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Linuka

[Xrd] Dizzy Gameplay Discussion - "Onegai, yamete!"

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Haven't gotten to checking all the videos here, but  also made an oki setup vid for HS pike. Pretty simple stuff and could probably be optimized. (can't consistently do Kazuki's IAD bubble crossup fish setups so tried something easier).

 

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22 hours ago, redsilversnake said:

Bit of advice: Do NOT autopilot special cancels in blockstrings against certain characters. I've tested with Sol, Ky, and Sin, and they can all easily hit Dizzy out of any special she does after 5H or 2D. Others likely can too, but I've yet to test them. But basically, just don't special cancel against certain characters at all when they're blocking unless you can YRC whatever it is you use.

Did some testing regarding this. tl;dr, don't ever use 214x except online or if you've conditioned your opponent. This isn't terribly extensive, but it should give a basic idea of each character's options should they block 5H.

Sol: Grand Viper will beat 236P and 214x.

Ky: Stun Dipper will beat 236P and 214x.

Millia: 214K's HS followup will beat 214x.

Zato: Invite Hell can hit her during 214x startup, as well as cancel out 236P if Dizzy is far enough away.

Potemkin: Hammerfall will beat 236P, 236HS, and 214x.

Axl: [4}6S will beat 214x.

Faust: 2H will beat 214x.

May: [4]6S will beat 214x; 63214HS will beat 214x at most distances and trade with 236P.

Chipp: 22H will beat 236P; Alpha Blade beats 236P and 214x; if he IBs 5H, 22H will beat 236HS.

Johnny: 6K, if done as early as possible, will beat 214x.

Venom: Stinger Aim YRC and Carcass Raid YRC will beat 214x and 236P.

Jam: 236S' K followup and 236K will beat 214x; interestingly, however, not even her 632146D will win against 236HS, instead either losing or trading depending on her distance from Dizzy.

Slayer: 236K will beat 214x.

I-no: Chemical Love will beat 214x.

Bedman: 236S will beat 214x; his dash will work against 236HS.

Ramlethal: Dauro will beat 214x, as well as 236HS if she IBs 5H.

Sin: Elk Hunt will beat 214x and 236P.

Elphelt: Too much to list.

Jack-O: 3H will 236P and 214x.

Raven: 236S will beat 214x.

Haehyun: 6H will beat 214x depending on distance.

Dizzy: 236S will beat 214x.

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6[H], Fire Pillar (assuming you hit high enough), and Throw all seem to give H Fish oki (her best meaty by far imho). If you can get them blocking that then you actually have some decent options afterwards (cross ups, lows, throws, delayed overheads, etc). I'm starting to think it's well worth RRC whenever possible to get a 6[H] or 236H rather than a 2D as 2D oki is average at best. 

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What gives stronger oki options, ending a combo with 6H > Special Cancel (fish of choice) or 236H?

Debating which corner combo I should stick with based on that, the corner combo options are...

Stuff > Spike RC, 66 TK236K > j.H, 66 6[H] > 421H, j.H > j.236P, j.H > 66 6H > Oki

Stuff > Spike RC, 66 6[H] > 421H, j.H > j.236K, j.H > 236H, Oki

The 1st combo does a whopping 1 more point of damage but it's not very timing dependent. The 2nd option really depends on whether you can time the 6[H] correctly and different weight classes affect that timing (I really, REALLY hate weight classes in this series). Now my main concern would be whether one makes oki tighter than the other. Only real way to test this would be against an actual player but I'm not a fan of playing against people before I have a pretty good grasp on the character. So... 6H > Oki or 236H > Oki?

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So, Kazuki and Daiji put out some curious tweets earlier today.

Kazuki said that at the moment, he feels that Dizzy worse off than in Slash. He believes this is because she lacks a "weapon" of some kind. He never finds himself thinking, "If I can get into this situation, I can win," but rather, "I lose no matter how I approach this." There just isn't much to do if no one finds a "weapon" for her.

