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mAc Chaos

Hakumen VS Carl

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Discuss the Carl VS Hakumen matchup here. Both sides are encouraged to participate.

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-Carl can use Ada to grab Hakumen for free with Anima if he tries to use his drive.
-Carl can use Ada to hit Hakumen out of his counter super and astral now.
-Carl can vivace Hakumen's air approach pretty easy due to Hakumen's long air dash

-Hakumen does tons of damage, can kill Carl incredibly easily.
-Hakumen can use 3C to stuff Vivace B and get a CH, even if you whiff 2A I believe.
-Hakumen can mash super and possibly drives through unblockable setups to counter Carl.
-Hakumen can create black holes by cutting many of Ada's moves, Volante(fireball), Fuoco(drill), and 8D(clap). This can screw up Carl's approach or just plain knock him down and allow you to get the drop on him.

I think that's all I've got, I play against a great Hakumen fairly often, but I can't say I know the matchup too well yet, being new to Carl. Hope I helped contribute!

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What do you mean he can hit Hakumen out of Yukikaze? It's invincible all the way to the end.

Also what do you mean by grabbing him "for free" with Anima. Assuming the Hakumen is competent, let's say he uses the drive to counter one of Carl's moves. Where does Anima come into play then?

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Oh... I worded that really badly, I meant that if Ada touches Yukikaze, Carl can jump and move out of the way. If she touches astral, Hakumen just gets hit iirc. In the case of anima on drive, Carl is already countered, Anima won't work out, but a good bait is to force Hakumen to block, then jump and have Ada walking in with Anima. If they try to counter with drive, they are grabbed and you get a big combo.

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I'm gonna test that astral thing, though, because i may be remembering wrong... I just remember hitting maybe it was Noel out of her counter astral with Ada's 6D


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Doll attacks do not activate Akumetsu anymore, it's been that way since CP1.0


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Doll attacks do not activate Akumetsu anymore, it's been that way since CP1.0


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Ah, thanks for the clarification! It used to be exploitable in a glitch for every game before that or something, so it just doesn't trigger it anymore I guess.

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Doll Attacks counted as physical ones before so that's why they activated Akumetsu, it wasn't really a glitch just an hilarious oversight. Also, I want to address some of the things you've been saying. 

-Carl can use Ada to grab Hakumen for free with Anima if he tries to use his drive.
-Carl can use Ada to hit Hakumen out of his counter super and astral now.
-Carl can vivace Hakumen's air approach pretty easy due to Hakumen's long air dash

-Hakumen does tons of damage, can kill Carl incredibly easily.
-Hakumen can use 3C to stuff Vivace B and get a CH, even if you whiff 2A I believe.
-Hakumen can mash super and possibly drives through unblockable setups to counter Carl.
-Hakumen can create black holes by cutting many of Ada's moves, Volante(fireball), Fuoco(drill), and 8D(clap). This can screw up Carl's approach or just plain knock him down and allow you to get the drop on him.

I think that's all I've got, I play against a great Hakumen fairly often, but I can't say I know the matchup too well yet, being new to Carl. Hope I helped contribute!

1. So what if Hakumen doesn't decide to use his drive?

2. You already explained this, but Yukikaze is full invincible, even during the recovery. So there's no way to punish it.

3. Vivace is the dash move right? What purpose does it serve? Are you trying to say it can be use to dodge whatever he uses as a jump in?

4. Which unblockables are you referring to specifically?

 

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1. If the Hakumen doesn't use their drive, Carl can always just use Ada for long blockstrings, as usual. I was just pointing out the utility there over just grabbing him, as an Anima counter will get way more damage and can be safer if you jump back barrier or crossup with vivace. (I should really elaborate more, sorry bout that.)
2. Oh, yeah. If Ada triggers Yukikaze, super jumping out and using allegretto to float is his option to avoid it. No punish as far as I can tell, just meant that you can get away. (ooh, I see, I said you could hit him out of Yukikaze. My bad, guess that's not a thing :P)
3. Vivace is the command dash, 236A/B, A is projectile invul, so probably good against agito? I think it's called. 236B is head and mid invul and you can use it to get out when someone jumps in or tries to overhead you. It moves a longer distance, too, so it can make you safe just from that. Lows and projectiles beat it, though, so Carl has to be careful. Both are great for crossups, which is another way to get the Anima grab. other than catching a Hakumen being reckless with his drives.
4. The unblockables are Carl's standard high + low such as [airdash j.AxN > j.2C > j.A > j.B + 3D], [2Ax2 > 2B > 6B + 2D], [6C + 3D], [j.C 4D] etc. which all hit high and low at the same time. I'm 99% sure Hakumen can always beat the first one cleanly with super as it resets and yukikaze is like 1 frame right? if so the others as well. Sorry in advance if I notated those unblockables incorrectly, I'm very bad at the first one especially, so I don't know the specific number of moves.

