Potemkin neutral game

[I am Jeroen]

This is a repost from my thread in the noobie forum. I was told it was more suited for the Potemkin forum.

Right, so I've played Guilty Gear casually in the past and have now Xrd has come to steam, I have decided to pick it up for real. I've got a basic understanding of the game mechanics and my character (Potemkin). This means I can pull off combo's, use my meter for defensive purposes, execute mix-ups and basic oki. These are things that are very basic and easy for me to understand. Now to what I don't understand, and that is the neutral game. Whenever I play or watch match videos I have no idea of what is going on. More specifcially, what am I supposed to be thinking of when I occupy this spot on the screen or what are these dudes in this video thinking as they're battling for positioning. I can get no further information from videos besides finding the spot on the screen that they want to occupy because (I'm guessing) it probably is where their character is strongest or they are least susceptible to enemy attacks.

Let me give you an example. I'm playing as Potemkin versus a Millia. The round starts and Millia backs off. I now think to myself: "what do I do?" I know that Millia can airdash and be in my face in a split second. I know she can go to the air and do hairpin to put me into blockstun. Another is that she runs at me and sticks out a button. There are more options, but lets keep it to these three for now. My mind is now cycling through my own options: "Do I do a pre-emptive 5S to stop the airdash? Do I try to react to the jump and flick the pin or backdash and avoid? Maybe I should do a neutral jump on reaction to her jump and try to go for  airthrow. As for dealing with the run, I'll try to hit 2D pre-emptively or do I wait for the run and then do it?"

I choose any of these options, but guessed wrong. I get hit or put into blockstun, knocked down eventually and put into the blender. I have no meter the first time round and I didn't guess right, into blender again. I manage to get out somehow, neutral is reset. Now Millia can get to choose again from the three previously mentioned options. I choose wrongly and get put into blender. It's the end of round 1, I lost. Round 2 is starting and I'm hoping for the best.

Is this how the game works (as Potemkin)? Committing to unsafe moves and hoping for the best? It's not just versus Millia either. I can give you a similar scenario versus Faust for example, or any of the cast for that matter. So how is this game's neutral played? Do you have to make pre-emptive decisions? Or is it reactionary? I can hear everybody already thinking, a combination. So then how do I approach the neutral?

There is hardly ever a time during neutral where I don't feel at risk of a potential attack. So I feel the need (as a Potemkin player) to occupy space to stop any incoming attacks. Avoiding potential attacks is also an option, but because Potemkin has limited movement options, chances are that you won't get your precious space back. Looking busy (dashing or walking back and forth, sticking out buttons, hopping up and down) while looking out for a specific move is another potential option, but not for Potemkin. That leaves me with occupying space and blocking.

Potemkin has far reaching normals that do a great job at occupying space, but they're slow as balls and have long recovery. So everytime I decide to hit them, I'm unable to block for a relatively long time. The only actions during the neutral game that Potemkin can use without much risk are 2P, walking, neutral jumping and blocking. Is this how the game is supposed to be played as Potemkin?

I get street fighter neutral (reactionary, more slow). I get kof neutral (actively defending and occupying space, fast paced). Guilty gear (at least from Pot's perspective) doesn't feel quick enough to be about actively hitting buttons and moving around (because of his generally long recovery), but it doesn't seem slow enough to be reactionary either (I do nothing and before I can say bananahammock I am put into blockstun). Can someone explain how to approach the neutral game?

[Blade]

Most fights consist of players doing their best to avoid Potemkin's Buster at all costs.  So expect lots of jumps, and you should punish with Heat Knuckle or an anti-air whenever you get a read on someone.

As for Millia, since she's a "ground mixup fiend", your best answer might be to jump and avoid what she throws at you altogether.  If she IAD's that's easy enough to 6P on reaction.  Knowing your frame data also helps.  j.S and j.H are some of Pote's best jump-ins, j.P is okay for Air to air.  j.D is good for mind games.

Potemkin isn't all about unsafe gambles.  A lot of his moves are good in some respects, like Backwards or Forwards Mega Fist, which can pressure opponents in to blocking high, then get tricked in to blocking a low like 2P or a meaty 5K.  Anything that can take you to the corner for 6K loops.  And don't forget Hammerfall can eat 1 hit.  Pote's backdash sets him up for a Buster as well if they try to attack him on wakeup.

