Jump to content
Eshi

Amane BBCF Discussion Thread

Recommended Posts

Lets keep BBCF information here and discuss our thoughts!

Damage and Proration values for Amane

Lots of footage of Arukemi playing Amane

Jirou's Day 1 change info

Spoiler
Quote

- Jirou said that Ginga (new move) is SUPER good. Works super well to pressure and as a combo part too

- Jirou also said that Amane's damage output is good this time: in the corner you can get over 2,5k off a 2A AND lvl up drill after

- Drill damage is overall lower but it's easier to lead the match to a situation where you can force opponent to block/get hit by it

- 2D doesn't wallbound in the corner anymore

- j.6D has more untech time

- j.D staggers less than before on hit

- You can follow up j.236C with something else if you land first

- You can follow up a 3C > 236C in the corner with 2B now

- 6C might have less untech time

- 2B either has a faster startup or better attack level

Other BBCF changes:

Spoiler

Counterhit Gekiren (623C) now causes ground bounce and Amane can combo after it for no meter.

System change: SMP is removed from all moves with regard to combo time. For Amane, this means he can loop 5D/Ginga/etc. multiple times in a combo.

EX: corner 2B > 5D > ginga > 5B > 5D > ginga > 5B > 5D > ginga > meaty ginga

System change: Bursts now beat all invincible/super armor/projectile armor moves. Amane can't bait bursts with Hariken anymore.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2A starter into 2.5k AND drill level? Jesus Chirst, after struggling to get anything over 3k baring ridiculous Hariken starters, that's good enough to put on a plaque and charge admission to be allowed to read it.

 

After reading Hima's overview of overdrive/burst exceed accel, I think Amane is going to be one of the greater beneficiaries of all the changes to the system mechanics. Using an early overdrive to get some startup drill momentum feels like an actual viable strategy now instead of a huge gamble. Exceed accel itself is a huge boon, since we now actually have a reversal that's safe on block (barring OD raid). The fact it DOESN'T overheat our drill gauge makes me wonder about quick OD combos that end in EA to boost our drills and deal out a chunk of damage, AND prime us for active flow. Sure the no minimum damage thing make it kinda limp noodle-y after a few hits, but it's more about gaining momentum and setting our option to burst back up as quick as possible so there's less time to punish Amane for it.

I'm almost worried-- I feel like if I get too happy about this they'll pull the rug out from under us, and obliterate him between now and the 19th, but Amane's prospects are turning up really, really good as far as I can tell. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll try and be devil's advocate, but it's hard to tell though from just impressions. On paper, early EA sounds good for any character. But if the oki from EA is similar to say 5D > 236C, you effectively only gain Active flow and maybe some decent damage. I would have said you trade your burst, but regain rate with active flow is apparently really good. Anyhow, if there's little to no oki and you do an early use, that's about 75% of a drill level (about what you'd get in this version) and your active flow for the round. If you can't really keep momentum from this option, I doubt this is making good use of active flow besides burst regen rate.

Although we will see, there might be oki and I'm talking crap. Aaaaah pre-release theorycrafting ~

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am extremely excited about these changes. I love how Amane's playstyle changed in CPEX but losing most of his damage and meterless level 3 setups negated it. If OD is generally better than burst then Amane wins more than others for both gaining a meterless reversal option and passively benefitting from OD no matter what. Plus consistent ways to combo after j236C and 236C > 2B enabling better corner confirms? excellent!

Although, if people are enouraged to GCOD even more then it might be a net loss due to his long recovery normals. Also invulnerable moves now lose to burst so CH 3C is a gauranteed burst point, we might need to replace it with CH 6A jump cancel. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I read the part about combos after j236C, but was it also reported as being easier/more reliable than they currently are. WIth no context for that part, it just comes off similar to what it already is? For reference, talking about corner combos where Amane would do j2C to lift the opponent slightly above himself > j236C > follow up

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, DerQ said:

I read the part about combos after j236C, but was it also reported as being easier/more reliable than they currently are. WIth no context for that part, it just comes off similar to what it already is? For reference, talking about corner combos where Amane would do j2C to lift the opponent slightly above himself > j236C > follow up

