Mitsuru vs. Aigis

[TheRealDMac]

Please use this thread to talk about the matchup!

I'm currently filling in the gaps for Mitsuru, and may contribute notes to the thread myself once I'm finished doing my personal matchup grind.

[AchedSphinx]

I suppose I will give a somewhat thorough analysis of this match up. My gameplay is specific to netplay only, so if you're an offline player your experiences will vary. Also, I am at best an intermediate player, so take my info how you will.

This match up is either very easy for Mitsuru or very difficult. It can be easy because Aigis does not have any tools to deal with Mitsuru's 5A pressure. You can easily win by her making bad guesses time after time since Aigis doesn't have a lot of options against 5A. If you delay your 5A somewhat, it gives the Aigis player an opening to do sweep which will put you at a disadvantage. Aigis can't follow that up with damage, but any good Aigis will go into Orgia mode from there and then it's time for the ultimate 50/50 guessing game.

Somethings you should know. The better Aigis players will always be wary of Mitsuru's DP. Unlike most characters, Mitsuru's DP can hit behind her, which slows down Aigis' ability to do a cross over j.C. It doesn't stop it entirely because the Aigis player will eventually bait your DP, making you wary to even use it so you may have to take the risk. To deal with Aigis' 50/50 you do have to block it so get to practicing in training mode. This may be specific to the lower skill level of Aigis players, but if their initial mix-up doesn't work, they tend to panic. Meaning they'll go for something like double j.B, that's your opening to DP and escape pressure.

Here are some other tips. It is possible to anti-air Aigis with 2B, however I wouldn't recommend it. She can outmaneuver your 2B and you're just stuck in the recovery frames. So doing 2D is a viable option because they tend to approach from that high. If they block, and you delay the 2D~D a bit you can make an approach. Aigis' option to deal with this is to simply run up dash. That's there Droit B comes in handy. Aigis doesn't want to get hit by droit B at all. It will force them into the corner at the mercy of 5A.

To deal with Aigis' neutral j.A is a staple but don't take too many risks. Aigis' risk vs reward is much better than yours. Also if Aigis likes to approach with j.C, do a sweep, you'll go right under it. However, this is a beginner tactic and won't work often against better players. If you're in the corner vs Aigis it will be tough. There aren't many gaps in her pressure because she can jump cancel most of her normals on block. Often she will wish to reset her pressure with Orgia mode. If she does so, 2B is your only option if you don't want to block near unblockable 50/50s in the corner. It's risky, but the risk is the same level as doing a DP, at least with 2B you can jump cancel if she blocks it somehow.

If you are facing a really good Aigis player, they will end their Orgia if their initial mix-up doesn't work. You can pressure them after that happens but don't mash DP because she can block soon afterwards. The tactic itself is mostly meant to expose bad players. Also, if you do auto-combo and end up close to them, the Aigis player can mash 5A to beat out your 5A. So either block or backdash.

Overall I will say this match-up is 50/50.

[mixedmethods]

I hate being the fun police, but much of what you've written is 100% false, AchedSphinx. The reason this MU was tricky in Arena was because Aigis had no options against well-spaced 5As from Mitsuru; she simply could not challenge Mitsuru at certain ranges, particularly round start. In Ultimax, that's no longer the case, as Aigis's sweep is one of the best in the game (in addition to being Aigis's best starter) while Mitsuru's 5A is 1f slower and has a reduced vertical hitbox. If Aigis lands a sweep starter near the corner or with sufficient meter, the game may very well be over, as her damage is ridiculous, so claiming Aigis has no answers to 5A and that her sweep isn't a problem is empirically untrue. 

Neutral got tougher for Mitsuru thanks to 5A now being contestable along with the buffs to Aigis's neutral and crazy amounts of Orgia gauge. Her ability to whiff punish Mitsuru is much better, while Mitsuru now has more problems anti-airing due to the head invuln frames being moved back on her 2B. Aigis's 2B still stuffs any bad attempts at setup at neutral (Bufula, bad Droits), and since Aigis will probably be in Orgia more often than not, she can Boost-cancel any blocked 2Bs and fly in for mixup. Mitsuru's DP is slow enough to be reliably baited and safejumped off a 5B > boost-cancel j.B, so once Aigis gets in, you'll need to make the right defensive calls based on the player's offence to escape. Double Megido combos are still painful, albeit not meterless -- midscreen, j.B is 3.7k or so, sweep is 4.6k, j.C(1) is about 3.9k, and you'll be back in the vortex afterward. (And if the Aigis has another 25 meter to add air mortars, the damage is even higher.) (Also, let's not talk about the corner.) 

Off reliable starters, Aigis is going to do huge damage for 25 meter, whereas Mitsuru is going to need a crouch confirm or counter hit to achieve equivalent damage for resources. That's one problem. The other is that the reward Aigis gets for a Megido knockdown is a safejump into safe pressure and unreactable mixup, so not only does Aigis need fewer hits to close a round than Mitsuru, she's also more likely to get those hits. Orgia combos aren't dependent on FC or CH starters, so it's more likely Aigis is going to convert any hit, normal/standing/midscreen/corner, into major damage for 25 SP (which is meter she doesn't have to justify spending), whereas Mitsuru... well, isn't, and Mitsuru has far more issues with meter management than Aigis. 

