Central Fiction Arcade Plot Discussion (spoilers)

[GunBlazer]

Just now, FA-ST said:

Not really important, but:

Is Clavis talking about Naoto here? Did Mori actually plan THIS far ahead?!

It could be, but this is Mori we're talking about.

Naoto is not a jerkass, though.

[Ogiga99]

24 minutes ago, FA-ST said:

Not really important, but:

Is Clavis talking about Naoto here? Did Mori actually plan THIS far ahead?!

That would be pretty cool but also strange. Why would Clavis talk fondly about someone he killed?

[Volt]

3 hours ago, FA-ST said:

Not really important, but:

Is Clavis talking about Naoto here? Did Mori actually plan THIS far ahead?!

Could be Ragna too if Clavis is lying to Jin so he doesn't get in Niisan mode. But we've seen Mori pull the craziest pieces of foreshadowing if we look back.

For example. pretty much every single scene with Noel in CT, especially the Story Opening (Shows Noel's Lux Sanctus and hints she's not human) and her mirror scene (I think it's her arcade ending, shows that mirror Nu uses to make Noel observe her as the Sucessor to the Azure.)

[Ogiga99]

20 minutes ago, Volt said:

Could be Ragna too if Clavis is lying to Jin so he doesn't get in Niisan mode. But we've seen Mori pull the craziest pieces of foreshadowing if we look back.

For example. pretty much every single scene with Noel in CT, especially the Story Opening (Shows Noel's Lux Sanctus and hints she's not human) and her mirror scene (I think it's her arcade ending, shows that mirror Nu uses to make Noel observe her as the Sucessor to the Azure.)

Can't be Ragna. Clavis met Jin first. Ragna arrived in 2106 and Jin was already Hakumen at the time.

[Volt]

2 minutes ago, Ogiga99 said:

Can't be Ragna. Clavis met Jin first. Ragna arrived in 2106 and Jin was already Hakumen at the time.

Bleep. I always forget the Phase Shift Timeline. So yeah. It was Naoto.

[deaddestspike]

Clavis tells Ragna to live true to his heart as well. Given his line about the repeating dream and Phase 0 coming out only two years before, I think it is intended to be Ragna. He could just retain his memories across time.

[Ogiga99]

21 minutes ago, deaddestspike said:

Clavis tells Ragna to live true to his heart as well. Given his line about the repeating dream and Phase 0 coming out before Ragna, I think it is intended to be Ragna. He could just retain his memories across time.

After checking, you are correct that he says it to both Ragna and Jin. However, Clavis has never been confirmed to be an Observer. In fact I would go so far as to say that it is impossible for him to be an Observer since he dies in each time loop. An Observer is a constant in the world who's state of being is unchanged by Phenomenon Intervention so if an Observer dies once they stay dead even if time is reset. Clavis Furthermore the Phase Shift novels depicts the events of the first timeline (since it is the exact same Ragna and Celica throughout) so Clavis still told that to Jin before he ever could have met Ragna. I also don't think it really matters that Phase 0 came out first because most of the Phase Shift series would have been planned out them and Mori would know the chronology of these events easily enough to not mix them up.

[deaddestspike]

What I meant about Phase Shift 2 coming out only two years after Phase 0 is more about how I think it's just a callback. Readers see this line, maybe flip through Phase 0 again and go, "Oh, that's neat." Clavis had only finished talking about the world being a repeating dream of God's, and then he says that he can't remember the name of that person because he's now a part of the repeating dream. That says to me that at some point he wasn't, but now he is. With that in mind, I find it much more probable he's talking about Jin's brother than Naoto, if Naoto was even planned at that time.

