Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Chaoschao222

Central Fiction Arcade Plot Discussion (spoilers)

Recommended Posts

4 minutes ago, JustaMaskedFreak said:

I guess Naoto's case is far from a Chronophantasma, since he is from a different possibility.

That only reinforces it. Those who should not exist, remember?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a question regarding Noel being the Master Unit's core/other self. Do we know when Noel came to possess the soul of the Original Prime Field Device? Like has Noel always been her "other self" or is this a recent development (between CP and CF)? The way I interpreted it is that at some point after the Master Unit emerged from the Nemesis Horizon (probably around the time Noel was swallowed by the berserk Ragna) the OPFD's soul jumped ship and took up residence in Noel's head, which prompted her to purge herself of the Godslayer powers. This would also explain how there could be two versions of Noel at the same time, Mu is the Noel we already know and Noel is the OPFD. Even if that's not the specific situation, it sounds to me like Noel hasn't literally been the OPFD since her creation because that would open a lot of plot holes.

  1. How could Mu as Kusanagi in CS work? She would be trying to find and destroy herself, which should be impossible thanks to her life link with Hazama at the time.
  2. How could the Master Unit take conscious action if its soul is in Noel and has no memories of being the OPFD? Noel didn't get the power of the Eye until the end of CT but the Master Unit was resetting the time loop the entire game due to specific events. Furthermore, why would the Master Unit need to get closer to the real world for its retcon war with Izanami and Takamagahara in CP if it was already in the real world and assuming the Master Unit itself was part of the Phenomenon Intervention, how would it perform these interventions at the same time as it vacant from the tool it uses in the first place?
  3. How would the timelines where Noel didn't exist (i.e. Wheel of Fortune and Slight Hope) fit into all of this? If the OPFD was already Noel then the situation in CT would more closely resemble Code: Embryo with Hinata unconsciously resetting the world around her, even if she died before the Embryo was fully smelted she would undo it with Phenomenon Intervention on instinct. However, for Noel's case she didn't exist at all in certain timelines meaning the OPFD would die with Noel in Ibukido and thus wouldn't be present to reset the world in 2199 after Take-Mikazuchi nuked Kagutsuchi.
  4. Why did Noel only become the Eye of the Azure at the end of CT if that is the key to her performing Phenomenon Intervention.
  5. Why did Noel shout at the Amaterasu Unit to not come any closer right before it emerged from the Nemesis Horizon in the CP True Ending. It sounds like she is shouting at someone which doesn't really fit with her being the OPFD and the Master Unit being empty.

Lastly, Amane's ending has him suggest sending the Master Unit back through the Nemesis Horizon (note to Chaoschao222: Zedar posted a summary of Amane's ending on page 73 because the first one was incomplete, it might be a good idea to add that to the first post). Rachel says that the world might disappear without Amaterasu's Observation if it is returned to the world of the gods while vacant.

Let me know if I'm missing something that proves me wrong but I think this is the current situation. It's not "Noel was the Original Prime Field all along" but rather "the current Noel in CF is the Original Prime Field because she used Noel/Mu's body as a vessel but Playable Noel separated her from the Godslayer powers as a result."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, MighhtyKombat said:

So basically Bullet's route is mostly the same old stuff she did in CP? Including the shock reveal we all knew?

The important part here is that we learn that Tager requested to never reveal the truth to Bullet, and Kokonoe obliged.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/2/2016 at 4:16 PM, Axiomatic said:

Thought I would  compile what we've seen Amane do since he's as vague as CT Rachel but seems more plot relevant as of late:

  • Seemingly adopts war orphans and gets them to work for him
  • Warned Rachel not to get too involved and laughed off her attempt at using Slave Red on him (Rachel CP Arcade)
  • Claimed to be after Carl since he was a pretty boy
  • Shook Bang's conviction by warning him about the growing sense of doubt he was facing
  • Trolled Bullet
  • Talked about how he thought Ragna was interesting
  • Said he didn't care about Carl anymore
  • Felt the disturbance in the force from Nine messing with things and confronted her
  • Told Naoto to GTFO of BB
  • Teased Azrael and got him super hyped
  • Plugged Takamagahara back in
  • Tried to observe Ragna, claiming it would prolong his life
  • Claims his goal is for people to stop messing with the world (ala The Boss from MGS3 or Philanthropy)
  • Knows an alternative to fixing things without murdering Noel

We know he knows more than almost everyone, but it wasn't until Act 1 against Nine that he stopped being like CT Rachel and became like CP Rachel where he can tell people stuff and do things (thats the handwave for why he is relevant though). He also has the yet unexplained title of Uzume, but like everyone with a Shinto Mythology name, it means he's god-tier in terms of plot power level just like the Sankishin, Kusanagi, Kushinada's lynchpin, etc.