On the defensive side: Aigis has a 5f 5A, so any A Droit can be Fuzzy Mashed, as well as sweep and sweep feint, which is a huge problem for Mitsuru's pressure. It's much harder for Mitsuru to keep Aigis locked down  now than in Arena due to her inconsistent reward on hit and the changes to her knockdown game. Combine Mitsuru's issues with Aigis's increased Orgia meter and it becomes much harder for Mitsuru: if Aigis isn't locked down or 5As a Droit, it may be the end of the round. On the bright side, Aigis's DP is one of the weaker ones, so there's that, but she does have very good reversal supers -- 236236C will punish over-commitment and can be made safe with an OMC/OMB, while C and SB Spear are plus on block, Fatal Counter, and combo with or without Fatal, so be very careful on Aigis's wakeup in Awakening. 236236CD hits twice and with an OMC can lead into a hard to see high-low mixup (or an Orgia backdash out of a preemptive punish followed by Aigis whiff-punishing you, etc.). 

Mitsuru still has a very good DP and it will tag bad cross ups, but  then risk-reward comes into play, as if the cross up doesn't come and/or the DP is baited, it's a free punish for Aigis. For 5A>2A>5A pressure, Mitsuru's buttons are too slow to poke out (even on IB). In Orgia, it comes down to selecting the appropriate defensive options based on what the Aigis player is doing, but the problem with Aigis is that you can't block everything, so once you start blocking, it's a matter of time until you're opened up. GCR is very useful tool, but it costs the meter that Mitsuru loves so much, which means even a good GCR is not entirely to Aigis's disadvantage -- Mitsuru may escape Aigis's offence, but if she spends all her meter to do so, Aigis has much less to worry about. 

You can read Anne's Evernote on dealing with Aigis here: https://www.evernote.com/shard/s589/sh/be7c451a-775f-4f5a-9abb-6e4e2fbb4676/60121a31b193478b0eb64b807a603398 -- OSes can work, just don't get baited. Aigis's fuzzyguard setups work on Mitsuru. 

Mitsuru's pressure is better and more obnoxious compared to Arena, but her risk-reward, setplay, and average damage all took a hit from Arena. Aigis's risk-reward is skewed, her ground throw is still glitched (cannot be preemptively teched), her damage is explosive, her mixup and pressure now lasts longer due to Orgia gauge buffs, and she's a jetplane. The old tactic of playing "runaway" against Aigis in Orgia to drain her gauge isn't as effective as Aigis has too much Orgia, so her turn isn't going to hurt less just because you make her chase you down. Both sides need meter but Aigis gets a knockdown meterless and is going to build to 25SP for double Megido combos more easily than Mitsuru will stock meter for optimal damage. Unlike Mitsuru, Aigis doesn't need huge amounts of meter for supers, so any time an Aigis has 25SP, it's a double Megido combo, knockdown, rinse and repeat. 

Finally: Aigis is much better at robbing people than Mitsuru. Again, once Awakened, Aigis has FC on C and SB Spear and SB Spear is one of the fastest reversals in the game. Even if you block them, Aigis is plus, so you don't have the leeway to hit buttons. Any combo with Spear(s) + Megido is going to negate your Burst, so, yes, you can do well all match and then ... well, robbery. Her max damage without Orgia EXO is over 11k, so if Aigis has a Burst for OMB and/or gets a mortar loop starter, you may as well consider the round done. 

The MU is definitely Aigis's favour. Fun fact: DIE-chan switched to Minazuki because Aigises were everywhere at the start of Ultimax and Mitsuru doesn't do as well against Aigis as she once did. Obviously, the MU has evolved since then (and he plays Rise now), but it's still an uphill battle for Mitsuru. 

tl;dr this MU is hard for Mitsuru because she lost the ability to effectively and reliably anti-air and her reward is too low versus Aigis specifically. It's not that Mitsuru's damage is actually bad so much as that Aigis has too much Orgia meter and too much damage in Orgia, so Aigis is going to kill you much faster than you kill her... and you can't let Aigis live. 

[AchedSphinx]

23 hours ago, mixedmethods said:

I hate being the fun police, but much of what you've written is 100% false, AchedSphinx.

Not 100% false. I mentioned it in my opening paragraph. "If you delay your 5A somewhat, it gives the Aigis player an opening to do sweep which will put you at a disadvantage." The chest invul doesn't kick in from frame one so you can still meaty Mitsuru's 5A at max range and Aigis has very few options to deal with it.

 

23 hours ago, mixedmethods said:

Neutral got tougher for Mitsuru thanks to 5A now being contestable along with the buffs to Aigis's neutral and crazy amounts of Orgia gauge. Her ability to whiff punish Mitsuru is much better, while Mitsuru now has more problems anti-airing due to the head invuln frames being moved back on her 2B.

