[CT-CS2] Jin Block strings, frame traps, gimmicks, etc.

[Darcius]

Frame traps are kind of freestyle. Just set up a situation that might tempt them to press buttons, then make them pay for it.

Shits quoted for accuracy, son

[Blade]

5B eats wakeups after Icecar hits I think.

[Coren]

I'll have to try that shit out; what's the net frame advantage on that? It'll be nice to add some more non-meter eating pressure resets to my game.

[Killey]

I'm not very good at calculating the frame advantages as I still don't understand all of the intricacies to it. From what I can tell though you should end up with just +4 advantage after they block 2D. Keep in mind you only get +1 frame advantage with a blocked 234A and there is a 25 frame startup to 2D so your opponent does have a window to escape the guard string. However, certain reactions can be baited and punished, which is exactly why I like this string when close to the corner. Baited jumps that get punished with a CH Fubuki leads straight into Jin's corner combos that will either givew you good oki options or into Jin's higher damage corner combos.

[Darcius]

Don't worry too much about it Killey, nobody can actually notice the difference between +2 or +3 or 4 frames block advantage in a match crammed with more flying shit than Marvel tournament play. Don't bust your ass using only one "good" string that sets you up with a minor advantage, use the mixups you think are going to work. You just gotta set it up, feel it, and go for it. Besides, if it was a miraculously good frame adv setup that gave you a frame trap/bait opportunity window the size of the sun (like anything into 6d) then people are gonna see that shit and stay away from it. TL;DR: Get out there, and stop theory fightan.

[Killey]

lol True enough. No point in worrying about +3 or 4 frame advantage but it's just nice to know that you have it. As I said before when I did post the guard string it's not something I want to use all the time as you sacrifice your in close mix up game for a decent guard crush string. I fought against a person who could reliably IB 5D on reaction yesterday so the above guard string gets stuffed if you are too close after an IB 5D making the 236A unsafe and opens you up for a CH combo.

[Skye]

Freeze them. then Grab them. then 5a twice and Grab again. then 5a twice, 5b and Grab them again. then Grab them. Mindgames

are all you need really, "Frame Traps" are just a small apple of a big tree

.

[Coren]

Freeze them.

then

Grab them.

then

5a twice and Grab again.

then

5a twice, 5b and Grab them again.

then

Grab them.

Mindgames

are all you need really, "Frame Traps" are just a small apple of a big tree

.

Yeah, those Pink exclamation marks really get in their head.

:psyduck: :psyduck: :psyduck: :psyduck: :psyduck: :psyduck:

[Skye]

They can mistime their throw tech and be a guaranteed grab for you.

[bbq sauce]

K, so we have a thread for block strings, frame traps, etc. And it seems like everytime we have a new idea a thread is made, so I was thinking instead of that, we could merge those threads, and have a thread for general tricks, block strings we thought up, mix ups, roll punishment, resets etc. and have all the info that doesn't fit into combos and glitches here? Anywho I been fucking around in training mode and found some interesting stuff. Roll set ups: Generally, all our combos end in either 3C or Ice car B/C leading to knocked down opponents and Jin standing next to them. Generally, it's a bad idea to roll, because Jin is good at punishing rolls, however, sometimes people like to be tricky and roll to keep Jin honest when he gets too complacent with idea that they won't roll. And even if you do get the punish you have to do a much shorter, less damaging combo because they get to tech a lot faster in combos off roll punish. So I was thinking of mix up situations you can create, so rather than getting 1700 damage guaranteed, you get 50/50 for a full damage combo. If any of it is old lemme know, but, I've not seen any of it done before Back step vs forward roll If you do it as soon as you see the roll, Jin ends up in front of them (ie, you are on the left, before the roll and end up on the left after the roll) or if you delay it for a second you back dash ends behind them (ie you are on the left before the roll, and end up on the right after the roll). I'd go for 5B in this situation since it's quick and hard to tell which side Jin is on in tim to block on reaction. 6A/2B could work but 6A is slow enough to see which side to block from, but can be unexpected. IAD vs back roll This one is a little more gimmicky, 50/50 but, it can work. If they back roll and you do IAD jB you will cross up, if you do IAD and j236D right above their head you won't cross up, however it is pretty easy to react to, but, if they are expecting a cross up from the IAD you might get them looking. Always be aware that the recovery period (ie the part where they cannot move yet, but are no longer vulnerable) portion of a roll can be cancelled with a special move, and be weary of that vs characters with good reversal options. But, since most of it works as a 50/50 crossup they run the risk of in putting the motion backwards.