Wonder if his interest in Carl in CP had something to do with his plans or not? Also curious how Takamagahara will factor into things.  

Maybe in CP he was trying to save Carl from his current fate in CF but now that he's fallen to it he stopped out of knowing it was too late?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, GunBlazer said:

The important part here is that we learn that Tager requested to never reveal the truth to Bullet, and Kokonoe obliged.

There's also the part where Bullet finds out the Tager is her Captain, that enables her subplot to move forward. Regrettably, Bullet is almost as important to the plot as Tao right now, but in Act I they were shown to work together, so there is a chance that she might join Kokonoe's side.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Volt said:

There's also the part where Bullet finds out the Tager is her Captain, that enables her subplot to move forward. Regrettably, Bullet is almost as important to the plot as Tao right now, but in Act I they were shown to work together, so there is a chance that she might join Kokonoe's side.

At least Tao has shown the "bros befores hoes" attitude now, being tasked to hold off Hazzy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, GunBlazer said:

At least Tao has shown the "bros befores hoes" attitude now, being tasked to hold off Hazzy.

More like "pals before meat buns" but same deal really ;). Still heartwarming nonetheless.

So here's a bit of a thought: when Amane offered to be Ragna's Observer, he stated it would be to slow down (but not stop) his corrosion into the Black Beast. Ragna refuses, of course and states he won't end up becoming one. I mean, would you trust an effeminate man that makes drills out of cloth? Still, something strikes me about Ragna's reassurance. He of all people ought to know just how dangerous it is for him to posses the Azure Grimoire. If his memories are as restored as they should be, then he should also be aware that he nearly blew it against Azrael. And yet, he refuses the extra security. Why? You could interpret this as Ragna's own pride or ego since he's not one to follow instructions, but I think this is bigger than that this time.

I hypothesize that he knows he isn't going to turn into a Black Beast because someone will prevent it. Now the natural answer would likely be Jin and/or Izayoi going all Clockwork Orange on him. But I doubt Ragna's plan involves him being beaten like a sandbag until he spills his inner contents. So here's my idea: he's planning to let Naoto's existence override his own. Naoto after all does not run the risk of turning into one and it allows for a more "peaceful" resolution to Ragna's story. Naoto also seemed to be searching for Ragna too in a similar vein to how Mu-12 is searching for Noel in Act III. Of course, that would cause problems if Amane's plan turns out to be that he wants Ragna to replace Amaterasu as BB's god but that is a big "IF". 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Luminos564 said:

More like "pals before meat buns" but same deal really ;). Still heartwarming nonetheless.

So here's a bit of a thought: when Amane offered to be Ragna's Observer, he stated it would be to slow down (but not stop) his corrosion into the Black Beast. Ragna refuses, of course and states he won't end up becoming one. I mean, would you trust an effeminate man that makes drills out of cloth? Still, something strikes me about Ragna's reassurance. He of all people ought to know just how dangerous it is for him to posses the Azure Grimoire. If his memories are as restored as they should be, then he should also be aware that he nearly blew it against Azrael. And yet, he refuses the extra security. Why? You could interpret this as Ragna's own pride or ego since he's not one to follow instructions, but I think this is bigger than that this time.

I hypothesize that he knows he isn't going to turn into a Black Beast because someone will prevent it. Now the natural answer would likely be Jin and/or Izayoi going all Clockwork Orange on him. But I doubt Ragna's plan involves him being beaten like a sandbag until he spills his inner contents. So here's my idea: he's planning to let Naoto's existence override his own. Naoto after all does not run the risk of turning into one and it allows for a more "peaceful" resolution to Ragna's story. Naoto also seemed to be searching for Ragna too in a similar vein to how Mu-12 is searching for Noel in Act III. Of course, that would cause problems if Amane's plan turns out to be that he wants Ragna to replace Amaterasu as BB's god but that is a big "IF". 

