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tofu_bones

[CT] Arakune vs. Hakumen

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When playing BB for the first time I was getting crushed on by this local gg player running his Hakuman all over my face, to which a friend of mine responds: "Hakuman is a problem for people that have never played this game before, and only for people that have never played this game before" I now agree with this statement. I just thought we should be well rounded and have a thread open for the discussion of how to keep Hakuman locked out of the game like the champs we are. All hail our bug-ridden overlord. :yaaay:

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While I'm still pretty noobish, I agree that Hakumen was a total monster when I first started. Now, I've only had the game for a few days, but he is probably the easiest character for me to beat with my Arakune (which still sucks and is incredibly awkward to watch replays of). That being said, I don't really know what I do to beat him other than stay out of his range.

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staying out of his range is all you really have to do, just remember that you absolutely control the tempo of this fight and there is little to nothing he can do about it. double jump/back jump/get in the air at the beginning of the fight to get a cloud out, mix up your ways of getting to the ground, as far as I can tell he has no way to stop you from doing this, you simply out range his aerial advances. follow this up with moving him into a corner (obviously the methods of doing this will change depending on which cloud you summon) basically with moving behind your bell bugs, spitting at the ground and the occasional mix up poke from a j.D. If Hakuman decides to try and get over your bell bug, standing C him and get a nice air combo, that is of course if he has avoided all the advances upon him that result in a curse, chances are he has not. Eventually Hakuman will find himself forced into a corner, because that's where we put him, and in the immortal words of Admiral Ackbar... "IT'S A TRAP!"

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As a Hakumen player, I can say that clouds do two things, restrict movement and give Haku something to swat at besides you. Just keep in mind that even a cursed Haku is far from defenseless, he can still swat bugs shot at him, even in the air, and a single hit from him means big damage and uncurse. Haku can deal with projectile pressure better than actual physical pressure, so taking a risk on mixups and high-low games and crossups would actually be better than just spitting clouds alone would.

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The attack that I see Haku using most often to swat at my projectiles is a crouching upward motion with his sword (not sure the actual input command), and the recovery on that seems to take foooorrreeevvveeerrr (exaggeration). If spaced correctly, doesn't Haku just have to eat a j.D on recovery? And with a j.D comes a re-curse, and re-curses mean more bugs to deal with. It just seems to me that a Haku player has to really work hard for a victory against Arakune. I don't know if it's correct to equate it to Arakune's match-up with Nu V-13, but I feel that against Haku I am at an extreme advantage. Maybe I need to find a new batch of Haku's to play against?

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Tofu_bones, the attack you're talking about is Hakumen's 2C. And yes, if he tries to swat the cloud you do get a free j.D.

Hakumen is at a pretty bad disadvantage in this matchup. His C moves (all of which destroy projectiles) makes for a pretty poor answer against arakune's bugs. If he tries to C the Dbug at any point, he's stuck in that animation for so long (due to the guard point effect) that you can hit him with anything from any length of the screen. Hakumen's D counters also are lacking as answers to Arakune's bugs.

The primary reason for this is because he can go through a bug for free with it, but not ones that hit in succession. If he D's an A bug, for example, a B bug can come out immediately and hit him out of the recovery of the counter, for a counter hit into combo.

Hakumens primary strength in this fight, if that while he is NOT marked, it's much more difficult for Arakune to do anything. And given that he can destroy clouds with minimal risk, it can be somewhat difficult to get a mark on him. The problem here is that if you do have a cloud out, he has to figure out some way of destroying it because he's not mobile enough to simply avoid them. Once he has it in his head to destroy the cloud, it leaves him vulnerable to a j.D.

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That's assuming he uses 2C to get rid of it though, I'd have to check what all C moves get rid of projectiles, but I think Tsubaki (j214C) is one of them.

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That's assuming he uses 2C to get rid of it though, I'd have to check what all C moves get rid of projectiles, but I think Tsubaki (j214C) is one of them.

All of Hakumen's C moves destroy projectiles. And that's NOT assuming 2C only. My point is that if he is focusing on destroying a cloud, which he has to at some point, then there is no way for Hakumen to do this safely. At which point, you can get in or J.D. None of Hakumen (or anyones!) moves are safe on wiff.

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Hahaha. . . Ah yes The old swat the fly lure. . . I do love fighting Hakumen Its the only character I get to fight and use my clouds for while not inflicting curses. . . Most Hakumen, and please take no offense, are slow learners At least, the ones Ive run into Theyve continulously broken the clouds I put out giving me a massive gap to charge unto But do be careful, if the distance is large enough, or the player has learned, the lure may become faulty and harmful to you. . .So. . .hehe. . .time to switch up again

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Regarding the clouds though, j2C can get rid of c-cloud early on, jC can dispel a lot, b-cloud is hard to deal with on crossup. A-cloud can be dealt with by either 5C or 3C. A lot can be stuffed by Zantetsu since it's a wide 2 hit swing, and although you said he's vulnerable on wiff, the goal of most would be to hit the projectile and Arakune at the same time, which means Haku will be avoiding jumps and watching his spacing. Once he is cursed, he'd avoid unnecessary movement and jumps or close in as fast as possible to get that uncurse hit, sometimes using 623A.