[bbq sauce]

Also I've come up with a few cool throw set ups that I haven't seen before, and since throws are hard to come by anymore with how easy teching is you really have to catch them off guard. During any ground combo, if you end with 214B/C there's a pretty cool reset into a throw that works by late RC'ing after the first hit of ice car b. It takes a good eye and quick reactions, but, you can actually RC after Jin flips for the second hit and his sword is on the way down. If you time it right the animation of the sword will actually be out on top of them, but not active when it RCs, you land almost immediately and throw. No pink !! because the hit stun of the 1st ice car hit has ends right around the time you RC. Similarly during a block string, you end with 214B/C RC on the 1st hit into air dash jBjAjC, if timed right, you'll see jC start up, but you land before it comes out and throw. Landing recovery seems instant so throw immediately after landing. As always, people with really good reactions will still be able to tech when they see the green !!, but, it can catch an opponent off guard here and there. Though, it's up to you whether or not a throw combo is worth spending 50% on.

[Killey]

The back dash or IAD back for oki is more reliable when you have your opponent in the corner as they'll want to get out of the corner as soon as possible. I'd rather go for a hi/low mix up oki game but this is worth doing since the damage output would be better if you land one of his BnB's. I'll throw in my tricks here. Corner combo that leads into 6D when they land you can IAD j.B, j.A, j.C land and throw. The j.A will whiff if you do it right in which case you can skip j.C and do a throw when you land but if it hits then you'll try to j.C and you'll see the first few frames of it before you land. Then you throw immediately and you'll get a green throw. Alternatively if you end a corner combo with 6D you let them land do another 6D then quickly dash in with 5A. It can cause a reset situation (combo count goes back to 1) and give you another corner combo for more corner games. The opponent is trying to mash out of the first 6D and the 2nd 6D breaks them out of it and the 5A is fast enough to catch some people off guard. It's an odd reset and t hat has some risky but all resets do and even if they block 5A you can dash into 2A's for safety which can lead into Jin's frame trap games. Another odd reset option that requires 50% heat. You basically do a combo that ends in 214D in the corner. You do 2C then 623D the first hit will freeze and then you attempt to fully charge the 2nd hit to catch your opponent off guard. When they break out of the ice you release D and if your opponent is slow you'll get the unblockable version of it which will reset the combo count and set you up for Jin's high damage corner combos.

[shtkn]

threads are now merged. I'll updaet the first post

[ryokoalways]

It's a good idea to bring out your crossup game after a fair amount of conditioning. Either the IAD d fireball/ja-jb, or in the corner, a similar variation off a 5b. Problem with either is that if you don't condition them, you are more likely to get blown out of the air than anything. Or maybe it's just because I play Rachel the most often and my friend (being a GG veteran) loves his 6a. Oh did I mention fuck her 6a?

[Killey]

Speaking of cross-ups here some of Jin's tricky cross up possibilities I've discovered. 1) Running at the opponent jumping slightly over them then back dashing with a j.B simple cross-up and on CH you can run in with a standard ground combo. 2) IAD over your opponent then as you fall j.B. IAD over your opponent with a j.B will whiff completely but if you delay the j.B it causes a cross up scenario. On CH you can run in with 5C, 214B. Nothing really amazing with not a lot of options to follow up but you can use it for mind games and get your opponent to throw something punishable out after wards. 3) A small block string then IAD over your opponent then 236D. It's actually not a proper cross up as your opponent just has to continue blocking in the original direction but it catches a lot of people off guard because the IAD changes their block direction then 236D changes the block direction once again. 4) A small block string then IAD over your opponent with j.D. The spacing on this is really tight as you won't get a proper combo upon landing if you time it too late. On high level play it's not hard to break out of the ice if you space this wrong. If you space it right you'll land just in front of your opponent and you can follow up with a 6C combo. You can cause 50/50 mix ups by timing this right above your opponents head and if they block you can 236A/B/C/D or 214A/B/C for safety. 5) If your opponent likes to block high you can do block strings that go into an early j.B, then j.A whiff it into another jump or air dash. You can use this extra jump to try for a cross up j.B or j.D. Something a little more advance is to do another j.B as you fall after whiffing j.A then jump cancel the j.B. You now have the option of making your opponent guess which way to block as you can jump at their head then j.D or jump behind them and do j.D. Again blocked j.D's can be special cancelled into 236A/B/C/D or Ice Cars.

[boringperson]

You guys are all talking about 5b, however I have a tough time landing 5b since it has no range and you really ahve to be right next to the opponent for the second hit to actually hit. I try many times IAD j.b in order to get a hit in, but that almost never allows me to go into a pressure string with 5b. What's a good way of actually approaching an opponent?