[Volt]

5 minutes ago, Ogiga99 said:

After checking, you are correct that he says it to both Ragna and Jin. However, Clavis has never been confirmed to be an Observer. In fact I would go so far as to say that it is impossible for him to be an Observer since he dies in each time loop. An Observer is a constant in the world who's state of being is unchanged by Phenomenon Intervention so if an Observer dies once they stay dead even if time is reset. Clavis Furthermore the Phase Shift novels depicts the events of the first timeline (since it is the exact same Ragna and Celica throughout) so Clavis still told that to Jin before he ever could have met Ragna. I also don't think it really matters that Phase 0 came out first because most of the Phase Shift series would have been planned out them and Mori would know the chronology of these events easily enough to not mix them up.

Not really. Clavis decayed really fast and died afterwards. He also interfered with the world doing stuff like handing Jin the Susano'o unit and sealing Terumi. Sounds familiar? Must run in the family. He was an Observer and messed up just like Rachel and died as a result. He was also hinted to be an observer by multiple people, including himself in Phase 0.

[Ogiga99]

21 minutes ago, Volt said:

Not really. Clavis decayed really fast and died afterwards. He also interfered with the world doing stuff like handing Jin the Susano'o unit and sealing Terumi. Sounds familiar? Must run in the family. He was an Observer and messed up just like Rachel and died as a result. He was also hinted to be an observer by multiple people, including himself in Phase 0.

Considering how Clavis went from young looking with an immeasurable life force to decrepit old man between the events of Bloodedge Experience and Phase Shift, the events you mentioned clearly were not the cause of his decay. He is never directly hinted at being an Observer in Phase 0, just that he is "observing the world" (as in looking at the events in it). And again the problem is that if he was an Observer and died, he could not have been revived in the subsequent time loops. In fact this would hint that Rachel being unable to interfere in the world is connected to her Vampire heritage as opposed to being an Observer/Onlooker since Amane is also interfering but with no consequences. Remember Izanami's last line to Rachel from the Act 3 trailer, "you human who was once an Observer." If Rachel does indeed become human, wouldn't that suggest she is losing her Vampire powers from her interfering and thus the two are in some way linked? Rachel is someone who loses power and eventually dies if she intervenes in the world but an Onlooker is just someone who is not supposed to intervene in the world, therefore the situation would be the opposite. Rachel became an Onlooker because she cannot act as opposed to not being able to act because she is an Onlooker.

[Volt]

4 hours ago, Ogiga99 said:

Considering how Clavis went from young looking with an immeasurable life force to decrepit old man between the events of Bloodedge Experience and Phase Shift, the events you mentioned clearly were not the cause of his decay. He is never directly hinted at being an Observer in Phase 0, just that he is "observing the world" (as in looking at the events in it). And again the problem is that if he was an Observer and died, he could not have been revived in the subsequent time loops. In fact this would hint that Rachel being unable to interfere in the world is connected to her Vampire heritage as opposed to being an Observer/Onlooker since Amane is also interfering but with no consequences. Remember Izanami's last line to Rachel from the Act 3 trailer, "you human who was once an Observer." If Rachel does indeed become human, wouldn't that suggest she is losing her Vampire powers from her interfering and thus the two are in some way linked? Rachel is someone who loses power and eventually dies if she intervenes in the world but an Onlooker is just someone who is not supposed to intervene in the world, therefore the situation would be the opposite. Rachel became an Onlooker because she cannot act as opposed to not being able to act because she is an Onlooker.

The events I mentioned were examples of times Clavis intervened, not the events that led to his downfall.

And why exactly couldn't Clavis be "reborn" in another loop? The Rachel from the Phase Shift Novels is younger than CT Rachel, meaning Rachel wasn't just sent to the beginning of the timeline when the loop reseted.

Your theory might hold some merit though. I can't think of anything that reinforces or shots it down, but where does Raquel fit in it?

[Ogiga99]

21 minutes ago, Volt said:

The events I mentioned were examples of times Clavis intervened, not the events that led to his downfall.

And why exactly couldn't Clavis be "reborn" in another loop? The Rachel from the Phase Shift Novels is younger than CT Rachel, meaning Rachel wasn't just sent to the beginning of the timeline when the loop reseted.