He doesn't really know about Naoto yet.

 

With that said, your theory is somewhat on the right track. Ragna knows he doesn't have much time left, yet he doesn't want to be Observed by Amane even if it gets him a little more time.

Let me add another Death Flag to Ragna's account. He doesn't care about his time left. I think that he either genuinely plans to sacrifice himself to protect Noel and the world or he plans to ditch the Azure Grimoire.

Since the first option is self-explanatory, let me focus on the second.

Ragna plans to protect Noel and the Master Unit by stopping all the entitled from killing Noel to get their wishes. That way, he hopes to save everyone else as well. (See Nu's Act III Ending.) If he succeeds, he could ditch the Azure Grimoire and stop fighting, effectively concluding his story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope CF's story recap is done in the form of a documentary narrated by a certified historian with doctorates in history and quantum physics, because there's a lot to explain this time around.

And now they're doing time travel AND alternate dimensions like from BioShock Infinite? smh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Time travel is always a pain when they put it in the story, even if the story is great, it makes your own mind blow when starting to understand it, see Bayonetta as an example of it, adding alternate dimensions doesn't make THAT worse, but stills confusing, making you guess what is different between one dimension and another one.

Also, even if Mori explains everything in story mode and all, it will be really confusing to understand some important events that is going on by now in CF.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Volt said:

There's also the part where Bullet finds out the Tager is her Captain, that enables her subplot to move forward. Regrettably, Bullet is almost as important to the plot as Tao right now, but in Act I they were shown to work together, so there is a chance that she might join Kokonoe's side.

Sad to say I never really understood why we even needed Bullet in the first place, her story is so low stakes it wouldn't change anything if she were just written off. I guess Mori just needed to fill his hot girl in short shorts quota in CP. Still, this is just everything about her I've seen so far, perhaps story mode will have her do something that is essential to the heroes but I doubt it. A shame cause when I first saw her I thought she was gonna be a cool character with an intriguing story.

Now take Azreal and Amane for instance, they already have leaps and bounds of story importance in CF.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, MaximusMurkimus said:

Is it reasonable to say Naoto is a CP as well? He's from a timeline/dimension where he's not supposed to exist and his existence in the BB world is freaking everyone out as a result.

I, too, came to the same conclusion a few months back. Although he is probably the most extreme case of a CP to ever be shown thus far, given what was revealed about him and his origins.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Volt said:

He doesn't really know about Naoto yet.

That's dependant on the arcade, which for can all be simultaneously canon and not-canon all at once. For the purposes, let's assume that hypothetically Ragna is aware of him. If not by name, then at least by feel since I imagine if my existence was being overwritten by someone else, I'd probably have a gut feeling that something is happening.

2 hours ago, Volt said:

Since the first option is self-explanatory, let me focus on the second.

Ragna plans to protect Noel and the Master Unit by stopping all the entitled from killing Noel to get their wishes. That way, he hopes to save everyone else as well. (See Nu's Act III Ending.) If he succeeds, he could ditch the Azure Grimoire and stop fighting, effectively concluding his story.

Except you forgot one teeny-tiny detail: the Azure Grimoire is more or less welded to him and even if his own intentions are good, the Azure Grimoire is still a constant threat to him and the rest of the world around him. It is still spreading and slowly (or perhaps quicker now) corroding him into something else. And it's not like you can just lop it off either since Haku-men would have already done so. It makes no difference if he continues to fight or not, that arm of his will continue to function and cause problems. To stop Ragna from dying, one needs to figure out a way to stop it permanently.

One solution we've already seen: just have Celica stick to him like glue. Though this is flawed since:

a: it renders the arm and one of his eyes useless
b: Celica herself does not have that much time left either

My solution is flawed as well since it would overwrite Ragna with Naoto and from a narrative perspective, that's sure to piss off Ragna's fans. Plus, there's that whole business of Haku-men sensing the "Dark One" within Naoto's arm so there's that potential detail unless he's mistaken and simply sensing something that is "like" the Dark One.

