[Xrd] Dizzy Gameplay Discussion - "Onegai, yamete!"

[Ryd']

19 minutes ago, SQNR said:

I have a bit of trouble landing this combo on Elphelt. Only managed to do it on Elphelt once out of many tries. No real problems doing it on Sol though. Would be nice with some sort of universal midscreen RC combo like WayTookFoxy mentioned.

Didn't have any trouble with Elphelt.  Also confirmed on Chipp, Pot, Dizzy, and Millia.  Where are you dropping it?

[Moy_X7]

Here's Ryd's combo for anyone that needs visual help: 

Hardest part for me would be timing the IAD j.HS so that the bubble pops without the combo dropping. 

[Dreiko]

This combo is actually very easy to extend, just do 6(H) as opposed to 6H (fire beam does oodles of hitstun) and you can land an extra 236H afterwards, into better oki.

 

 

My go to thing is variants of:

 

5K 5SS 5H 2D 236S RC 214H dash6P 6(H) 236H > set up oki

 

 

I like this the best cause you avoid the rrc forced proration when done right since 6P hits after the slowdown. 

 

 

edit: 6H combos into gamma ray when air hit and charged too, so something like fuzzy bubble into it actually works (bubble does enough hitstun to allow a fully charged 6H to combo and buffering gamma as you hold down H is easy)

[redsilversnake]

A Japanese player on Twitter actually did post an easier alternative to the IAD bubble combos, though it has less corner carry.

Stuff>236S>RC>214H>66P>Start charging 6HS>Laser hits>6HS hits>236H

[Moy_X7]

4 hours ago, redsilversnake said:

A Japanese player on Twitter actually did post an easier alternative to the IAD bubble combos, though it has less corner carry.

Stuff>236S>RC>214H>66P>Start charging 6HS>Laser hits>6HS hits>236H

Here's footage of that combo for visual learners. I'm going to go with that as my mid-screen BnB. It's simple, it's not too distance dependent, it does damage and offers oki options: 

 

Is the corner BnB still pillar loops? Stuff > 236S > RRC, 214C, 236C, (214C hits), 236C, 236S?

[Dreiko]

In the corner vs some chars you can do the above and add 4S>236S at the end, the multiple 236H route doesn't avoid the RRC forced proration so it leads to less damage.

[WayTooFoxy]

2 hours ago, Moy_X7 said:

Here's footage of that combo for visual learners. I'm going to go with that as my mid-screen BnB. It's simple, it's not too distance dependent, it does damage and offers oki options: 

 

Is the corner BnB still pillar loops? Stuff > 236S > RRC, 214C, 236C, (214C hits), 236C, 236S?

Who does this work on? I can't seem to get it to work on Sin but it's easy on Dizzy.

Also for corner, I have been doing this, and I'm not sure if it's optimized or anywhere near optimized but it's easy and consistent and works on most of the cast, if not all:

Stuff > 2D xx 236S RRC dash until you're right underneath them, charge 6H xx 421H 7j.H xx 236K j.D land 236H
 

Decent damage. Again probably not optimized but it works for me.

 

[CheeseOfTheDay]

Seems that the fire bubble can be quite handy in combos.

tested on Sol from starting position:

K c.S 5HS 2D 236S RRC ground dash 236K jHS (f.bubble blows) 236HS dash 6HS (199 dmg + oki)

K c.S 5HS 2D 236S RRC ground dash 236K jHS (f.bubble blows) 236HS dash f.S HS 236S (218 dmg + oki)

K c.S 5HS 2D 236S RRC ground dash 236K jHS (f.bubble blows) dash 421S + aerial combo for around 200 dmg

for these combos it's better to have little higher bubble then lower.

 

[drunkards_walk]

7 hours ago, Moy_X7 said:

Here's footage of that combo for visual learners. I'm going to go with that as my mid-screen BnB. It's simple, it's not too distance dependent, it does damage and offers oki options: 

 

Is the corner BnB still pillar loops? Stuff > 236S > RRC, 214C, 236C, (214C hits), 236C, 236S?

I was thinking about using this as well, but it seems to me that the Oki offered from this combo is not good at all and cam be escaped quite easily. In fact that is my main issue right now: I just can't seem to find many solid meterless oki setups. From a 2D you can get a meaty 214H on some characters or meaty 421S on the others. From throw you can get meaty 214H (but you sacrifice damage) and off certain RRC combos it seems like you can get meaty 421H, but in general I'm struggling to find good options. Maybe she is going to end up a character that basically has to YRC in order to get good oki

[redsilversnake]

About that combo, turns out that you can do 4S>236S afterward in the corner for a bit more damage. You do sacrifice potential okizeme options, though, and the timing isn't exactly lenient, so use it at your own discretion.