 

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1. If the Hakumen doesn't use their drive, Carl can always just use Ada for long blockstrings, as usual. I was just pointing out the utility there over just grabbing him, as an Anima counter will get way more damage and can be safer if you jump back barrier or crossup with vivace. (I should really elaborate more, sorry bout that.)
2. Oh, yeah. If Ada triggers Yukikaze, super jumping out and using allegretto to float is his option to avoid it. No punish as far as I can tell, just meant that you can get away. (ooh, I see, I said you could hit him out of Yukikaze. My bad, guess that's not a thing :P)
3. Vivace is the command dash, 236A/B, A is projectile invul, so probably good against agito? I think it's called. 236B is head and mid invul and you can use it to get out when someone jumps in or tries to overhead you. It moves a longer distance, too, so it can make you safe just from that. Lows and projectiles beat it, though, so Carl has to be careful. Both are great for crossups, which is another way to get the Anima grab. other than catching a Hakumen being reckless with his drives.
4. The unblockables are Carl's standard high + low such as [airdash j.AxN > j.2C > j.A > j.B + 3D], [2Ax2 > 2B > 6B + 2D], [6C + 3D], [j.C 4D] etc. which all hit high and low at the same time. I'm 99% sure Hakumen can always beat the first one cleanly with super as it resets and yukikaze is like 1 frame right? if so the others as well. Sorry in advance if I notated those unblockables incorrectly, I'm very bad at the first one especially, so I don't know the specific number of moves.

 

3. From a little messing around in training mode, iad j.B seems to beat 236A at these ranges where iad agito is an option. This can be OS'd with ODC as well into j.2C>5C>etc. In ranges where Carl attempts to delay 236A timing to avoid iad j.B, reverse Tsubaki works as well. 236B will also outright lose to agito regardless, even at normal jump height distance. Carl 6A seems to make Hakumen sad at most ranges though.

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If that's the case it probably does. Vivace B's nerf to only being head and body invul really sucks lol. Used to have projectile in there too

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Wouldn't  Agito beat Vivace A or B regardless since it has every single property type?

I thought this as well, but Agito whiffs through Vivace A every time I've tried against it. I thought it was an issue of height at first, but then when I tried hop Agito, Carl just passes on by. I can try again later and try to delay Vivace more since I didn't spend too much time on this as I wanted to practice some Izayoi stuff, but yeah, from what I could tell, properly timed Vivace made agito whiffed.

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If an attack has proj. property, then Vivace A will roll through it regardless of whether or not it has any other type.

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Dumping my thoughts on the matchup from Carl's side. It's not super organized so I apologize if it gets hard to follow at any point lol. Correct me and/or add to this as needed.

Neutral

Like every other matchup, Carl wants to trap Hakumen with the doll to allow him to get in and start pressuring. Carl's general gameplan in neutral is to keep the doll in 46D range within Hakumen and use Tenerezza to trap Hakumen in place to let Carl get in easier. If Hakumen ends up blocking the Tenerezza, Carl can IAD without fear of retaliatory AAs and get a jump-in to pressure Hakumen.

If Hakumen tries to IAD past the doll, Carl can stop air approaches with 6A, 236B or preemptive j.A. If Hakumen ends up IAD'ing past the doll but is too far from Carl for Carl to AA him, Carl also has the option of backdashing + making the doll do Fuoco. It doesn't punish Hakumen per se but the Fuoco coming from behind will hit the opponent or make them block if they don't move out of the way. It's also a good option if you think Haku might IAD Agito. Although Hakumen has some intimidating looking normals, it's surprisingly risky for him to approach Carl as his grounded movement and options don't work well against the doll while his air approaches have very clear answers to them.