Daiji retweeted him and replied that he hasn't found one either. He contrasted her with Ramlethal, who "can see victory if Dauro hits," and Zato, who can with 2D and his drills. For Dizzy, though, even if she lands 2D or 236S/H, she can't end things afterward. The opponent just bounces back. He also wonders if this is exacerbated by her having a bad affinity with the universal mechanics. A "weapon" that has people go, "This is it!" needs to be found.

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I still think its early to  judge the  character. Specials are slow and the oki is currently not great but if you think about it from different point of view, they give you time to follow them and add more summons or do other actions. As they stated, its the design of the character vs the game mechanics. 

 

Generally, I don't think her being very bad to the level of not being viable. I still think there is much room for improvement and lets not forget that Dizzy with tension is not that weak actually. I don't know about how fast is her meter gain but if they make it faster, will this solve the problem? because I think she has more possibilities  for oki and stronger neutral with meter.

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It's true that she's still relatively fresh, but it's nevertheless also true that there are things working against her. One being that, at least going by the data on Gunframe, every character's wakeup is faster than in previous games and her 214X didn't get proportionally faster startup frames, which makes her okizeme less stable than it used to be.

Makkii, Kazuki, and Daiji are still talking about developing her more, though, and other good players are surely testing things, so she could improve later on. For now, though, I guess she'll be among the characters who have to work harder than others.

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This is just my opinion!
learning the wake-up frame data or checking them out before a fight of both face up and face down is actually really nice for a Dizzy player.


By knowing the speed of the different character's wake up you can work around them and mix your opponent real bad by alternating between whiff and meaty on your fishes since they need a precise timing in order to act as a meaty, also, since you can either score a face up/down KD thanks to Dizzy's 236S, 236H, 2D (Face down) and 6H (Face up) you can expand your choices even more.

The best use of this that I've found is so that I can grab instantly, most of the times they think I screwed up and try to jump away on the next KD (Which is a meaty summon), causing them to take the hit without even blocking, also, This isn't something you can abuse if you can't score a meaty Fish most of the times or every single time.

*This only works if your opponent respects your options, if not, they'll mash their way out of it*

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Finally decided to pick up this character.  I'm struggling with the linked corner combo, specifically the first charged 6HS to 421H.  Either the charged 6HS whiffs or the spike doesn't come out in time.  Is there a trick to this and or is it character specific in timing?  Thanks for any tips you can provide.

 

 

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6 hours ago, wiredgod said:

Finally decided to pick up this character.  I'm struggling with the linked corner combo, specifically the first charged 6HS to 421H.  Either the charged 6HS whiffs or the spike doesn't come out in time.  Is there a trick to this and or is it character specific in timing?  Thanks for any tips you can provide.

 

 

Timing and spacing. You must be very close also to hit with 421H.

If the charged 6H whiffs you probably doing it very early/high

If you are close and 421H doesn't hit, you probably cancelling very late,not doing a full charge or doing the charged HS very late/low. Try practicing this part separately, to know the timing of charging and cancelling

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8 hours ago, wiredgod said:

Finally decided to pick up this character.  I'm struggling with the linked corner combo, specifically the first charged 6HS to 421H.  Either the charged 6HS whiffs or the spike doesn't come out in time.  Is there a trick to this and or is it character specific in timing?  Thanks for any tips you can provide.

 

 

That's my video <3

That combo is character specific, and spacing dependant, there are better options, that are universal and easier

The one that I use now is
 XX 236S RRC 66 TK P Bubble jH land 421H 7jH 236K jH 236H
If you do it with a good starter gives you really good damage (200+ aprox) and H drake Oki.

if you still want to try: After You dash  wait a bit before doing the 6H then keep holding it till it release by itself then input 421H.

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Kazuki has apparently discovered that you can combo into Imperial Ray from a ground throw.