I suppose if Amane does want to make Ragna into a god for BB's world, then he could effectively be rendered immortal enough to control and nullify the corrosion. Of course, we have no real proof that he's Amane's pick for godhood beyond their brief meetings and Amane's growing interest in him.

One thing I do not comprehend though is how Jin/Haku-men and possibly Tsubaki figure that killing Ragna eliminates the threat of the Azure Grimoire? We know that Haku-men decapitated him back at the conclusion of the Dark War and the body still retained enough power to graft itself onto present-Ragna and start the cycle over again. What's to stop someone like Hazama or Terumi from grabbing the appendage, sticking it on a random street urchin and watch them go wild?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Ogiga99 said:

I have a question regarding Noel being the Master Unit's core/other self. Do we know when Noel came to possess the soul of the Original Prime Field Device? Like has Noel always been her "other self" or is this a recent development (between CP and CF)? The way I interpreted it is that at some point after the Master Unit emerged from the Nemesis Horizon (probably around the time Noel was swallowed by the berserk Ragna) the OPFD's soul jumped ship and took up residence in Noel's head, which prompted her to purge herself of the Godslayer powers. This would also explain how there could be two versions of Noel at the same time, Mu is the Noel we already know and Noel is the OPFD. Even if that's not the specific situation, it sounds to me like Noel hasn't literally been the OPFD since her creation because that would open a lot of plot holes.

  1. How could Mu as Kusanagi in CS work? She would be trying to find and destroy herself, which should be impossible thanks to her life link with Hazama at the time.
  2. How could the Master Unit take conscious action if its soul is in Noel and has no memories of being the OPFD? Noel didn't get the power of the Eye until the end of CT but the Master Unit was resetting the time loop the entire game due to specific events. Furthermore, why would the Master Unit need to get closer to the real world for its retcon war with Izanami and Takamagahara in CP if it was already in the real world and assuming the Master Unit itself was part of the Phenomenon Intervention, how would it perform these interventions at the same time as it vacant from the tool it uses in the first place?
  3. How would the timelines where Noel didn't exist (i.e. Wheel of Fortune and Slight Hope) fit into all of this? If the OPFD was already Noel then the situation in CT would more closely resemble Code: Embryo with Hinata unconsciously resetting the world around her, even if she died before the Embryo was fully smelted she would undo it with Phenomenon Intervention on instinct. However, for Noel's case she didn't exist at all in certain timelines meaning the OPFD would die with Noel in Ibukido and thus wouldn't be present to reset the world in 2199 after Take-Mikazuchi nuked Kagutsuchi.
  4. Why did Noel only become the Eye of the Azure at the end of CT if that is the key to her performing Phenomenon Intervention.
  5. Why did Noel shout at the Amaterasu Unit to not come any closer right before it emerged from the Nemesis Horizon in the CP True Ending. It sounds like she is shouting at someone which doesn't really fit with her being the OPFD and the Master Unit being empty.

Lastly, Amane's ending has him suggest sending the Master Unit back through the Nemesis Horizon (note to Chaoschao222: Zedar posted a summary of Amane's ending on page 73 because the first one was incomplete, it might be a good idea to add that to the first post). Rachel says that the world might disappear without Amaterasu's Observation if it is returned to the world of the gods while vacant.

Let me know if I'm missing something that proves me wrong but I think this is the current situation. It's not "Noel was the Original Prime Field all along" but rather "the current Noel in CF is the Original Prime Field because she used Noel/Mu's body as a vessel but Playable Noel separated her from the Godslayer powers as a result."

SHIT LOADS OF TEXT BELOW

 

I'm with you on the whole Noel=Mu-12 body as a vessel for OPFD Ogiga99. Doesn't make much sense otherwise to me. In b4 Mori drops another bomb on us... 

 

1.) From my understanding, it seems that Noel may have hijacked Mu-12 on the Burning Fields of Ibukido at the start of CT since it fits from a narrative point of view and would be the first opportunity that Mu-12 was fully smelted (I don't know if she was subjected to the same inhumane treatment Lamb-chops did before she was fully smelted). Basically Mu-12 wasn't finished until then (at least in the BB timeline we've been in for most of the games) so she was an incomplete vessel. 