49 minutes ago, drunkards_walk said:

I was thinking about using this as well, but it seems to me that the Oki offered from this combo is not good at all and cam be escaped quite easily. In fact that is my main issue right now: I just can't seem to find many solid meterless oki setups. From a 2D you can get a meaty 214H on some characters or meaty 421S on the others. From throw you can get meaty 214H (but you sacrifice damage) and off certain RRC combos it seems like you can get meaty 421H, but in general I'm struggling to find good options. Maybe she is going to end up a character that basically has to YRC in order to get good oki

You can get fish meaty, or at least close enough to practically be meaty, without YRC off of almost anything. In the above combo specifically, a slightly delayed 214K will catch the opponent doing probably anything.

[drunkards_walk]

In the corner K Fish seems to work, but not mid screen (I mention this because I've seen people try to use it mid screen). Maybe I'm just off on my timing, but mid screen it seems H Fish is best on slower characters (Elph, Bedman, Leo, etc) whereas Ice Spike will work for the rest. While this isn't terrible it to me is a bit disappointing. I suppose maybe she will need to pressure in order to get meter, at which point she gets really scary. In the corner I've been going with stuff, 2D, 236S, RRC, 421H, IAD, j.H, j.236K, j.H, 236H. In the Discord chat it was said to be universal and it does solid damage while setting up nice 421H oki. 

[redsilversnake]

For those who might not know, Kazuki and Daiji's Twitter accounts are good spots to check for combos and tech.

[xlolxlolx]

midscreen w/e>s spike>dash tk k bubble>j.hs>dash charged 6hs>s knife>6p>6hs

corner w/e s spike>dash charged 6hs>hs knife>nj.hs>p bubble>max delay whiff j.p>dash charged 6hs>hs knife>nj.hs>p bubble>max delay whiff j.p>dash charged 6hs>hs spike

go ham boys

[Kaneykane]

 

Some more tech utilising K bubble.

[Dreiko]

3 hours ago, Kaneykane said:

 

Some more tech utilising K bubble.

When nearish to the corner, there's enough time to dash up and add a final 6H in the end there, I find that as her best oki ender, she always gets meaty 214K off of it.

[Moy_X7]

Nice find Kaneykane, looks like there's still lots of room for discovery.

As for the whole oki subject, seems like 6H ender is the best way to get oki. Pretty sure you can get a meaty 421S after 236H enders if you delays it a bit though.

[pikapika212]

10 hours ago, Kaneykane said:

 

Some more tech utilising K bubble.

time to hit the lab :p

[Ririshii]

Probably already discussed and/or found elsewhere, but it never hurts to have a few sources for the same stuff.  But yeah, midscreen bubble stuff that doesn't require meter.  Leads to several options for ender depending on what you want, works on crouchers, etc.  Probably something more optimal while still giving oki, although I don't think I've seen anything like that that doesn't require meter.

[Zeromus_X]

Any good examples of Dizzy's neutral game floating around yet? Maybe from high level players like Kazuki? Combos and setups are great but right now it seems like I have to just run away and hope somebody blocks something because everyone else's normals are superior.

[redsilversnake]

28 minutes ago, Zeromus_X said:

Any good examples of Dizzy's neutral game floating around yet? Maybe from high level players like Kazuki? Combos and setups are great but right now it seems like I have to just run away and hope somebody blocks something because everyone else's normals are superior.

There's apparently been talk on Twitter, but what I've mainly seen is just the players I actually follow (Makkii, Daiji, and Kazuki) talking about how different she is, with implications that unlearning stuff from previous games might be necessary.

I think the reason combos and setups are better known right now is a mix of them being easier to show in videos and many of the better players still being mostly in training mode for the first couple of days. Daiji did share a site that seems to cover some stuff for Dizzy, though, including basic concepts for neutral.

[Kain_Dizengarth]

Some combos that a like to use, some combos that I've seen in other videos are character specific or really easy to mess up, I try to use things that are less specific and easier to do.

And its me of Dizzy's normals aren't that great? most of the time I feel that is hart to poke cause end up trading, and the summons are a bit too slow I think, everyone can react to them on neutral, even pot can easily flick them. I've been playing her since X and now I feel thats really different now, and the stuff she is missing really affect the way you have to play her

[Zeidust]

Has anybody played around with the oki properties of holding 421H YRC letting the projectiles sit and wait while you spawn fish and bubbles? I know impractical for a full hold.  But off a hard knockdown + YRC.. you could get two set up before recovery.  I also ran into a weird glitch I recreated where usually letting go of HS releases the knives to their target.. but i let it go and got full use of my HS and they released on their own after time holding expired. I can't recreate it.   