Throw>IAD j.K>j.P>j.K>Delayed J.HS>IR will work on Ky and Raven, but is stricter on Chipp, Axl, Elphelt, and Sin, must be done as fast as possible on Leo, Johnny, and Bedman, and requires a delayed IAD on May. Dash 2K seems to be the only way to pull it off on Potemkin. It has full corner carry even from the opposite corner.

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Hi guys. Long time Dizzy player since X2.

I am far from good, but would just like to share my thoughts. I most probably am wrong or misunderstanding some things so please correct me.

It's going to be long and rambling, sorry for that.

 

tl;dr - Dizzy neutral is harder now. Play very safe, make the opponent respect your tick throws/air throws. Do not crossup fish setups/IAD block strings ending in jP->jH, if opponent has a tendency to blitz. Only when opponent starts to respect your throws will you be able to get that tiny slight delay needed to throw your summons/bubble out. USE YOUR DOUBLE AIRDASHES.

Dizzy in Xrd has a really hard time I feel. I'll talk about the + and - points 

  1. Bubble seems slower to pop, the pop itself is smaller (about 3 pixels?)
  2. No reliable air-to-ground (j2S was excellent, but perhaps too powerful)
  3. No reliable IAD air-to-ground
  4. Much more difficult to confirm
  5. Character specific timing oki
  6. Blitz kills crossup attempts
  7. Throw, throw, and throw.
  8. Air throw, and air throw some more.
  9. D fish
  10. Fire spear YRC
  11. Fire spike
  12. 2HS

Let me cover them one by one:

1. Previously you could use jK to pop TK bubble and you could block in time and react. Now you have to commit to jP which is 2 frames slower. I find myself getting hit out of attempting to jP the bubble far far more often and opponents are blocking the pop far more often. Probably the most in any of the GG games. The pop itself is smaller, which encourages opponents to close in. Previously TK bubble air backdash jS was a decent way to get them to block and summon. No longer. The bubble pop is much easier to avoid/low profile.

Fire bubble, now this is good. Fire bubble allows you to cover much greater horizontal range, and is probably the reason for the smaller pop. However it comes at a greater risk, fire bubble lifts you up higher (which can be useful at times, e.g. go over stun edge height), takes longer start, recover and pop and opponents can get under it much easier than P bubble. Good news is off course, spike/air throw RC into fire bubble KD/loop damage. It's hard to do, and character specific, but no one stopped playing I-No in AC because she was difficult, so suck it up and lab more. You MUST be able to deal great damage when the time is right, your chances to deal safe damage are lower in Xrd.

2. Let's look at air-to-ground scenarios, landing and IAD/AD/double AD. Landing air-to-ground, if you cannot safely do jH, jP and jK are your realistic options. jK if done too high (hit on standing opponent), you have to jP/jS. jS can totally whiff, jP realistically only lets you safely land and 5P. However, you need great reflexes or great experience to decide, and a mistake in decision WILL lead to you getting hit by mashers or thrown. Always end with 2D when combo. If air dashing backwards, sometimes jH can be punished depending on opponent. It has a smaller vertical hurtbox than it looks (the feet in particular don't seem to be hurtable) but some moves will cleanly beat it. Better to land and react to any attempts to antiair jH.

3. Am I the only one having severe problems with IAD strings? xxjP jH gets blitz if they IB jP. If you go for whiff jS/jH or jK jP land throw, it's a decent option but at great risk since her throw range is shorter now, you may end up with a cS if they FD or worse fS, or worst, 4S which whiffs nicely on crouching. You need to be really alert, like I said it's difficult to confirm Dizzy and you must be perfect with your strings or your chances are very low. In this case 5K+H OS may be the overall safer option as you retain jc option. On a standing opponent 5P after landing is probably the safest option.

Next, you have to IAD really low or else you will go over opponent to the other side. I've found that over time opponents know the height at which I can IAD successfully and I have to stop my attempt. Then I have little options except to attempt to back off or jump and air dash around. Backing off is NOT an option, everyone will chase after Dizzy, you will not have enough time to bubble pop or summon unless you YRC. YRC as a defensive option for aborting your IAD is not wise, you'll back yourself into a wall eventually with no meter.