Your theory might hold some merit though. I can't think of anything that reinforces or shots it down, but where does Raquel fit in it?

The Phase Shift novels only show the events of the first timeline. Not only is Rachel younger looking, she hasn't met Ragna yet in Phase 0. The time loop is weird when it comes to the events of the Dark War because for all intents and purposes it doesn't seem to be truly "part" of the loop since the events are fixed and only "happen" once. Because of the Time for Decision, Ragna went back to Phase 0 and was part of the Dark War only once from his perspective, but those events became fact in every single time loop. So the question is did Rachel really go back and experience those events where she could not have known Ragna and then have to fall into a coma for 50 years to gain knowledge she should already have or does she only watch those events from outside before only interacting in the events after she woke up (namely when she begins to stalk Ragna)? Furthermore does Terumi get sealed by Clavis, put under Mind Eater, and get tricked by Jubei and Hakumen into being sealed in the Boundary more than 700 times and thus leave just as many Kazuma's in the Boundary or did he only experience that once? Heck, since we only see the first timeline, if she did experience the Dark War each time do we know if Rachel looked as young as she did in Phase 0 in every other loop or did she retain her older appearance? But whether the events only "happened" once or 1000 times doesn't matter for Clavis. If they happened once, regardless of Clavis's Onlooker status he wouldn't be able to remember meeting Ragna because he had never done so before since he met Jin first and told him that line the very first time they met. And if the events happened again in each time loop, than Clavis cannot be an Onlooker because Onlookers exist to watch the world and are immune to Phenomenon Intervention because of it (hence why Rachel experienced all the time loops). Turning back time is done through Phenomenon Intervention, changing it so all of the events after a certain point "did not happen." Since Clavis would be immune to this change as an Onlooker, if he died he would stay dead because he would exist outside of the normal flow of the world. Remember how in CP after Terumi used Takamagahara to retcon away Ragna's fight with Nu, Ragna still retained the injuries because the Azure Grimoire retained the memory of them causing "scarring of the soul." This is the same situation up to 11.

I have no idea what to think about Raquel because we don't know enough about her but she seems to be different from the other Alucards. Clavis is an Illusionary Creature made from a wish on the Azure and Rachel is supposedly a daughter he "gave birth to" in some way. However, Raquel was the manifestation of an Embryo he found, without him directly playing a part in her birth. She has a normal, if extremely high, life force value unlike Clavis and Rachel, who have immeasurable and no number respectively. The effects of Raquel biting Naoto and Rachel biting Ragna in the first timeline are completely different as well so she might be something completely different that doesn't follow the same rules as the others.

[Hero19]

I still wonder what happen to Raquel in the BB universe.  Since Naoto losing his limbs and getting replacements by Relius is still canon in the BB universe then him being saved by Raquel should still have happen as well. Which, brings to question what was Raquel fate after Naoto died in BB. Since the Raquel we see in CF is BEE Raquel and not BB Raquel.

[Tokkan]

7 hours ago, Ogiga99 said:

Remember how in CP after Terumi used Takamagahara to retcon away Ragna's fight with Nu, Ragna still retained the injuries because the Azure Grimoire retained the memory of them causing "scarring of the soul." 

I'd just like to point out, Terumi did not use Takamagahara to retcon anything. He used Takamagahara to stop Ragna from being able to activate the Azure Grimoire, so Nu could keep attacking him unhindered. The retcon/reset was done by the Master Unit, and the reason Terumi had Ragna fighting Nu and kept him from activating BlazBlue was to force the Master Unit to intervene, causing it to come closer to the world so that the Nemesis Horizon could be opened and the Master Unit could be brought into the world.

[Ogiga99]

12 hours ago, Hero19 said:

I still wonder what happen to Raquel in the BB universe.  Since Naoto losing his limbs and getting replacements by Relius is still canon in the BB universe then him being saved by Raquel should still have happen as well. Which, brings to question what was Raquel fate after Naoto died in BB. Since the Raquel we see in CF is BEE Raquel and not BB Raquel.