 

2.) Can a body not function even when you're knocked out? Perhaps a bit tart, but when you have god-level power, I don't see it being any different than how the Holy Trinity works in Christian dogma. She could easily pull a Jin/Hakumen and have two of her consciousness occupy the same world if need be. Maybe a better example is how you create a character in a game, yet you in the real world is still functioning as well.  

 

3.) I haven't experienced Wheel of Fortune in its entirety, but the fact that the world did work without self-insert/playable Noel suggests it was stable for the most part. Not sure how Amatarasu is being resurrected when she dies in the story though. She pulling a MK9 Raiden by transferring her consciousness to older versions of herself before she died and trying again (ala reloading your save file after an impossible boss battle where you the player still remember the encounter but your avatar resets to old stats/loadouts/etc)? 

In terms of Rachel's story regarding death of OPFD, no matter what "the Girl" did the Monster kept getting killed by the Hero. There is still some confusion regarding how Noel's feelings toward Ragna are a result of Mu-12's residual Saya memories or if there is some substantial connection between "the Girl" and Ragna. If I had to guess, it seems that since Rachel stated the Master Unit was the Monster, then the Hero would have to be whatever eventually kills her. It seems she resets things though she is still alive since she is obviously still around despite the story suggesting otherwise. I disagree with you on the fact No Noel=OPFD dies though Ogiga99, since she could still be chilling in the Boundary without Noel present. Rachel says the world ends when Amatarasu dies, so there couldn't be a timeline where she wasn't active. Context suggests every time she dies though, she is forced to undergo her own Ground Hog Day/CT timeloops trying to change things. 

 

4.) No clue. My guess is maybe Amatarasu was hijacking Mu-12 to form Noel on a test basis and when she actually managed to break the CT timeloops, Amatarasu decided to make the possession permament. In a gaming analogy, Amatarasu got passed the really hard part by using a create-a-character and immediately saved over her profile data? Mori really needs to elaborate on this debacle though, since I have so many questions. Couldn't Amatarasu just tweak things to make it so the host body Mu-12 survives Ibukido though? It seems to be the case from what we saw in Slight Hope (Makoto CS).

 

5.) Probably talking out my own ass here, but...

In context, I felt the shouting was appropriate since I equate "Successor to the Azure" as Amatarasu 2.0. Thus, them being in the same world trigger a Highlander scenario were one's existence supercedes the other. Sort of like Naoto and Ragna now, except Noel is aware of the effect just like how Rachel notices how Naoto's existence is pushing Ragna's out

 Now that Noel is the Master Unit's core though, my guess is on their consciousness will sublimate into one ala how Jin replaced Embryo Jin in CF (still not sure how it doesn't work for Haku and Jin though, but it might be because both have active Power of Order? That shit broke).

The only way to rectify the situation though, was for Noel to split Noel from her host Mu-12 but the damage had already been done; Mu-12 the vessel and playable Noel Vermillion had effectively lived the same life and now that their fates were severed from each other, there is an inconsistency of events just like in the Time of Determination in the Phase Shift timeline shenanigans. Basically, Mu-12 was forced to bear the persona of Kusanagi since that was all she was really created for, but her Noel memories lead to the existential crisis she is facing now. This further reinforces the status of Noel Vermillion being a Chronophantasma or a Phantom of Time since Mu-12's fate was drastically altered by being possessed by Amatarasu/Master Unit/Noel. 

Its just, we can't have two Noel's running around, so the natural order of the world forced that persona on her since there wasn't any others left in the toybox; the world seemed to accept that Ragna could be a fixed point in Phase Shift for whatever god awful reason, so the world seems to fine with anything so long as it fixes big issues, often taking the path of least resistance (which is true of other things in the real world though). Similar narrative devices occur in comic books where *insert popular comicbook hero/villain here* dies and a seemingly new character takes up the mantle no matter how appropriate it may or may not be.  