If it works the same as it did before then there'd be no point in mentioning it. I hope that's not the case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, there's a point to say it's still possible with the new angle. It doesn't go as far horizontally. As far as easier, the behavior ought to be the same. I fiddled a bit with harder combo routes lately, including that one. I can see how the new angle could help Amane be lower than the opponent more reliably, but it still seems a bit of wishful thinking. It's just specific screen height, specific height compared to Amane, etc. A frustrating mess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AMANE FOOTAGE 

vs. Noel - http://www.twitch.tv/baf0/v/26405595?t=11m15s

- Doing Exceed Accel immediately after starting OD will end it so quickly that he gains almost no drill meter.

- Counterhit Ginga is easily hit confirmed into 5C and does a lot of damage.

- Blocked 5D > Ginga is extremely good. It can't be mashed out of like Hariken or Zettou pressure and is a lot safer on block than Raibu. He FINALLY has a pressure tool that doesn't lose to 5A mash, it will for sure help his offense! Might be unsafe in the corner though due to lack of pushback.

- Hariken projectile invul does not stop bursts anymore. Shitty but a system wide change.

vs. Jin - http://www.twitch.tv/baf0/v/26405595?t=20m50s

- Match-up still looks dumb.

- OTG Ginga can't be teched in the air, it seems. 

- 5B > 5D > 236C RC > 6A > 623C doesn't work in the corner. Huh? I wonder why.

- Ginga to counter pushback from level 3 5D looks so scary!

vs. Nu-13 - http://www.twitch.tv/baf0/v/26405595?t=25m15s

- Ginga oki is very good oki against emergency tech, especially if it can't be air teched on OTG.

- I just noticed, Raibu knockdown on ground hit looks a lot closer than before. Possibly better for oki? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Safe cancel for 5D, provides oki, has uses in corner combos and functions as a combo starter leading to substantial damage, AND patched up Amane's dead space zone. Is there anything Ginga can't do? 

I'm hoping that the lack of use we're seeing for his new normals is more because people aren't used to them rather than them being not good (or maybe Ginga is just overshadowing them with it's godlike showing lol). They gotta be at least combo filler or something. The spacing that Ginga creates on block after a 5D looks like it should fall into 4C's range, though unless the vacuum effect is substantial, that's probably not too useful. Even still, something tells me we might not see what these additions are really capable of until we get console release for some labwork.

Console release can't come fast enough.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, oh no, he said said:

I'm hoping that the lack of use we're seeing for his new normals is more because people aren't used to them rather than them being not good (or maybe Ginga is just overshadowing them with it's godlike showing lol). They gotta be at least combo filler or something. The spacing that Ginga creates on block after a 5D looks like it should fall into 4C's range, though unless the vacuum effect is substantial, that's probably not too useful. Even still, something tells me we might not see what these additions are really capable of until we get console release for some labwork.

There's more reasons as to why we don't see it more than that, especially day 1. This was pachi, he doesn't play blazblue afaik. Ginga does seem a lot easier to get results with and to get used to. Makes sense that this is what we're seeing.

It's in 4C range, sure, but if those new normals have the same gatlingsas 5C or 2C, then you get less options than if you just did run 5B. And it covers crouching/jumping, etc.

6 hours ago, DaiAndOh said:

Has there been any word on 6D oki in this game? Real or fake without meter?

Unknown? The change they did to 6D that allows the top drill to slide towards the opponent once it hits the ground conflicts the property that it cancels if it doesn't touch anything on the first active frame. Time will tell

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had a thought this morning; the new Exceed Accel stuff is going to greatly push up Amane's damage. After losing some health, he can confirm any ground combo into 3C ODC 5B > 5C > 6C[1] > hariken cancel > Exceed Accel. This was just an okay option before but I think BBCF has made it extremely strong; converting into a juggle raises his damage for free, ODC should fill up his drill meter close to 3, and now ending in EA adds even more damage while initiating Active Flow for a damage buff and increased burst recovery. I wonder if he could even do it from max health, or if active flow increases his chip damage?