4. Dizzy has to commit really early to most ... things. Setups, specials, normals, the lot. I've watched Makki, Takehara, HH, and they seem to have the same problem. The universal blitz, charged blitz kills many setups. So do not attempt to do the setups which allow blitz too often, or make sure they have no meter to blitz. The overall safest option I find is to 2D, K fish with the appropriate delay to make sure the first bite is meaty, then delay your dash in so that you can see the blitz, punish accordingly, if no blitz, go for your throw. Without throw you return to neutral, try to use a JC move to back off, cS is good, 5K or 2HS is OK. If they IB cS, prepare to stop your 2P or microdash 2P/5P (on Pot and possible Haehyun?).

5. There's no away around this. Lab, train, and train some more. Anywhere outside of corner, ice spike ender is a poor option unless going for damage with RC. This leaves 2D into spear, or K fish. Both of these options need to be fine tuned to the wakeup timing of each opponent. You MUST learn this or you have nothing outside of RC. Whenever you get a midscreen throw, ending with 6H + P fish is a strong option as it gives you throw and a blitz/burst bait. For corner carry, like one of the previous post mentioned, explore your Imperial Ray options. Dizzy is strong in the corner setup.

6. Mentioned previously, blitz is bad for Dizzy. Even if you IAD very high over their head you will get blitz rejected. If you go too high with a blitz safe timing you will get air thrown. Just always bait the blitz and train your opponent to respect. Then when you feel the time is right try your crossups/fake crossup.

7. Whilst the throw range has been reduced significantly, you must still attempt throws. I find that if I can get 2-3 throws per round I generally have a good chance if I don't mess up. Throw gives you many many options. 6H into fish, some carry with the classic xxx4S ice spike, and in the corner, even if you spike, you can microdash P fish meaty on most characters. With YRC you can K fish, 236P YRC, ice spear, and do your high/low IAD, this I find is generally the best option as it stops upbacking/DP and it's generally hard (but not impossible) to blitz because you can always dash in 2K versus IAD. This is a great mind pressure tool and you should be expecting any of the opponent reversals/defenses/burst to pop up when you start your dash/IAD.

8. Dizzy has excellent, near the best air throw range. You must punish any attempts to jump in or jump out of your fish with air throw, if doing forward throws OS with 6P+H. I'm still relatively poor at the quick reaction air throws but this I feel is something that must be worked on or your projectiles will just get disrespected.

9. D fish is pretty interesting. In the corner it gives more options than P fish but you need to react really fast. It autoguards one hit and then pulls back and does a really far reaching bite. Some weird stuff happens when the D fish autoguards multihit overdrives like Ramlethal's. The fish blocks the first hit of Ramlethals OD and then get this, flies through the entire OD and hits Ramlethal, seemingly immune to the rest of the hits. Much testing needs to be done still. Being an autoguard, if you place it right on top of the opponent in the corner, it makes it very hard for them to get out. The D fish can be low profiled which goes right under it (e.g Ky 2D), so don't treat it as a free lunch and dash in. Remember when the fish blocks a hit it will pull back really far and provide NO hit protection until it goes back in front of you. Can lead to throw/air if opponent tries to block/jump respectively, so be ready. Treat it as a K fish and use your JC (most likely 2P 5K jc) to get some breathing room to summon spear or air dash back in if you see opponent try to hit the fish.

10. This deserves a special mention. This is your "come and get me" move. YRCing fire spear at the correct times and releasing H correctly makes it stay in place without launching until you release H again. It behaves like Eddie in that sense. I've sometimes gotten three spears out, and upon YRCing, one spear released and two were held. I have yet to figure out how to do it again.

YRCing fire spear wrongly will launch it immediately which isn't a great option so lab it. It does massive damage if you hit with 3 spears, and if they block it, the blockstun is quite long, you can hide behind it and dust, or crossup safely. Your opponent will most likely attempt to run past or jump over it, if they try to run past, either stop them in their tracks with 2P or block their move and release the spears. Very good reward. It is however difficult to combo if the spear(s) hit(s), if you are quick enough you can nail a fire spike which gives you plenty of time to set meaty fish.