We saw in CF how Master Unit Noel (girl in the blue smock) was huddled and rejected Mu-12 trying to self-identify with her or resublimate. With the whole Gate to the Gods thing, Master Unit Noel is trying to prevent something by forcing the split to be permament that I'm still unsure of the exact nature of. Problem is Mu-12 is faced with experiencing the fates she was supposed to have of being a mindless killing machine out to destroy the world, effectively snapping her sanity to the point she can't perceive genuine sincerity.

Real talk, Mu-12 is going through some shit; can't even be "yourself" or the self you though you were because God was like "Nah brah, we get Bad End if that happens. How bout being the anti-Christ that everyone hates?". 

 

19 minutes ago, Luminos564 said:

One solution we've already seen: just have Celica stick to him like glue. Though this is flawed since:

a: it renders the arm and one of his eyes useless
b: Celica herself does not have that much time left either

My solution is flawed as well since it would overwrite Ragna with Naoto and from a narrative perspective, that's sure to piss off Ragna's fans. Plus, there's that whole business of Haku-men sensing the "Dark One" within Naoto's arm so there's that potential detail unless he's mistaken and simply sensing something that is "like" the Dark One.

Didn't the Celica-canceller/synchronization thing get finished so now she no longer cripples him? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Axiomatic said:

Didn't the Celica-canceller/synchronization thing get finished so now she no longer cripples him? 

The canceller didn't get finished. IIRC, Kokonoe made some adjustments in Minerva to stop Celica's seithr canceller during Take-Mikazuchi fight in CP, which means she may "turn off" Ragna's arm and eye again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, JustaMaskedFreak said:

The canceller didn't get finished. IIRC, Kokonoe made some adjustments in Minerva to stop Celica's seithr canceller during Take-Mikazuchi fight in CP, which means she may "turn off" Ragna's arm and eye again.

Did Lambda take the IDEA Engine from Rags after coming back?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, kylehyde said:

Sad to say I never really understood why we even needed Bullet in the first place, her story is so low stakes it wouldn't change anything if she were just written off. I guess Mori just needed to fill his hot girl in short shorts quota in CP. Still, this is just everything about her I've seen so far, perhaps story mode will have her do something that is essential to the heroes but I doubt it. A shame cause when I first saw her I thought she was gonna be a cool character with an intriguing story.

It seems to me that she is mainly there as a tool to further develop Tager's story (and Sector Seven's as a whole to a lesser degree). Basically, Tager's past and his connection to the Ikaruga Civil War (which still seems to be hiding some potentially important events) required a "key" in order to be brought to the forefront since Tager has no memories of it and Kokonoe had no intention of talking about it. Admittedly on its own this is probably too small a role to justify her character and it could be argued that Azrael could have served the same purpose due to his connection to Tager's past. Ultimately, like Tao (and I can potentially see Hibiki being like this too in the console version), Bullet is a character that focuses more on her relationship with others and how she influences those characters as opposed to someone who progresses the plot. Personally, I think it's okay to have a few characters like that who don't have to be main plot movers but instead fill out the world.

By the way, am I the only who finds it funny that despite appearing to be the most ridiculously out of place and pointless character of the three initially revealed for Chrono Phantasma, Amane turned out to be by far the most important character introduced in that entire game and is now one of the higher, if not the highest, characters on the "knowing what the hell is actually going on in this series" scale?

45 minutes ago, Luminos564 said:

One thing I do not comprehend though is how Jin/Haku-men and possibly Tsubaki figure that killing Ragna eliminates the threat of the Azure Grimoire? We know that Haku-men decapitated him back at the conclusion of the Dark War and the body still retained enough power to graft itself onto present-Ragna and start the cycle over again. What's to stop someone like Hazama or Terumi from grabbing the appendage, sticking it on a random street urchin and watch them go wild?