 

6D oki is still fake in this game. Even if it didnt force recovery on whiff, everyone has wakeup OD into Exceed Accel now (does it reach?). However, favoring OD over burst may negate his need for 6D.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see.

Exceed Accel tends to scale damage, but I suppose from the videos you saw, that combo does just fine with it? I imagine Active Flow helps significantly too with that combo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, DaiAndOh said:

I see.

Exceed Accel tends to scale damage, but I suppose from the videos you saw, that combo does just fine with it? I imagine Active Flow helps significantly too with that combo.

EA does high damage but doesn't have minimum damage unlike normal supers, so shorter combos are best for its use. I really like the idea of pushing up average damage for no meter and not really giving up anything since burst will very likely recharge before the round ends.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Indeed, it's a good theory I to see.

I am also curious about Ginga's base frame data (startup/recovery/advantage)...looks good and gapless pressure is great to start but might force an end to pressure without RC? Perhaps forcing people to respect it then trying Amane's weaker options (hop, hariken) that reset might work?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Eshi said:

EA does high damage but doesn't have minimum damage unlike normal supers, so shorter combos are best for its use. I really like the idea of pushing up average damage for no meter and not really giving up anything since burst will very likely recharge before the round ends.

 

Seeing the knockdown it produces against Noel in the video you posted, I wouldn't be surprised if the oki is equivalent to j.236C knockdown. This is the big IF for my argument, but if you can't keep momentum afterwards, you presumably just wasted your round's active flow for an early 3k conversion (I havn't seen damage values) over say 1.5-2k? That's my problem with it right now. I can't answer to questions like how much damage would active flow give me if it activates on any starter at neutral. The idea is cool tho

It also places the opponent behind you. That's not actually bad, but would only benefit you directly if it puts them in the corner where momentum should be easier to maintain from said knockdown.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well active flow only adds a 1.1 damage multiplier, so I think that dealing 2-3k damage, drill meter and the massive burst regen boost is pretty damn advantageous in comparison. My biggest beef is that active flow's activation can't really be controlled without the use of EA because it's literally triggered by playing well, keeping up blockstrings ect. In a sense, Active flow triggering while you have Burst/OD up is not exactly bad news for the opponent because it prevents you from benefiting from the regen factor. Obviously it's not going to be the universal choice for all amane players or all situations, like you pointed out his EA causing a sideswap means it's not great if you have the opponent in the corner, but I think it's the control over when your active flow activates is pretty huge in controlling the flow of the match, regardless of if you can keep up the momentum the EA combo gave you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 1.1 modifier is pretty bad in comparison. I wouldn't lean towards saying AF can't be controlled just yet though. Sure you don't choose, but it's likely to say you could lean towards making it use of it on reaction. Say you do have your burst. AF is likely to activate during pressure/combos. Anything > ODC is good. If you are in a combo, the same combo as above is possible. Damage goes up to 4K for EA with AF. Less burst regen as a trade off. Otherwise, you get the same amount of drill meter if used in pressure with a some burst regen afterwards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A lot more Amane footage here, it's Arukemi so it's very good - http://www.twitch.tv/sasashima_lejaran/v/26720471

At the very beginning, it looks like the SMP on j236C (Gosei) is gone. So I /think/ that you will always get knockdown off of it no matter what, they won't be able to tech in the air while the 2nd is hitting.

3C > Ginga > 5B works in the corner. Not sure if it's worth doing over Raibu but we'll see. Also, apparently Ginga is a short duration starter which kinda sucks.

Ginga does not have SMP either! 5D doesn't have SMP either!! Is it just straight up gone? In the corner he can loop Ginga 5B 5D over and over to gain drill, it's amazing.

@2:30 - Arukemi ends a corner combo with Gosei and extremely meaty Ginga. I beat this will catch attempts to roll out too! This is WAY better than Hariken oki if so! with low drill level anyway. UPDATE: CONFIRMED! Not only will it beat roll, but if they don't tech at all they will get reset by Ginga. Gross.