Now, how to find the time to launch and hold fire spear? Generally, after fire spike, after RC or after Imperial ray. After fire spike I tend to YRC jump immediately as I expect the opponent to come in.

11. Fire spike has very short active time, don't be deceived by the flaming gust. It only hits when it first gusts up after that the flaming effect is just pretty and has no hit box. It does hit very high vertically and is a way to frame trap after 2D, or bring upbackers in the corner down to the ground if you YRC it.

Beware of frame trapping after 2D with fire spike as some opponents can punish on block/IB. Slayer in particular can simply forward dash past the fire spike. Ky can stun dipper on IB (which may not reach you). So be ready to YRC, or don't do it at all. Again, you have to commit early, before you even 2D. If you 2D without fire spike and they IB 2D the same punishes apply. So if you 2D against these opponents, better not to use fire spike and YRC fish.

2D has a long cancel window so make good use of it. It will eventually train your opponent enough to buy you time to stay safe or summon.

12. 2HS is the highest non-meter damage starter in my experience. So if you're going for the kill, use it when possible. 2HS jc jS jP jS dj jS jD on most opponents.

The jc is only after the 2nd hit. It works sometimes as an anti-air or anti-upback but it is (again) difficult to confirm. You may not get the 1st hit, and 2nd hit may hit too high making you whiff jS (in which case use jD if you want some damage). 

2HS also is probably the highest RISC increasing move Dizzy has, so incorporating it into your fish block strings is a way to get the opponent really nervous/build up possible greater reward for damage. If they FD it hey, it's all good, gives you more room to jc back airdash.

So that's all I've got so far. There's too many matchup specific stuff to talk about in one post.

 

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Hey, thanks for the helpful posts. I think Dizzy is different in Xrd. I didn't play the older games but watched some videos and felt its different because in Xrd, there are different stuff, mainly YRC. I think Time management is very crucial thing , YRC allows different things in Xrd like combinations/sequences, buying yourself time to put more summons or position yourself. Dizzy is very meter dependent I think and the early game is an uphill battle.

 I agree with you that some moves needs to expand the hitbox like j.236p/k and 236s/hs. Its unfair to lose a match because your well-calculated move or your combo ender whiffs.

 

About j236p,236k: Whenever I have the chance, I give them priority but I still need more ideas to make them more useful. Doing bubbles>YRC>hit helped me to keep opponents away (Both P and K), it was something like feeling, If I feel they will be very close, I use P bubble YRC and If there is little distance, I use K. Other uses of bubbles is movement unpredictability and buying aerial time to escape..etc. Maybe not easy to hit the opponent with a bubble but when you do try to be ready and don't miss the oppurtunity, I lost much oppurtunities by not noticing. After bubble hit: 4S, 6HS, 6HS(Charged) or air combo are some of the options, I prefer Charged 6HS if you are close and ready because it gives kd time but if you want some time you can use 4S.

 

For raw landing, its depending on the height, I use j.K and j.HS, Late j.HS worked great for me and if it hits you can connect 2HS, it has other uses also and needs more testing and if you get CH its fantastic . I don't know about j.D but its fast and needs some testing and if you hit with it, the reward is good.

 

For IAD: some of the strings availabe: j.KPHS , j.KSD (whiffs on crouching), j.KPS(Delay j.S to not whiff on crouching), j.KPPHS(cannot be very low). Because you want to exclude the j.p>j.hs, the enders are limited to j.p, j.k and late j.s(needs timing). j.D is out because it needs j.S. IAD>j.D  hits crouching but if they block the 2nd hit whiffs and no strings happen when landing. As for after landing, I think prioirty goes for jump cancellable normals. If you have meter and they are blocking, you can use 6P>6HS>YRC to be safe

 

I think 2D>D Fish or a fast special is a good option?