They're not necessarily trying to get rid of the threat of the Azure Grimoire, they're trying to get rid of the threat of the Black Beast. Even if they can't destroy it they are perfectly capable of sealing it away which will prevent it from becoming another Black Beast. The Black Beast's remains were pretty damn safe in Celica's church, being within range of the effect of Celica's seithr suppression and hidden behind a nigh-impenetrable barrier (which was only broken because Terumi waited for Saya to get too close to the barrier, destroyed her mind and gave her Yukianesa which would slowly erode the barrier from inside, and even then he still had to nearly kill himself by Observing himself). Additionally it might be possible that because of the Azure Grimoire's relationship to Ragna (namely it being his decapitated corpse) it wouldn't work for or attach to anyone else, making it powerless. It's also possible that it couldn't be destroyed in the form of the Black Beast's remains but for some reason when it is Ragna's right arm it is more susceptible to being destroyed. Also Hazama and Terumi don't even need to grab Ragna's arm. They have their own Azure Grimoires and Terumi is capable of making more of them.

22 minutes ago, JustaMaskedFreak said:

The canceller didn't get finished. IIRC, Kokonoe made some adjustments in Minerva to stop Celica's seithr canceller during Take-Mikazuchi fight in CP, which means she may "turn off" Ragna's arm and eye again.

Actually the Noise Canceller in Ragna's left arm fully completed it's analysis of Celica (which was why Kokonoe tricked him into being around her all the time) which completely negated Celica's effect. What you're talking about with Minerva and Celica was Kokonoe removing Celica's limiter during the Take-Mikazuchi fight, which put her seithr suppression ability into overdrive. However, Kokonoe immediately put the limiter back on once Kushinada's Lynchpin was activated because removing the limiter rapidly decreased Celica's remaining time to the point where she would disappear without it in just 10 minutes. Heck even without her limiter Celica probably couldn't stop the Noise Canceller because it let Ragna use his Azure Grimoire even after Kushinada's Lynchpin eliminated all the seithr. Besides it's a moot point now since their is no seithr inside the Embryo and people can use Ars Magus without it if they are an Entitled so Celica's ability is now useless (the Noise Canceller is also most likely why Ragna can still use Ars Magus despite not being an Entitled).

20 minutes ago, GunBlazer said:

Did Lambda take the IDEA Engine from Rags after coming back?

No. Ragna's Idea Engine is fused with the Azure Grimoire so there is way Lambda could take it back and the Embryo would have no reason to do so when Lambda returns. It's unclear how exactly Lambda got her own Murakumo and such (besides "the Embryo did it" when she regained a body) but that would also mean she got an Idea Engine of her own on revival (or perhaps Kokonoe made a new one for her, after all she made one for Tager as well). Also, while it's from gameplay and therefore not necessarily canon, Ragna's Overdrive is still Blood Kain Idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JustaMaskedFreak said:

Time travel is always a pain when they put it in the story, even if the story is great, it makes your own mind blow when starting to understand it, see Bayonetta as an example of it, adding alternate dimensions doesn't make THAT worse, but stills confusing, making you guess what is different between one dimension and another one.

Also, even if Mori explains everything in story mode and all, it will be really confusing to understand some important events that is going on by now in CF.

Time travel as a whole isn't particularly hard to tell well. Terminator, Fire Emblem Awakening, BioShock Infinite. It's when the writer tries to overcomplicate things and throw in multiple resets and alternate realties that things become a clusterfuck, in the case of BlazBlue.

Hell, it was doing so good up until CP, even. Chronophantasmas themselves make things ridiculous because they break the general rules of "either you're here or there", same thing with Phenomena Interventions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wild thought, could Mu-12 have been created in response to Izanami becoming her own conscience? If that's indeed the "nightmare memory" of Amaterasu, maybe Mu-12 was a way to counter any damage she may have done, being Godslayer and all. Almost like writing a program to delete a virus you've accidentally released onto your PC. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, MaximusMurkimus said:

Time travel as a whole isn't particularly hard to tell well. Terminator, Fire Emblem Awakening, BioShock Infinite. It's when the writer tries to overcomplicate things and throw in multiple resets and alternate realties that things become a clusterfuck, in the case of BlazBlue.

Hell, it was doing so good up until CP, even. Chronophantasmas themselves make things ridiculous because they break the general rules of "either you're here or there", same thing with Phenomena Interventions.

Yeah, but we know those "laws" of time travelling that always says: never mess with the past. True that time travel isn't that hard in the cases you mentioned, but sometimes it gets annoying when it is a huge mix of "WTF" going on your own mind. These examples you mentioned are okay because they are very straight-foward about objectives and what happens next, or why people from the future/past are there.

