New to Arcsys/anime stuff, few questions

[CallMeTetris]

Hey everyone! Long time fighting game player here (albeit a pretty bad one). I mostly stick to the more traditional stuff, mostly SF/MK/KI, though I'm coming off a bit of a hiatus from fighting games in general. I'm not brand new to Arcsys stuff per se, I've spent good chunks of time in the lab learning mechanics, bnbs/combo paths etc, but finally getting ready to make the leap into seriously playing them.  So i guess some of my questions are...

 

1. What are some of the biggest things I should be focusing on learning/training in regards to mobility? I feel like I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to really incorporate double jumps and airdashes into the neutral game, and though I'm sure that's something that will come with time, it'd be nice to have some pointers as to what i should and should not be doing.

 

2. Is there a list of moves that grant counterhits on punish? I'm assuming most invincible reversals/DPs have that property a la SFV, but I'm curious if any others do as well.

 

3. Are character specific combos a big aspect of Arcsys games in general? I've done some messing around with Marie in P4AU and know she's got a few different variations of her bnb depending on the opponent. I haven't ran into much of it with the other characters and games I've tried, but is it something to expect as i go deeper?

 

I guess those are my biggest questions for now, but will probably have more as I think of them. Thanks in advance!

[ImMadRachett]

honestly i been on here for the better half of a year and receive little to no help from the forums, i just kind of stick to the wiki pages and guides for help :/

[Dazardz]

I'm no expert, but I have played for years so I should be of some help.

1. Focus on one character and then learn mobility for that character. Think about their speed and their normals. Your character might have small normals but good speed, so in that case you should learn when to airdash, double jump etc. in neutral. I can't help you much if I don't know what game it is, but usually I think that airdashing and jumping is something you do all the time with most characters, but you should try not to be predictable with it. Don't constantly airdash as your way in, you could get easily anti-aired when someone has adjusted to that. So try not to use the air as your only approach, otherwise you'll get anti-aired over and over. The ground is also important too, you should try approaching by just ground dashing at times so that you aren't predictable.

Then your character might actually be a slow one, and you may not have to jump and airdash around all the time. Then you probably have to think about the range of their normals and which normals you should be using when you want to approach. Bigger normals with less recovery is obviously the way to go. I don't know the game you're focusing on, so I can't help you much with this. Good luck.

Backdashes are also important. Every character's backdashes are different. Some are great, some others are... mediocre. They are all still important though. You can use them to escape pressure when you find an opening or just for better spacing (depending on the character you use.

2. If I read what you're asking correctly, then the answer is, everything grants counter hit if the opponent manages to hit you within it's recovery frames. A DP is a great example. If you hit them while they can't do anything because they're recovering, you're granted a counterhit. It's the same with every other move. If someone hits you during the startup, active or recovery frames of it, it should be a counter. Also, every character has one or two (or maybe three) moves that grant fatal counter if you choose to punish with that move. Fatal counters allow for better and more damaging combos, so make sure you learn what your character can start a fatal counter combo with. The wiki is good for that.

3. A few characters are like that, Marie and Sho are one of them. It's the same for very few other characters in ArcSys games too. Despite that, not a lot of characters are like that in these games so you don't have to worry about learning character specific combos unless your character's combos are like that. But if you were thinking of pulling off really advanced combos and going that deep into the game, more than a few characters in Persona have character specific combos. 

Hope I was helpful. I'm sure there are others on the forum who may be able to help you a bit, in case I wasn't enough for you. Good luck and hang in there with these games.

[Myoro]

Dazardz said most of what I wanted to say. At neutral double jumps are usually there to mix-up the timing of your jump in to dodge anti-airs or other potential dangers, or else extend its reach on a retreating opponent. Airdashes are for a couple things, but the obvious use is to get to the opponent quick whist in an airborne state. It could be that you're already in the air and you need to punish their recovery, or that you predict they'll try to jump and you want badly to airgrab them, ether way an airdash is usually the quickest option to that end. Airdashes are also used by many characters to do cross-ups in these games. In BB at the very least airdashes usually are commitment, once they begin the player can't block for a good chunk of frames, unless they play Tao Arakune Izayoi or Bang who can use additional air options to negate said commitment (Additionally some characters can use moves to halt or modify their airdash.) While it's a little slower, dashing then jumping is a safer option for air approach that will go just as far because the momentum from the dash is kept. You also maintain the additional jump/airdash to use however you need. 