It seems like 5B got a bit more pushback on it, that combined with the new 1C essentially revives his old 5B > 2C pressure.

Gekiren starter doesn't knock down, it causes a bounce and maybe can be followed up without meter????? At least on counter hit. Holy shit I hope it's true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Smp on specials exists, but only the proration is affected, so combos still work with multiple duplicate specials. All smp on normals and command normals are gone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Eshi said:

A lot more Amane footage here, it's Arukemi so it's very good - http://www.twitch.tv/sasashima_lejaran/v/26720471

At the very beginning, it looks like the SMP on j236C (Gosei) is gone. So I /think/ that you will always get knockdown off of it no matter what, they won't be able to tech in the air while the 2nd is hitting.

3C > Ginga > 5B works in the corner. Not sure if it's worth doing over Raibu but we'll see. Also, apparently Ginga is a short duration starter which kinda sucks.

Ginga does not have SMP either! 5D doesn't have SMP either!! Is it just straight up gone? In the corner he can loop Ginga 5B 5D over and over to gain drill, it's amazing.

@2:30 - Arukemi ends a corner combo with Gosei and extremely meaty Ginga. I beat this will catch attempts to roll out too! This is WAY better than Hariken oki if so! with low drill level anyway. UPDATE: CONFIRMED! Not only will it beat roll, but if they don't tech at all they will get reset by Ginga. Gross.

It seems like 5B got a bit more pushback on it, that combined with the new 1C essentially revives his old 5B > 2C pressure.

Gekiren starter doesn't knock down, it causes a bounce and maybe can be followed up without meter????? At least on counter hit. Holy shit I hope it's true.

I'm using a ipad but I cant watch the video... Is there any way to watch it from ipad? :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Checked the footage and I gotta say: his pressure doesn't look like cheese anymore. That's really huge because Amane's whole gameplan just got a lot more solid. I can't believe how much Ginga is doing for him, adding everything from combo tool to pressure tool all the way to zoning tool. I feel like his corner game got legit scary because we not only get a good way to pressure, but when we hit, we level drill gauge like crazy AND we keep a very nice oki. Also mashing 5a will -finally- blow up the opponent, so all of our tools kinda got better because Ginga lets them think twice.

About that CH Gekiren: It's definitely possible to follow up meterless, in the footage he did 2C w/o rapid too early(screenshot), which is why it whiffed. The second time he used rapid and did 2C waaay too early. This means scooping them with Gekiren becomes a lot more rewarding, which was really needed if you want to go for it in neutral/zoning.

I can see corner combos being even more optimized for better drill gain and/or better oki. looping Ginga and 5D already looks hella good tho. I'm wondering how much different combos will work on level 2 since Amane will be getting it a lot more. You can pretty much keep looping 5D and Ginga in the corner like on level 1, which is great. I couldn't really see if active flow does affect chip damage, but what I saw was that Amane gets active flow VERY easily from his pressure alone. At times I was thinking that it's a waste and he should've gone OD earlier to get quick burst gain, and I believe it might be a good gameplan to go early OD to get that drill level up slightly AND recharge burst by just pressuring. Or just go into an ez exceed confirm for free active flow like Eshi said.

Overall I think this might be the most 'complete' version of Amane yet, so yay for us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

5D gives fatal counter? I guess that allows extensive drill gain combos in the corner? 5D > ginga  > dash 5B > 5d > Ginga > dash 5B > 5D Oki?????  http://www.twitch.tv/sasashima_lejaran/v/26720471 @18:10 

Ginga looks just a tad underwhelming when used midscreen. I find it has similar problems as Hariken as in it pushes back the opponent or allows to push themselves to the corner. It's not bad, but I don't find it to fix his pressure like it does for the corner. So long as the midscreen priority is corner carry on hitconfirms, it shouldn't pose a problem. And all of that gameplan is exactly as it is in the current version :D

Looking at the recovery, it'd look like you can reversal super Ginga oki like you could against Hariken? But hitting blue beat doesn't sacrifice oki and you can still use hariken right away since you're not imposing yourself a cooldown for using it as oki. Free form <3

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×