Indeed Blazblue is really complicated because Mori mixed too much those things that makes hard to tell what is going on out there. Honestly BB could be way more straight-foward if Mori didn't add Naoto and Es, and probably Celica, since the former one makes we wonder why he is here or his role, which won't be like "let me get this azure and get out of here." We knows Mori has some other things up on his sleeve.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Ogiga99 said:

They're not necessarily trying to get rid of the threat of the Azure Grimoire, they're trying to get rid of the threat of the Black Beast. Even if they can't destroy it they are perfectly capable of sealing it away which will prevent it from becoming another Black Beast. The Black Beast's remains were pretty damn safe in Celica's church, being within range of the effect of Celica's seithr suppression and hidden behind a nigh-impenetrable barrier (which was only broken because Terumi waited for Saya to get too close to the barrier, destroyed her mind and gave her Yukianesa which would slowly erode the barrier from inside, and even then he still had to nearly kill himself by Observing himself). Additionally it might be possible that because of the Azure Grimoire's relationship to Ragna (namely it being his decapitated corpse) it wouldn't work for or attach to anyone else, making it powerless. It's also possible that it couldn't be destroyed in the form of the Black Beast's remains but for some reason when it is Ragna's right arm it is more susceptible to being destroyed. Also Hazama and Terumi don't even need to grab Ragna's arm. They have their own Azure Grimoires and Terumi is capable of making more of them.

Except they don't have either option now. Celica (the original one) is gone and it's doubtful Kokonoe can keep on bringing in more clones (Chronophantasmas) of her just to keep it in check. Even the current one is living on very borrowed time. I don't know who made the barrier though, but if fiction has taught me anything it's that barriers/walls/seals/etc. never remain up forever. Y'know, mortality and flaws applied to anything we make and all that junk. Whether or not the likes of Jin and Haku-men wish to admit it, sealing away the Azure Grimoire is not a permanent solution and ergo, killing Ragna doesn't eliminate the threat entirely (only momentarily). We can only assume the arm works with him because so far he has always been the one and only recipient. But no evidence suggests he is the only one that is compatible with it.

Plus you know the likes of Terumi and Relius are a nasty bunch. Who's to say they cannot reconfigure the thing for their purpose? Kokonoe certainly seems to be able to tinker with it after it absorbed the IDEA engine, so what's stopping either of them?

But, I think I've dwelled on this long enough. Honestly, with all the reveals happening it's getting to be a bit exhausting trying to keep up. So I'll leave this be for now. If you got more to add though, that's still very much appreciated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You guys are forgetting that Takamagahara was the one doing the loops. Amaterasu was only observing and trying to find a way to break them. When Mu-12 survived and Noel came into existence, she managed to interrupt the loop via saving Ragna from falling into the Cauldron. Then she Awakened as Successor to the Azure/Eye of the Azure.

In CS, after being utterly corrupted and broken by Hazama/Terumi, she tried to go and kill Amaterasu. However, we didn't knew and neither did she, that it was a suicide mission. Also, since she was completely insane, I don't think we can really blame her .

In CP, when she screamed for Amaterasu to not get any closer, she was literally yelling at the Master Unit, as in a separate body, to not fall into a trap. Also she didn't knew about her relation to the Master Unit. As far as anyone knew, she was only the Eye. And regarding the tug of war between Amaterasu and Takamagahara, instead of observing, Amaterasu was actively disrupting Izanami's Phenomena Interventions and throwing out some of her own.

 

Celica doesn't interfere with Ragna's Azure Grimoire because Kokonoe synchronized Ragna and Celica's IDEA Engines. Also, everything Kokonoe gets to mod winds up with an IDEA Engine. Lambda and Tager to a lesser extent are not exceptions. Minera only amps up Celica's Seithr Absorption powers.

 

I still think Ragna will find a way to fix everything before his Azure Grimoire corrupts him fully. I know the trend was broken in CP, but I'm going out on a limb and say that Ragna's gonna lose his arm. Again. It's not like Kokonoe can't get him another one.

 

With all of that said... Did Amaterasu slip a Phenomena Intervention to save Mu from getting nuked and we only found out now?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×