Some of his moves can cross players up too if they're too busy focusing on rushdown pressure.

Learning to take advantage of Instant Blocking and punishing with Potemkin Buster is a critical skill asset if you plan on maining him (since he's primarily a defensive character to begin with).

The goal for Pote mostly is to get close and Buster, so controlling the ground (Slide Head), controlling the air (Heat Knuckle, 2H, 6P), and controlling space (FDB Projectiles, Trishula, f.S, 5H) is what he's all about.

[Flick]

On your side: keep walking foward and look out for sweep. 2P,5H,2D,f.S is your button to use on the ground. 2P is excellent, 5H has range and damage but is slow, 2D has better range than Millia's 2D, f.S good for jump checking but lose to run up 2D. Try to react to her IAD, airdash with 6P. If she jump, react with one or two 5P in case she airdash in ( if she throws pin you're safe due to 5P's short recovery), or just jump later than her, prepare to IB her blockstring/pin and get an air throw if you can. neutral jump jS/jH/jP is good(FAB told me that). Don't jump when she's running into you, just 2P/2D depend on range. Never try to do any air normal beside jD if she's under you, and even jD is not abusable, an IB>throw can take you from left corner to right corner
Don't slidehead, it's a good tool but millia can react easily and punish you hard for that. Avoid blind flicking, the reward usually doesn't worth the risk, just instant jump IB the pin
In short: first you have to make her scared of coming into you, then you can run your game.

@Blade: please don't say the things you don't know, 2P is not a low. And i belive no one use slidehead to control the ground

[I am Jeroen]

Nice, that is some useful stuff to know. So generally speaking this is a reactionary style game. You just have to look out for particular things and be aware of delayed double jumps and IAD.

So according to what you're saying, react to IAD with 6P, react to jumps with 5P's (in case she does a delayed IAD) or jump to get an air throw. And I'm guessing that Potemin generally doesn't have the luxury to do pre-emptive buttons or FDB's (in case it whiffs). So I should only be sticking out buttons when I'm in range to hit the opponent or when I have a read on their movement, correct?

[younghou]

I have the same issues with neutral game in some match ups, specially in the air game department. guilty gear is game with great tools for mobility (double jumps, air dashing, super jumps, run, air delayed normals/specials, YRC, etc) so sometimes my street fighter background won't work and my brain explode, lol. 

anyway i try to look for opponent options, for example if millia has 50% meter she can f.s>f.hs>RC so is very common she run>and do it or try to play footsie with that, the same in other match ups like ky and his slide>RC, ram's daruo>YRC, i-no's chemical love>YRC, etc when they get a free ticked in using meter, so i use training mode to find counters to this situations.

[Flick]

3 hours ago, I am Jeroen said:

Nice, that is some useful stuff to know. So generally speaking this is a reactionary style game. You just have to look out for particular things and be aware of delayed double jumps and IAD.

So according to what you're saying, react to IAD with 6P, react to jumps with 5P's (in case she does a delayed IAD) or jump to get an air throw. And I'm guessing that Potemin generally doesn't have the luxury to do pre-emptive buttons or FDB's (in case it whiffs). So I should only be sticking out buttons when I'm in range to hit the opponent or when I have a read on their movement, correct?

Yeah, that's what i think(and saw) how to play neutral in Pot vs Millia matchup.That's what i tried to say when i said first you have to make her scared of coming into you. Potemkin's pre-emptive buttons and FDB is in fact very good (they have range, big hitbox and huge reward on CH, but quite lack speed). Don't be the one to go first, Millia's pressure is not something you should worry about, so blocking some of her blockstring is not problems. You should play an actively defensive neutral - if we need a term to define it

[I am Jeroen]

Yeah, I see that you really need to have a good understanding of the opponent's tools and options in GG. It influences the neutral heavily.

I feel like I've gotten a better grasp of the GG neutral game, now I've shifted from a challenging footsie game to a more reactive footsie game.