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Bwagahahaa I found out today, thanks to Blade himself, that not all Hakumen are idiots If youre able to, pressure yourself unto defense the moment the match begins and slowly chip away Hakumen is made of pressure, youll have to wait for openings to make your move

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i basically just try to punish arakune during landing recovery and sometimes get up close when i think it's safe to. yep. also if you do the overhead cloud thing, don't do the dive towards the ground thing afterwards, cuz my 2C will be eating you and the cloud.

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Hahaha Exactly as qwerty put it I was rather idiotic to underestimate the reach of Hakumen's C attacks Believe me folks, they will get you xD Though, if youre going to use the cloud, it might be safe to 2C dive away, depending on the original distance of you and Haku

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Something I learned from my last matchup w/Shinsua Bell bug can be destroyed by Haku's j2C, so be careful throwing that out, also this is a good match to bait and do the fake-out teleports as Haku is slow on anticipating feints since he's used to dealing with real attacks. Arakune's air drop moves give Haku surprising crossup pressure, but don't use it without expecting 2C to come out eventually.

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Yup, hakumen's Attacks are BIIIIIG unfortunately, trying to pressure arakune is like holding a wet bar of soap: hes gonna slip out eventually. Arakune, in this matchup, is pretty much doing what he does best: running away, curse, then go for broke. unlike some other matchups, though (*Cough*Noel*cough*) Arakune has the option of rushing down once Hakumen is cursed, but he cant just do it willy-nilly. Once hakumen is cursed, i personally will just use my A,B and C bugs to harrass him from a distance, using my teleports and teleport feints on the ground to zone him, buy time, help me set up traps, etc. I personally wont be jumping in the air too crazily at this time: it only takes one of Hakumens huge swings to hurt you bad, and Arakune isnt exactly super manuverable in the air without his J.6A,B or C, all of which Hakumen can, if he guesses right, counter. Once hakumen is blocking,ill Use crossup dives, the midscreen unblockable and Teleport feint into high/low/throw to break his guard,recurse, and repeat. As long as Arakune is cautious and tricky with his bug use in his zoning, he pretty much controls the pace of this matchup. @Blade: i guess id wanna get a match or two against ya at some point, maybe itll help me flesh out this matchup a little better by understanding it from Haku's perspective.

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I was fighting our local hakumen tonight and we were mostly splitting. What the match came down to is Hakumen's jumping C. Basically with Arakune I feel like I have no viable anti air. If I try and jump out after blocking Hakumen can IAD j.C and push me back to the ground. It was literally a game where Hakumen is jumping at me and I'm struggling to get ground. I was trying to time standing C but most of the time he would either stuff it, go over it or simply block it. What should I be doing against someone who is just jumping? I felt like my dmg options were severely limited.

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5C should work just fine, you just need to work on your timing. Other options you can try out are 2B (surprisingly good anti-air), backdash, double jump > cloud.

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A good hakumen can on reaction counter 5C, I thought he was just outpredicting me, then I started mixing up the timing and he still got me every time. He then admitted he was reacting to it.

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I was fighting our local hakumen tonight and we were mostly splitting. What the match came down to is Hakumen's jumping C. Basically with Arakune I feel like I have no viable anti air.

If I try and jump out after blocking Hakumen can IAD j.C and push me back to the ground. It was literally a game where Hakumen is jumping at me and I'm struggling to get ground. I was trying to time standing C but most of the time he would either stuff it, go over it or simply block it. What should I be doing against someone who is just jumping? I felt like my dmg options were severely limited.

Jump higher than he can. Then, j664B into mix-up consisting of 2A,5C,6C, or 6A followed by 6C loop. :eng101:

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hakumens anti air also CRUSHES j664B, and he can on reaction counter/jab 6a, and even if he doesn't you best mixup jump cancelling 6a and going to 5d, because he can counter between 6a and 5d. He can also counter/jab between 2a's, and between 2a and 2b. This mixup is incredibly dangerous at several points.