[Skye]

5a, Ice car-a, j5a, j5b, grab. Jin shouldn't be approaching too much.

[Killey]

Couple of ways to get in 5B. If you space yourself right then you can do a falling j.B, land, then rush in with 5B. Be careful with Litchi, Jin, Tager, and Ragna. They all have DP's with the exception of Tager who can back dash 360/720 you on rush ins. If you are in a poking string of 2A's you can dash in with 2A and then go into 5B.

[H-F Blade]

If you end a ground string with ice car, you can usually run up to them and 5B as their neutral tech is about to end. Though be wary against the characters in the above post who have good DPs/reversals.

[Killey]

Add Bang to that list as he has a few D moves that will eat 5B. On wake up 5B's if you time a meaty 5B none of the characters above will be able to get their counter moves going and will be forced to block or they will eat the 5B into a combo which is particularly bad for characters like Ragna and Tager because due to their hit boxes you can go straight into Jin's 3K BnB ground combo. Timing that meaty 5B is pretty tough though due to the teching system in this game. All they do is have to delay their tech and you screw up that meaty 5B timing. I'm interested in doing a comprehensive post that encompasses every trick that Jin has so far so we can just attach it to the first post for easy reference. Anyone willing to help? Going over Jin's reset options. I know some of these have been mentioned before but I want to have 1 post with all of the possibilities. 1) Any freeze combo that ends in 5C, j.B, j.C, j.D, 214B can lead into Jin's most common reset. The reset is basically doing j.B, j.A. Since j.A will whiff it gives Jin the ability to jump, air dash, or land. You have 5 options in this reset and it puts your opponent in a 50/50 guessing game. All of these options happen after the j.A whiff and are best done close to the corner for maximum combo damage and putting your opponent in Jin's corner game. Option 1 - Air Dash with j.B, j.C into a ground combo if it connects. It forces the opponent to block high as j.B and j.C are both overheads. On characters with odd hit boxes like Tager this can cause a cross up scenario as the air dash will actually go behind them. Option 2 - Air Dash with j.B, j.A, land then throw. If you time it right you will get a green throw. Option 3 - j.B. The simplest option but also trick to spot as not many people know that Jin can throw another j.B after whiffing j.A and causes an overhead situation it's also relatively safe for people who have quick reactions and try to spam a 5A to beat out air dash attempts they will eat j.B instead into a CH ground combo. Also, if they block the j.B you can jump cancel it into another j.B. If you are not in the corner then you can try doing a cross up j.B or j.D. You could also land if they block and do 2B for a low attack but keep in mind the standard 5C, B Fubuki combo will not work due to push back. Option 4 - land, 2B, 5C, B Fubuki, corner combo. Opponent has to be quick to block low or spam 5A to knock you out of the air. Landing this will get you a freeze combo into Jin's corner game or set up with a different reset which I will go over later on. Option 5 - land and throw. The most simple option to do but also the most risky as your opponent can spam 5A's to knock you out of the air or tech the throw leaving you with a completely wasted attempt. 2) Corner combo ending in a long freeze like 6D or 2D. Some examples of this are 5B, 5C, 623B, 5C, 6C, 6D or 5B, 5C, 3C, 2B, 5C, 6C, 6D or a combo ending in j.D (though j.D is not a long freeze). 3 options here. Option 1 - Rush in with 6D, slight pause then dash in with 5A/B. Extremely odd reset but requires quick reflexes and at worst they are left blocking 5A/B and either of those can lead into Jin's frame trap game. Option 2 - Instant Air Dash with j.B, j.A, land then throw. As I mentioned before if j.A hits then j.C land and throw. The more risky of the two but works great to set up another corner game with Jin. Option 3 - Rush in with 6A as they are mashing to recovery from ice. If you land 6A you can do the Sekkajin combo or 214D or 623B into another combo. Not the best reset but it catches people off guard as the extended start up frames work to your advantage as your opponent tries to escape from the Ice. You should probably do this rarely depending on the situation. Might be better towards the beginning of the match rather than a late game reset. 