jc) > j.S or j.H
(jc) > j.D > j.SE
On Hit
5HS > 236K > Oki or [ RC > c.S > 2HS > 623HS ]
(5HS) > 6K > 236D > 66 2D > 236HS
f.S > 3HS > 214K > 623HS      [note: on crouching opponent]

Throw
RC > 214K > 2HS > 623HS
RC > 214K > 2HS (jc) > j.K > j.S (jc) > j.S > j.HS > 623HS
[ Corner ] RC > c.S > 2HS(1) > 214K > 623HS > 2HS(2) > 623HS > c.S > 236D

Oki
6HS
^ on block [ gg > hitconfirming ]
^ on block [ 66 FD > Throw ]
^ on hit [ (c.S) > f.S > 3HS > 214K > 623HS ] or [ (c.S > f.S > 3HS > 214K > HJ > j.S > j.HS > 623HS ]
HSE       ( > RC > Airdash )
DC HSE ( > RC > Airdash )
5K

Corner Options
[ 2P > 2K > c.S ] or [ 6HS > c.S ]
^ 6K > 236D > 66 2D >  [ 236HS ] or [ 236236P > 66 2HS > 623HS > c.S > 236D ]
[ 5D ]
c.S > 6P > 5HS > 214K > c.S > 236D


Punish
5HS > 6K > 236D (> f.S) > 236K
5HS > 2D > 236236P > 66 c.S > 2HS(1) > 214K > 623HS
[ corner ] 5HS > 6K > 236D > 236236P > 5HS > 236D
 

Anti-Air
6P > c.S (jc) > j.K > j.S (jc) > j.S > j.HS > 623HS
2HS (jc) > j.S (jc) > j.S > j.HS > 623HS

Air-to-Air
j.K > j.S (jc) > j.S > j.HS > 623HS

Launcher
D > j.HS > j.HS > j.S > j.P > j.S (jc) > j.S > j.HS > 623HS

[StrawberryGL]

I only manage to get the first hit from the second 236K, is it a strict timing to it?

Sorry, that was a typo! You can only do one 236K. So it's: [5K > c.S > 5HS > 236K]. Or really anything that pushes them far away before Stun Dipper. Keep in mind that 5K can be replaced by any of his light normals such as 2P/2K/5P, it's just my preferred default for notation.

Regarding frame traps, what are good situations to pull them out in GGXrd?

 Frame trap if your opponent is pushing buttons during your blockstrings. For example: [6HS > 2P > (slight delay) c.S] If the other player was mashing 2P or something (usually to interrupt tick throws) you'll catch them with a CH c.S, which leads to 6HS, which leads to lots of meterless damage. You could use something like 2K in place of c.S in situations as well, as it's faster and easier to use.

[ 2P > 2K > c.S ] > 6K > 236D > 236236P    This one seems to be working midscreen too?

It does work midscreen, you just don't get any oki for it compared to in the corner because of the immense blowback.

5K    What are good follow-ups to this one?

Just something like 5K > c.S / 5K > 2S is fine.