 

The neutral remains the same. Sure Mitsuru's 2B got nerfed, but it was seldom useful in the match-up (unless the Aigis really telegraphs their jump-ins which is super rare) the risk vs reward is unfavorable. Anti-airs in general are pretty bad in this game and Mitsuru's is one of them. Using Droit in neutral is a favorable risk vs reward for Mitsuru depending on game state. She doesn't take much damage if hit, but Aigis suffers a lot more if hit. Bufula set-ups in neutral seem counterproductive to me so I don't do it often. The set-up feels like something you do if you're at an advantage and Mitsuru has way better options at her disposal. I mean sometimes, I might toss out a Bufula C just for fun, but its mostly to make them stop and think for a moment. Mitsuru's DP may be slow, but its still effective at dealing with Aigis' pressure more so than other DPs. But yeah, don't spam it.

23 hours ago, mixedmethods said:

 

Off reliable starters, Aigis is going to do huge damage for 25 meter, whereas Mitsuru is going to need a crouch confirm or counter hit to achieve equivalent damage for resources.

 

I won't sugarcoat it. Mitsuru doesn't have any reliable means to get crazy damage like Aigis without meter, that's why her gameplan is to space Aigis and force her into making mistakes.

23 hours ago, mixedmethods said:

On the defensive side: Aigis has a 5f 5A, so any A Droit can be Fuzzy Mashed, as well as sweep and sweep feint, which is a huge problem for Mitsuru's pressure.

Yes, you do have to be mindful of your pressure as Mitsuru since she's not at that Minazuki level just yet. Her best options for dealing with Aigis is staggering pressure and the throw game, then once you get enough meter, the ultimate mix-up. You don't have to worry about the over-commitment stuff. If Aigis does DP, you can roll through if she does the super and punish her proper.

23 hours ago, mixedmethods said:

 

Mitsuru still has a very good DP and it will tag bad cross ups, but  then risk-reward comes into play, as if the cross up doesn't come and/or the DP is baited, it's a free punish for Aigis.

Using DP is important. If you don't use DP then the Aigis won't be afraid to run her pressure. The risk vs reward is unfavorable for Mitsuru but necessary. I don't DP often in the match-up but sometimes you have to. GCR is fine so long as you can avoid the damage. Mitsuru may need meter, but since she relies on auto combo more than most characters, it'll replenish itself. There's no real way to deal with Aigis' pressure. The only avenue of escape is to block it. Though you can DP it if she does two mix-up options at once. Or if she's baiting DP you can escape that way. The strategy is similar to when someone is baiting a burst. It basically just gives you an extra burst if they're unsuccessful at baiting. Granted this is just general knowledge.

23 hours ago, mixedmethods said:

Mitsuru's pressure is better and more obnoxious compared to Arena, but her risk-reward, setplay, and average damage all took a hit from Arena.

Mitsuru mostly uses supers if it'll win the round. She usually uses her meter for SB droit for corner combos and j.B OMC j.B. So she doesn't need huge amounts of meter, she just needs you to be in the corner, which is probably worse depending on how you feel. The runaway tactic has its uses. Such as repositioning and things of that nature. Not effective as it used to be, but at least there's something to be gain from it. If 2.0 ever releases on consoles, Mitsuru's biggest flaw will be fixed, but for now she's lacking when it comes to standing state knockdowns.

23 hours ago, mixedmethods said:

 

Finally: Aigis is much better at robbing people than Mitsuru. Again, once Awakened, Aigis has FC on C and SB Spear and SB Spear is one of the fastest reversals in the game. Even if you block them, Aigis is plus, so you don't have the leeway to hit buttons. Any combo with Spear(s) + Megido is going to negate your Burst, so, yes, you can do well all match and then ... well, robbery. Her max damage without Orgia EXO is over 11k, so if Aigis has a Burst for OMB and/or gets a mortar loop starter, you may as well consider the round done.

 

There are two situational corner cases where Mitsuru can practically rob a round from someone (I don't consider 5B fatals practical). The first is using 2D when the opponent is close-ish to the corner. You end the combo with SB bufula, run up, do Mabufudyne and finally Myriad. 7k straight up. The other is a corner throw. It's not used often because the AoA~D can be a bit finicky. But yeah, get them in the same set-up. Another funny thing about Spear, that was from Arena, was that you could run up throw Aigis as she does it and the Spear will whiff. I haven't tested it in P4U2 though. Mitsuru also has an 11k damage combo, but its pretty impractical. Anyways, in all seriousness, most Aigis' I've played don't use Spear against me. If they do, its because I'm too close. The range on the move isn't stellar, so 5A is effective enough to prevent it. So the robbery in that way is preventable if you play to Mitsuru's strengths.

At any rate, I can understand why people feel that the match-up is in Aigis' favor. I personally believe its even and I stand by that.

[Senor_Saturno]

On 2015-11-05, 11:15:25, mixedmethods said:

Mitsuru's DP is slow enough to be reliably baited and safejumped off a 5B > boost-cancel j.B, so once Aigis gets in, you'll need to make the right defensive calls based on the player's offence to escape

Just to add to this, Mitsuru DP startup is 10 frames, so you will need to angle your boost j.B downward in order to land in time to block the DP. You can then punish with counter hit 2B for like 4.8k before she lands to super cancel.