3) Corner combo's ending in 214D. Option 1 - I mentioned this a post or two ago but I wanted to add it here. Land 2C, 623D and charge the 2nd hit until they break out of ice. The way this reset works is that you force your opponent into a position where they have to mash out of Ice from 623D but by doing so they risk eating a charged up 2nd hit that causes ground slide. It's a nasty reset when it works as this easily leads into a 6000+ dmg for Jin. However, there are 2 things that defeat this reset. One is that your opponent breaks out of ice and starts mashing 5A/2A to smack you out of the 2nd hit. The second is to not break out of ice at all and take the 2nd unblockable hit. It causes the damage to prorate to all hell and any follow up will mean your opponent techs out after the next hit or two. However, most people don't realize that and will try to escape the ice. Block strings and Frame traps: Jin can create some of the longest and crazy block strings that will put people towards guard break and in the corner this only doubles and he becomes a vicious up close fighter. 5B is Jin's best ground normal as it causes a suck in on the 2nd hit and leaves you at 0f. It's very safe to do and sets you up for a ton of frame traps. Pretty much anything delayed after 5B can be considered a frame trap. The 1st hit of 5B can be special cancelled or cancelled into his Drive moves so you can use that knowledge to mix up your block strings. Cancelling the first hit of 5B into 6D gives Jin +4f and it's pretty hard for your opponent to react to the slow start up of 6D. So on block you are looking at another frame trap. 5B can be followed up with another 5B so you can do a few of these before mixing in his other normals. If you wait until 5B is done you can throw and it'll be counted as a green throw. It catches people off guard if you've been properly mixing up your block strings and frame traps. EG. 5B (1 hit), 6D, run up 5B, 5B, 2A, 2A, 2A, rush in, 2A, 5B, 5B, 5C, 2C, 5D, 236A, 2D, etc... Now the above block string is very dependent on opponent position and reactions but you should get the general idea of how Jin is capable of keeping on top of his opponent once he's got them blocking. A max distance blocked 5C can be chained into 2D or if your opponent barrier blocks a guard string ending in 5C you can chain to 2D as well. This will give you frame advantage as well as bring your opponent closer to you for additional pressure. 2D is excellent in block strings as it sets you up for other frame traps and can be used to catch people off guard. You can 2D after a j236D provided you are not too close to your opponent. This could lead into rush in 2A's or 5B's for additional frame trapping or if you are close to the corner rush in with 5C, 5D, 236A, 2D etc... J236D gives Jin +22 frames so good use of it leads to additional tools for pressure strings. Corner Game: Jin's got a pretty nasty corner game if you can set it up correctly and the best part is that any reset combo you do from this corner game leads them back into the same wait. What I typically do is land a corner combo ending in j.D or 6D then rush in with 5B, 5C, 3C, 236C. If the opponent neutral techs then I rush in and watch their guard. Low block I will do 6A into C Mash combo into the same 50/50 wait. If the block high I do 2B, 5C, 623B, 5C, 6C, 6D, 6D, 5B, 3C, 236C and put them in the wait again. If they delay their tech I throw 236D and force them to tech where I resume the 50/50 wait. If they roll back they will get hit by 236C and I can 6A back onto the ground for a meaty 5B. If they tech roll forward and get hit by 236C you can set up a air throw scenario. You can mix in throws as well for additional mix ups. Burst Baiting: Jin's got a few tools used to bait and punish bursts and it's really good to know these to bait out bursts as most people use them near death anyways so baiting them could very well win you the round. Jin's air combos are always going to be j.B, j.C, jump cancel j.B/C, etc... You can bait out bursts by jump cancelling after the first j.C and just block. If they burst you'll block it and land before they do so while they are falling use 5C, 5D, C Ice Car or 5C, 2C, sjc, j.C, j.D combos to punish after wards. Alternatively, you can RC anything in your air combo if you see the burst coming so you can RC block and punish. Ground strings are trickier to bait bursts but again you can jump cancel certain moves in your ground combos like 5C and try to bait bursts that way. RCing your combos after seeing the burst animation is another method as well. Limited punish options though. If they burst during an Ice Car you can rapid cancel the ice car and block it then punish. At farther distance if you managed to avoid the hit frames of the burst you can Ice Car during the rest of the animation and it'll punish them on the spot. Riskier option for burst punishing is using 623D and use the invincibility frames at the beginning to dodge the first then use the 2nd hit to punish. Works great in the corner as it leads to 6C follow ups.