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sorry for the double post but I think this warrents more than an edit more hakumen options: You can't anti air hakumen, if he IAD's and J.c's it's safe jumped since 5C is so slow, so you can only do 5C as a predictionary anti air against this tactic. BUT even worse hakumen can IAD and do nothing to get in virtually for free, once he IAD you have several options, anti air, he can on reaction counter, j.a, he can block(which should be doing if he doesn't see the anti air coming out), or jump up throw, which can easily be teched. I've tried other things such as 2.b and 5.b, neither of these seem to work particularly well, they either get blocked, beaten by j.c, or j.c still lands safely. Hakumens anti cloud options: floats above his head cloud: IMO the worst cloud against hakumen, he CAN 2.C this, but if he just throws it out it'll get punished. The problem is hakumen has no problem turtling under this cloud and then reacting to what you do. If you try to spit for pressure he can either on reaction instant air dash and j.c for punish, or (if he's feeling cowardly) just counter it. If you try and bell bug he can IAD j.c for punish, or if his reaction is a bit slow get a free nonpunishable 2.C to kill the cloud and get some meter. Trying to pressure him from above is pretty tough because his 2.c is a decent anti air(and kills the cloud), and if he can't 2.c your aerials I almost guarantee he can 6A it(his 6A is godly). homing cloud: This one is pretty nice, the biggest problem with this one is that it moves predictably and at the same speed towards the opponent which means he gets an easy counter on it(counter is completely safe if it counters a projectile even if it doesn't hit the opposing player). He can also jump C it in such a way the the only way to punish is with a bird(6a/b/c) that goes over the sword and into hakumens face(which is somewhat hard to do on reaction to his 6C as you have to place yourself at the right height at the right time). spit and anti air actually do not work here, anti air either clashes with the still active sword and does nothing, or he will land immediately after the active frames and be able to block. Spit just gets cut by the sword and then he lands and is able to block the second hit, he can always land and block j.d even if it's out before the active frames of j.c end. shield cloud: this cloud is probably the best against hakumen, he has no realy safe ways to destroy it. Here are a few of his options. He can try and 6C it in such a way that you will also get hit/be forced to block, this is the best option iif arakune is low on life. But if he 6C's you can spit, sword will cut the first hit of spit and the cloud(and you most likely) but the spits second hit will get him and curse him. He can safe jump IAD 6C to destroy it, which is still an irritating option, but a lot of the time the extra active frames will get him anti aired(and jump up and j.a him is much better because even if he blocks it CAN force a cloud hit). A crazier option(that deserves mad style points if he does it) is command dash into the cloud and counter it, that one's pretty risky for obvious reasons. Once hakumen is cursed! Now things start to look pretty sweet, but hakumen still has some decent options, mainly in counter. Once he gets cursed he will likely/should turtle up, your best bet here is to use bird stabs and dives to try and cross him up while he has to block bugs. You can try and blockstring him, but that's very risky, as I have mentioned before arakune's blockstrings are full of holes(literally, there is no place in his block strings that don't have a hole), which means hakumen can almost guarantee counters against. Unless you manage to perfectly fill the holes with bugs so that he does not exit block stun he can watch for a bug and counter in such a way that even if you bait it by stopping your string the bug/a cloud will set off his counter anyways and wreck your curse, wreck your momentum and deal some damage to you. hakumens anti air: hakumens anti air is sweet, it crushes arakune's dives, it crushes arakune's downward angled normals, and it is very hard to bait and punish. It recovers too quickly for fake dash in j.d or j.a/b to punish it consistently, and arakune is too slow in the air to double jump and punish(and j.c will often clash or even lose unless you are way up above them in which case nothing else works so he has no reason to forward punch). Arakune's block strings: more notes on this, jump cancelling 6A does NOT bait the counter that can go in between 6A and 5D against the hakumen I play against. He watches for the jump and if you jump he does not counter. He also does not seem to counter when I decide to do nothing after 6A, I'm not sure how he knows not to counter but he has never countered when i try to bait it with this(and if I try and do 6A->2A he jabs me out every time). I'm going to see if I can figure out anything else I can do in here to bait counter(maybe teleports?). Overall I think hakumen is a lot mroe solid in this matchup than people give him credit for, although th elevel of play required and matchup/frame data knowledge to pull most of those off is very high. Even with all that it's going to be an uphill battle for hakumen. anyway tell me what you think!

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sorry for the double post but I think this warrents more than an edit

more hakumen options: You can't anti air hakumen, if he IAD's and J.c's it's safe jumped since 5C is so slow, so you can only do 5C as a predictionary anti air against this tactic. BUT even worse hakumen can IAD and do nothing to get in virtually for free, once he IAD you have several options, anti air, he can on reaction counter, j.a, he can block(which should be doing if he doesn't see the anti air coming out), or jump up throw, which can easily be teched. I've tried other things such as 2.b and 5.b, neither of these seem to work particularly well, they either get blocked, beaten by j.c, or j.c still lands safely.