 

About throws: yea there are many decent options, others like IAD, or 5k>air combo. You can use the kd time to set a summon or a bubble near the opponent (possibly a bubble setup?). I don't know if its worthy but you can rrc 4s when staggers and combo with a throw

 

About D Fish: I think its pretty useful specially against zoners. The good thing that its fast and maybe something good to end strings/combos with

 

421HS YRC: It has different possibilites, mainly two. With or without holding. With holding, you get something like eddie. But without holding, its possible to keep them up and send them by hitting HS but it requires certain timing (holding breifly, a bit after YRC starting). For Using one or two and holding the others, its a specific time of YRC breifly after the creation.

 

Thats all I have for now, hope I helped you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Patch 1.04 notes for Dizzy

Dizzy
2P: Proration changed from 70% to 80%
f.S: Cancel window increased by 9f
5H: Cancel window increased by 5f
2H: Attack level increased from 2 to 4
Blitz Shield Charge Attack: Counter hit state changed to after active frames until the end of the move
236S (Ice spike): Hurtbox made shorter
236H (Fire spike): Hurtbox made shorter
412S (Ice spear): Tension gain changed from 200 to 250
412H (Fire spear): Tension gain changed from 200 to 250
236P (Ice scythe): Tension gain changed from 150 to 200 
214P/K (Ice fish, ground version): Tension gain changed from 50 to 100
j.214P/K (Ice fish, air version): Tension gain changed from 50 to 100. Total duration changed from 52f to 45f. Landing recovery removed
214S/H/D (Fire fish, ground version): Tension gain changed from 50 to 100. Total duration changed from 42f to 36f
j.214S/H/D (Fire fish, air version): Tension gain changed from 50 to 100. Total duration changed from 52f to 45f. Landing recovery removed
j.236P (Ice bubble): Explosion hitbox is larger
j.236K (Fire bubble): Explosion hitbox is larger. Vertical movement is faster. Total duration changed from 30f to 29f
632146D (Burst imperial ray): Damage changed from 33 to 43 


I think the best part is the reduced recovery on her fishes and the bubble hitbox that was just too small. Aside from that nothing is that good ..  but well It's something I guess.

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Not sure about her placement. Personally, biggest thing I welcome is the change in tension gauge. Perhaps gaining tension faster will help establish her neutral and set play faster.

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Some tech?:

GGXrdR PSN 12/6/16 - Daru (I-No) vs Dizziness (Dizzy/Faust) Matches:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tr1WX-ey004GGXrdR

11/29/16 - H.H (Dizzy) Matches:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkDqFjk0ItI

GGXrdR PSN 11/26/16 - Kazuki (Dizzy) Matches:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H21cJJQCDU

GGXrdR 10/29/16 - Kazuki (Dizzy) Matches:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmJT2SOD8wk

 

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REV 2 Loketest notes

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1S1IDtZTciRAlKxtGlEH5VUuqzMwUGTxNjz08wWXe0T8/preview

 

Dizzy:

Hurtboxes have been reduced in general

j.P and j.K now gatling into j.D

2S now floats on counterhit

2S sends opponents at a different angle

Bubbles will now bounce off the boundaries of the stage

236S and 236H will not go off screen

421S and 421H have changed hitstop

421S and 421H have a larger hitbox

421S now rises faster after startup

421H has a higher attack level for the second spear

Air S and H fish hitboxes come out faster

D fish will now track the opponent vertically

Bugfix where Burst Imperial Ray did not always properly give burst meter

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Ruki's impressions:

- 214P/K still don't hit Faust crouching. The lower hitbox probably didn't increase.

- 214D now staggers the opponent if it hits them on the ground, and the tracking against them in the air is fast. The attack level hasn't changed. The attack portion might be faster in general.

- Hard to tell how much her hurtboxes have been reduced. It may only be by a little. Didn't expect much to begin with, though.

- AA CH 2S is lit.

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