If Naoto died then Raquel must have died as well. After being bitten, Naoto is kept alive by Raquel's life force. Throughout BE he constantly survives lethal attacks because he is able to regenerate at the cost of Raquel's life force. Unless their connection was somehow severed, killing him would only be possible if he stole all of Raquel's life force first. Something had to have happened to make Clavis kill Naoto and Raquel's death would be a logical reason for that. Also consider the theory that Raquel somehow became Rachel or was connected in some way to Rachel's birth (and perhaps whatever Clavis did to accomplish this, or create Rachel at all, is what made him decay so quickly). Or maybe all of this has some connection to Mystery Guy who saved Raquel from Boundary-induced insanity and gave Naoto shadow limbs. It could also be the result of something happening to Naoto regarding him having the power of "The Dark One" (and therefore the Black Beast) in his right arm and since that arm was made of Raquel's blood, she might be related to that as well.

That's all I've got. If anyone else has another explanation, I'm all ears.

[Calamitus]

If anyone is still interested, Sourenga uploaded translated Act3 videos on his channel.

[Yoshirocks92]

20 minutes ago, Calamitus said:

If anyone is still interested, Sourenga uploaded translated Act3 videos on his channel.

Well I was able to see Noel's Act III ending a lot more clearer than what I saw on YouTube but now I just wished that Mu-12's Act III ending was there as well. Also Nu just went full on yandere mode with getting more obsessed with killing Noel. 

[Sourenga]

50 minutes ago, Yoshirocks92 said:

now I just wished that Mu-12's Act III ending was there as well. 

I have that arcade mode recorded and will upload it once its subbed and ready. 

[Yoshirocks92]

7 hours ago, Sourenga said:

I have that arcade mode recorded and will upload it once its subbed and ready. 

Thank you dude.

[Volt]

7 hours ago, Sourenga said:

I have that arcade mode recorded and will upload it once its subbed and ready. 

Just finished watching everything. Great job as always.

 

I noticed Carl now desummons Nirvana and walks away just like Relius does with Ignis, dude's going full Clover. Also, the Black Beast roars in Noel's ending. Freaky, but kinda underwhelming.

Really curious to know what exactly happened after CPEX, it's getting hard to work on a timeline here, how did anyone even manage to get in the Embryo in the first place? I mean, CPEX's ending shows an amnesiac Ragna falling out of the Embryo, without any memories, in the middle of what looked like a desert. How did he even get back, he just jumped really high?

[JRH]

Sourenga, will you translate Terumi's Act 3 Arcade mode soon?

[Sourenga]

So yeah, all the remaining Act 3 videos I possess have been subbed and uploaded. Since people have been outright stealing my subs and uploading them to Youtube, I decided to make rest of the stuff hidden. If you're interested in watching these, send me a PM and I'll tell the password.

Spoiler

Naoto (Full)
Bang
Valkenhayn
Lambda-11-
Mu-12-
Nu-13-
Hazama
Terumi
Celica
Nine
Izanami

 

[Zedar90]

Oh, so The Origin wasn't the original prime field, but the Original Toucher(?, took contact) (原初の接触者).

Otherwise it was right, Izanami came there to take back Noel to her coffin, that she was the first to contact the god.

[Yoshirocks92]

1 minute ago, Zedar90 said:

Oh, so The Origin wasn't the original prime field, but the Original Toucher(?, took contact) (原初の接触者).

Otherwise it was right, Izanami came there to take back Noel to her coffin, that she was the first to contact the god.

Well at least we've got more out of this now that we are able to see Mu's ending for ourselves. 

[Sourenga]

I personally thought it was a nice touch how in Nine's ending she talked about Nox Nyctores but the actual text referred to them as "godslayers". It was a nice indirect explanation to the origin of their Japanese name "Arch Enemy".
I don't really remember Phase novels all that well... Was this true Takemikazuchi ever explained or teased them?