Defending versus airborne charaters remains a struggle though. It's not that difficult if the opponent is trying to airdash right into me, I'll just 6P or try to go for an airthrow (like Flick advises). But what is more challening for me is when they try to stay way above me and then change their trajectory on the way down. How should I approach a situation like that? 6P seems to be quite dangerous, because it leaves me exposed when I whiff it. I can try jumping away from them, but they might follow me with an airdash. It definitely isn't an advantageous situation for me to be in. Is this a well deserved mix-up on their part? Like, should I have not ever allowed them to get into that position in the first place? If so how should I have stopped them from getting above me? Some characters can get really high up into the air, outside of Pot's reach.

[younghou]

i use trishula like a anti air, also heavenly (if they don't have burst), and sometimes i try a raw 2hs.

anyway i struggle in the same way, the most of the time i don't really understand the air department of guilty gear, for example, flick say you should do a 6p on IAD (on millia), but this not work if the dash is long or if you are to near, your 6p will whiff and you get punish when he land in behind of you, other characters just beat your 6p, for example ram, ram with hs sword can j.hs on you and beat your 6p easily, also she can summon her swords and use it like a small hop to make your 6p whiff, other characters like sol/elphelt can use his air divekicks to punish or make your timing on anti air harder, also some characters has IAD>YRC or some special move>YRC. in summary, i think jumping on guilty gear and anti air is not to much a straight forward topic like other games, look to me like you can fake and mind game in the air so the study in this department is required.   

[I am Jeroen]

Yes, it's definitely very spacing and timing dependent. But that is something I'm quite used to from other games, different situations call for different answers. Although in this game the anti-airs are definitely not as guaranteed as with non-airdashers. Which makes complete sense now I think about it, haha.

The most difficult thing is definitely, like you're saying, characters who can change their air trajectory. To the lab!

[Flick]

that's actually a deeper layer of anti-airing. Remember that i told you "don't be the one to go first" > that's my key fundamental thought on anti airing. As long as you are not the one who jump first, you'll always be the one who's under your opponent, and in almost air to air/air to ground situation in GG, the one who is under is the one with advantage. I can list a bunch of example here: you're on the ground and oppo's in the air: your 6P will always beat them if you do it right. Oppo's landing on the ground - you'll always be the one who can throw him first, due to landing recover frame and the ground hurtbox of your opponent appears 1frame before landing. Both in the air and trying to air throw, if oppo's above you, you'll always win the throw due to the throwbox is lower than your head ... etc, maybe more than enough for you to recognize the huge advantage here
Take example from what younghou said: Actually there's always a safe(but sometimes very hard to do/confirm.judge) way to deal with them. If millia is jumping near you and you can smell an airdash over, just neutral jump and prepare to IB>airthrow or just straight up air throw - she's above you in the air > therefore she can't throw you before you throw her, if she does an air move into blockstring, try to IB them and air throw. If she hesitate do do shit, tag her with jP or wait for her to fall down and throw out your 6P. This seems textbook and easy in paper but in fact very hard, and i can only recall 1 person can do these kind of anti air into it's fullest - it's FAB. But even if you're not FAB, you can still practice this things into like 4-50% and make your Millia opponent never want to meet you in the air.
In Ram and Sol's case you can do the same thing. With Ram, if she's jumpin above you, best thing she can do here is jH(H sword equipped),jP,airdash,or double jump. instant air IBed jH guarantee a throw, jP blockstring can be IBed mid string and air throw, if she double jump, she's still above you and is even in a worst situation because she's lost her safest option(airdash back away), if she airdash you can always air throw the airdash startup ...
 

[I am Jeroen]

Man, I'm lucky that there's somebody on this forum who has a good idea of the thought process behind all this. Very helpful.

Thank you too, Young.

I'm sure I will have more questions later. ^^

[younghou]

adding more pieces to the potemkin's neutral game puzzle, what happen to me a lot is some moves look safe in neutral but in reality are heavy risky, flick mentioned FDB is risky some times, also 5hs and hammer fall are really risky, for example 5hs can easily punished by jumping and IAD the most of the time, the same happen if you autopilot hammer fall in (this is a issue i know from sf, the charge characters tendency is to release the charge after blocked opponent moves, pushed opponent away, etc) or autopilot slide head. this don't mean you need remove this options, but you need be aware of the risk, autopilot of the situations you are, and also find the same autopilot/risk patterns in the opponent neutral game to take advantage of that. 

[Darlos9D]

Yeah, even when you're at 5H range, its worth while to toss out some fS just in case they try to move in aerially. Keep 'em honest.