[Skye]

Spam Anti airs, B-projectile and non-heat D moves. It's really intimidating, even in Jin dittos.

Time the right anti airs right, even V-13 can't do anything. It also lowers the predictablility of Ice Cars.

Ice Cars are our friend, just need to know when to use them, and it's extremely easy and common to find an opportunity, unless you're fighting Tager.

Sorry if thart sounds too opinionated.

[Tomoki]

I use this Tactic against Haku's and Tagers, basically really defensive players. When in range I 2D, This Moves them SLIGHTLY forward, (for me) This always brings them in range for a 5C in which I follow up with a 5D, the 5D will push them back SLIGHTLY, Afterwards I 2D, if done correctly the enemy will have only a second to react after thee 5D->2D. It does Very good Guard libra damage after the second time and puts on pressure. I've used it a good 5-6 times successfully. Success being After a repeat of two times(+ the actual battles guard libra damage) The enemies Libra was flashing white and the player made desperate attempts to attack. All in which I drew back and countered.. I suggest this for tagers and hakumen because they are REALLY defensive, they will defend..well..just because.. Too my knowledge Tager should not have enough time to suit up Sledge, even if he does you should have the range of 5D, which should be sufficient for escape. Basically Since I'm really afraid of getting close to tagers right now, I use it as a Guard Break method. That and to keep the enemy in a certain spot for a few seconds. I'm sure its not impervious,(of course Barrier burst could smash through it) However no players yet have successfully countered me out of the loop. If you please; express criticism or possible better strategy..

[Killey]

Pretty common block string to use on any character but here are the flaws to it. IBing in general will put them out of distance of 5C into 2D. With Tager he is very capable of sledging in reaction to 2D or 5D. In fact most Tagers will just sledge after 5C as most people attempt to do 5D after wards but you can use that to your advantage to bait Sledge and then DP them for a CH into combo. Hakumen can D counter you if you attempt to 5C after 2D but again use that as bait and just run up and counter throw them when they throw D out. Litchi can Tsubame you when you attempt to 5C into a CH but pretty sure the distance won't allow the 2nd hit of Tsubame to connect thus you don't eat a full combo but still not safe at all. She can also Tsubame to 2D causing it to whiff and you have no means to counter the Tsubame as your stuck in recovery frames so it's not a terrible option for Litchi at all. Ragna and Jin can DP out of the block string as well for very much the same reason as Litchi can. Jin has a bit more trouble with the string but 623D will be his best option to counter it. Bang can Drive teleport into punish against this block string but you can jump cancel after 5C so you can jump to safety if that's the case. Pretty sure Noel can 5D and use invincibility frames to CH your 5C depending on the distance. I'm sure Rachel can wind and Cat Chair you out of 5C or maybe 6A as well. Use the block string as it is hard to react to sometimes but learn how to adapt the block string with certain characters to take advantage of their counter strategies. It's a good frame trap string so you want to trick them into doing some counter that is most likely unsafe and puts them in a CH state allowing you to capitalize and deal some severe damage.

[Tomoki]

Pretty common block string to use on any character but here are the flaws to it.

IBing in general will put them out of distance of 5C into 2D. With Tager he is very capable of sledging in reaction to 2D or 5D. In fact most Tagers will just sledge after 5C as most people attempt to do 5D after wards but you can use that to your advantage to bait Sledge and then DP them for a CH into combo.

Hakumen can D counter you if you attempt to 5C after 2D but again use that as bait and just run up and counter throw them when they throw D out.

Litchi can Tsubame you when you attempt to 5C into a CH but pretty sure the distance won't allow the 2nd hit of Tsubame to connect thus you don't eat a full combo but still not safe at all. She can also Tsubame to 2D causing it to whiff and you have no means to counter the Tsubame as your stuck in recovery frames so it's not a terrible option for Litchi at all.

Ragna and Jin can DP out of the block string as well for very much the same reason as Litchi can. Jin has a bit more trouble with the string but 623D will be his best option to counter it.

Bang can Drive teleport into punish against this block string but you can jump cancel after 5C so you can jump to safety if that's the case. Pretty sure Noel can 5D and use invincibility frames to CH your 5C depending on the distance. I'm sure Rachel can wind and Cat Chair you out of 5C or maybe 6A as well.

Use the block string as it is hard to react to sometimes but learn how to adapt the block string with certain characters to take advantage of their counter strategies. It's a good frame trap string so you want to trick them into doing some counter that is most likely unsafe and puts them in a CH state allowing you to capitalize and deal some severe damage.

Oh man, Thanks for the Info, I knew it had many flaws Just didn't realize it was so dangerous against a knowing player... It came in handy when putting on pressure but I now see its flaws.

[ocdscale]

2) Corner combo ending in a long freeze like 6D or 2D. Some examples of this are 5B, 5C, 623B, 5C, 6C, 6D or 5B, 5C, 3C, 2B, 5C, 6C, 6D or a combo ending in j.D (though j.D is not a long freeze). 3 options here.

Option 1 - Rush in with 6D, slight pause then dash in with 5A/B. Extremely odd reset but requires quick reflexes and at worst they are left blocking 5A/B and either of those can lead into Jin's frame trap game.

How does this reset work? Is it because people don't realize they don't need to shake out of the second 6D and end up getting tagged with 5A/5B before they realize?