Hakumens anti cloud options:

floats above his head cloud: IMO the worst cloud against hakumen, he CAN 2.C this, but if he just throws it out it'll get punished. The problem is hakumen has no problem turtling under this cloud and then reacting to what you do. If you try to spit for pressure he can either on reaction instant air dash and j.c for punish, or (if he's feeling cowardly) just counter it. If you try and bell bug he can IAD j.c for punish, or if his reaction is a bit slow get a free nonpunishable 2.C to kill the cloud and get some meter. Trying to pressure him from above is pretty tough because his 2.c is a decent anti air(and kills the cloud), and if he can't 2.c your aerials I almost guarantee he can 6A it(his 6A is godly).

homing cloud: This one is pretty nice, the biggest problem with this one is that it moves predictably and at the same speed towards the opponent which means he gets an easy counter on it(counter is completely safe if it counters a projectile even if it doesn't hit the opposing player). He can also jump C it in such a way the the only way to punish is with a bird(6a/b/c) that goes over the sword and into hakumens face(which is somewhat hard to do on reaction to his 6C as you have to place yourself at the right height at the right time). spit and anti air actually do not work here, anti air either clashes with the still active sword and does nothing, or he will land immediately after the active frames and be able to block. Spit just gets cut by the sword and then he lands and is able to block the second hit, he can always land and block j.d even if it's out before the active frames of j.c end.

shield cloud: this cloud is probably the best against hakumen, he has no realy safe ways to destroy it. Here are a few of his options. He can try and 6C it in such a way that you will also get hit/be forced to block, this is the best option iif arakune is low on life. But if he 6C's you can spit, sword will cut the first hit of spit and the cloud(and you most likely) but the spits second hit will get him and curse him. He can safe jump IAD 6C to destroy it, which is still an irritating option, but a lot of the time the extra active frames will get him anti aired(and jump up and j.a him is much better because even if he blocks it CAN force a cloud hit). A crazier option(that deserves mad style points if he does it) is command dash into the cloud and counter it, that one's pretty risky for obvious reasons.

Once hakumen is cursed!

Now things start to look pretty sweet, but hakumen still has some decent options, mainly in counter. Once he gets cursed he will likely/should turtle up, your best bet here is to use bird stabs and dives to try and cross him up while he has to block bugs. You can try and blockstring him, but that's very risky, as I have mentioned before arakune's blockstrings are full of holes(literally, there is no place in his block strings that don't have a hole), which means hakumen can almost guarantee counters against. Unless you manage to perfectly fill the holes with bugs so that he does not exit block stun he can watch for a bug and counter in such a way that even if you bait it by stopping your string the bug/a cloud will set off his counter anyways and wreck your curse, wreck your momentum and deal some damage to you.

hakumens anti air:

hakumens anti air is sweet, it crushes arakune's dives, it crushes arakune's downward angled normals, and it is very hard to bait and punish. It recovers too quickly for fake dash in j.d or j.a/b to punish it consistently, and arakune is too slow in the air to double jump and punish(and j.c will often clash or even lose unless you are way up above them in which case nothing else works so he has no reason to forward punch).

Arakune's block strings:

more notes on this, jump cancelling 6A does NOT bait the counter that can go in between 6A and 5D against the hakumen I play against. He watches for the jump and if you jump he does not counter. He also does not seem to counter when I decide to do nothing after 6A, I'm not sure how he knows not to counter but he has never countered when i try to bait it with this(and if I try and do 6A->2A he jabs me out every time). I'm going to see if I can figure out anything else I can do in here to bait counter(maybe teleports?).

Overall I think hakumen is a lot mroe solid in this matchup than people give him credit for, although th elevel of play required and matchup/frame data knowledge to pull most of those off is very high. Even with all that it's going to be an uphill battle for hakumen.

anyway tell me what you think!

Awesome, awesome advice. You just upped my arakune game. (though did you mean to...?) again thank you though. a lot of those things i never thought about :psyduck:

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Anything that makes america better is alright in my book! I really do hope it helps, a lot of this stuff requires a ton of match experience or freakish reaction time(my hakumen opponent has both :(). The sooner more people figure this stuff out though, the sooner me and other arakune's can figure out ways around it! Most of the credit should go to the local hakumen who shall remain nameless because for WHATEVER reason he doesn't want people to know who he is. Like I said in that other thread, he generally beats me, and it's not through lack of me trying. I'll give this a few days for other arakune's to pick at and then i'll post it in the hakumen thread if it hasn't been ripped apart by other, better arakune's.

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I should mention that Bursting is also one of the methods Haku can get uncursed. That, and you'd be surprised how many Arakune's are too obsorbed in their bug curse combos that they forget Haku can still use Yukikaze to disrupt you or close the gap, about all I've seen to escape it is corner warp but that actually may leave an open hole in your bug pressure.

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