The biggest dilemma in this matchup for Carl is how to counter a Hakumen that doesn't approach and instead opts to poke at the doll to prevent her from attacking. Hakumen can poke the doll with 4C and j.C from a safe distance that makes it difficult for Carl to approach solo. Carl can't really punish these pokes but depending on how the Hakumen pokes Ada, Carl can still make the pokes whiff and capitalize on the advantage:

- If Hakumen is reactively poking Ada's activation startup with 4C in anticipation, you can bait it by tapping 5D to quickly activate and then deactivate the doll. If Hakumen tries to react to this "fake" activation with 4C and whiffs, immediately input 46D to counterpoke him. It won't actually punish Haku, but making him block the 46D will let you IAD in to start your pressure.
- If Hakumen is hopping around to try to poke with j.C, you can either use Brio if he's close enough to get hit or 46D him as he lands to trap him and allow you to start pressure.
- Hakumen poking the doll with 5A is hard to punish since he can jump cancel it but you can deal with this with a careful jump-in or by air grabbing/j.A'ing him if you think he'll try to jump.
- This is somewhat risky but a preemptive AD will beat Haku's 4C.

- If the doll is too far to use 46D and you're certain you can catch Hakumen with it, Fuoco is also a good move to trap Haku with.

If Haku keeps moving back to avoid doll altogether, take advantage of this and move forward to gain ground. He can only move back for so long before he gets himself into the corner.

Offense

Aside from the usual Carl setplay fare, one useful tool Carl has in this matchup is that not only his throw beats Haku's drive but anima does as well. If you're fighting a counter happy Haku but don't want to throw in fear of him mashing out, throw out an Anima every now and then in your blockstrings.

Haku doesn't have a meterless frame 1 high counter so safe jumps make for great meaties if you're in the position for it. Otherwise, doll meaties are also great.

Since Haku's low counter is active from frame 1, he can actually counter Carl's j.B + 3/4D unblockables since the low hits first. You can try to bait this with throws or anima.

If he drive counters a doll move, you can still block his drive and then pressure him after his drive animation finishes.

If Haku's Yukikaze goes off, you can avoid it by either super jumping or B Vivace.

Defense

[Correct me if I'm missing anything here, I don't really know all the ins and outs of Haku so there might be something I'm unaware of]

Not much to say here since Haku pressure isn't super great, even more so if he doesn't have stars to use to get back in. Careful blocking, barrier + fuzzy jump usage and disrespect will get you out.

- If you block 6B, he can cancel into 2D to bait your mash. It's not a favourable gamble for him though.
- Make sure to barrier if you jump out, lest you get caught by 5C into big damage.

I find that Haku has a pretty hard time dealing with a wakeup backdash + Tenerezza/Brio and wakeup B Vivace + Tenerezza/Brio if you alternate between these two. On the other hand, he can do a lot of damage if he calls out your disrespect correctly and potentially win the round if he has resources, so blocking is still a respectable option.

Other notes

- Match start 4C from Haku will beat any round start poke from Carl. The safest way to deal with it is to either backdash, jump back barrier or jump forward barrier into late j.C. The last option is a bit riskier since he can make you block if you guessed wrong, but it'll give you advantage if you guessed right.
- Be really careful with pressure if he has OD cancel available to him.
- Doll activation has strike armor so you can try to time the activation to armor through a poke if you're feeling yourself. This is harder to do in practice.
- Carl's 3C low profiles Haku 4C. This is also difficult to use in practice.

 

tldr for Carl;
- Use doll to trap Hakumen
- Bait his pokes with activate > deactivate
- Throw/anima his drives

Haku has some good tools to deal with Carl neutral and damaging punishes, but his clunky movement makes approaching Carl hard. On the flip side, Carl can find ways to get in with smart decisions and a bit of creativity and start running his oppressive offense with the right play. Definitely a fightable matchup for both sides in this version of BB. Probably a 5-5 matchup.

 

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Thanks for your thorough response, glad to see another Carl give a more indepth perspective on this matchup!

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