[Airk]

3 hours ago, ImMadRachett said:

honestly i been on here for the better half of a year and receive little to no help from the forums, i just kind of stick to the wiki pages and guides for help :/

I honestly don't think I've ever seen you ask a question. :P

Anyway, your question about counter-hits is kinda game specific. Actually, all of your questions are kinda game specific. What game are we talking about? For example, Blazblue, there are usually some character specific combos, but I'd say they're about as important as they are in SF - nice to have, but not really a huge part of the game.  Similarly, different moves have different counter-hit durations, and not everything that's a guaranteed punish is also a guaranteed counter-hit.  This stuff used to be in the frame data, but it's not for the newer games. I think the rule of thumb was something like 'The last 9 frames of a move are not considered a counter hit' so if you have a move that's 10 frames of startup, active for 3 and then recovers for 15, you'd have to hit the opponent in the first six frames of their recovery (or sooner) to get a CH.  However, this is just a rule of thumb, and individual moves could vary.

So I guess what I'm saying is - what game are we discussing?

[CallMeTetris]

1 hour ago, Airk said:

I honestly don't think I've ever seen you ask a question. :P

Anyway, your question about counter-hits is kinda game specific. Actually, all of your questions are kinda game specific. What game are we talking about? For example, Blazblue, there are usually some character specific combos, but I'd say they're about as important as they are in SF - nice to have, but not really a huge part of the game.  Similarly, different moves have different counter-hit durations, and not everything that's a guaranteed punish is also a guaranteed counter-hit.  This stuff used to be in the frame data, but it's not for the newer games. I think the rule of thumb was something like 'The last 9 frames of a move are not considered a counter hit' so if you have a move that's 10 frames of startup, active for 3 and then recovers for 15, you'd have to hit the opponent in the first six frames of their recovery (or sooner) to get a CH.  However, this is just a rule of thumb, and individual moves could vary.

So I guess what I'm saying is - what game are we discussing?

 

The counterhit question comes from BBCPex specifically, the bit in the tutorial that mentions Inferno Divider being in a counterhit state for the entire animation of the move. Looking back I probably misinterpreted a bit of that tutorial - I assumed there was a system in place similar to SFV where DPs will grant a counterhit during recovery, though it seems things aren't quite that universal in BB. Was mostly just looking for a quick list of stuff I'd be able to get a big FC punish off of, but looks like I'll have to do a bit more research on how BB handles counterhits in general.

The other questions aren't for any game specifically I guess, just looking for some general insight into Arcsys stuff. I don't mind optimized character-specific combos, but things like Marie having character-specific bnbs is a little intimidating, seems like that's not generally an issue for most characters/games though. Thanks for the answers so far!

[Airk]

Right, so, the thing about Inferno Divider being in CH for the entire recovery is indeed a somewhat unique property of that move, or rather, of DP type moves, but almost all moves are in a CH state for SOME portion of their recovery.  In terms of what you can get a big punish on, that's really too big a list to list. Most supermoves are subject to big punishes, as are most DPs (I'm not actually aware of any that aren't at this point, but they have existed in the past).  But when you've got a cast of 28 or something characters, trying to list every move you can punish is a bit too big of a task for me.

[CallMeTetris]

No problem, I figured it'd be a much smaller list! The idea of most moves being counterhittable in recovery is something I never would have guessed.

[Airk]

4 minutes ago, CallMeTetris said:

No problem, I figured it'd be a much smaller list! The idea of most moves being counterhittable in recovery is something I never would have guessed.

Well, almost all moves are counterhittable for PART of their recovery, but most moves can't be counterhit during the part of recovery you'll hit them in if you block it, if you follow me.

[CallMeTetris]

Yep, I think I get you!