[DaiDensetsu]

4 hours ago, Zeidust said:

Has anybody played around with the oki properties of holding 421H YRC letting the projectiles sit and wait while you spawn fish and bubbles? I know impractical for a full hold.  But off a hard knockdown + YRC.. you could get two set up before recovery.  I also ran into a weird glitch I recreated where usually letting go of HS releases the knives to their target.. but i let it go and got full use of my HS and they released on their own after time holding expired. I can't recreate it.   

I tried it and I think its very technical. If you use normals as starters while holding HS be sure not to hold backward or you will get FD. I think you can use outside of oki but its hard to control the character while holding hs unless you have experience with characters like Zato.

[DaiDensetsu]

Hello everyone,  I hope I can help you figuring how to play dizzy by this. 

 

Please note that other ways of playing may be viable but I'm trying to get the less risky way theoretically  regardless of matchups and other factors. 

First of all, dizzy's normals are not fast but got some range so its better not to be very close to your opponent. So its better to be at mid-range when poking. I think many of the specials are not safe as enders or could be interrupted, so I think the best choice would be jump cancelling and positioning using her mobility. You can generally maneuver and position using the mobility. 

The early game looks like an uphill battle. You must keep your opponent away from you. You can use bubbles and hit them to help you if you got some space. Bubbles can cover the ground by pressing down. 

After getting at least 25% of tension, you can use specials yrc to turn the tide for you and I think the character is yrc heavy. 

Here are list of specials with yrc:

1-Bubbles yrc hit: great for defending.

2-pillars yrc: If hit you can go for combo/setup/position and putting other specials. If blocked you can go for mixup/position and specials. If it whiffs you may return to the early state but at least you made it safe.

3-projectile yrc: great for defending with almost no startup, may help for setting other specials.

4-spear yrc: The s version is great and fast, may lead to mixup in some situations , I don't know about how to apply this generally  but there are limitless options to use. Use your imagination (example: ice spike yrc>pillar for safety). HS version can be held and yrcing it without holding hs is similar to the s version but if you hold hs, you can keep holding and pressing the remaining buttons to yrc, the spears will remain in the air unless you end holding hs or the time ends. You can move and do almost anything while holding them in the air, I think its a strong move if used properly. 

5-fish yrc: for p and k versions it may give you space and you might put other specials. 

H and HS versions yrc are good for covering either air or ground but you have to deal with opponents that try to challenge it.  Mix it with D version to confuse your opponent. Also I think D fish yrc is very good, if they hit it you might combo/position and if they did nothing you can go for a mixup.

Overdrives are ok. S can be used for as anti-air or combos. P can reflect projectiles and good to keep very close opponents away. HS uses all the tension which is needed for yrc but I believe it can be useful for some situations and not impractical (example: fish> overdrive while opponent hits fish).

I'm no expert at and I didn't cover every aspect but I hope this helps you to play the character. Of course, this is not the only way to play and you can play other ways like risky or offensive.

 

 

[redsilversnake]

Bit of advice: Do NOT autopilot special cancels in blockstrings against certain characters. I've tested with Sol, Ky, and Sin, and they can all easily hit Dizzy out of any special she does after 5H or 2D. Others likely can too, but I've yet to test them. But basically, just don't special cancel against certain characters at all when they're blocking unless you can YRC whatever it is you use.

1 hour ago, DaiDensetsu said:

Hello everyone,  I hope I can help you figuring how to play dizzy by this. 

 

Please note that other ways of playing may be viable but I'm trying to get the less risky way theoretically  regardless of matchups and other factors. 

First of all, dizzy's normals are not fast but got some range so its better not to be very close to your opponent. So its better to be at mid-range when poking. I think many of the specials are not safe as enders or could be interrupted, so I think the best choice would be jump cancelling and positioning using her mobility. You can generally maneuver and position using the mobility. 

The early game looks like an uphill battle. You must keep your opponent away from you. You can use bubbles and hit them to help you if you got some space. Bubbles can cover the ground by pressing down. 

After getting at least 25% of tension, you can use specials yrc to turn the tide for you and I think the character is yrc heavy. 

Here are list of specials with yrc:

1-Bubbles yrc hit: great for defending.

2-pillars yrc: If hit you can go for combo/setup/position and putting other specials. If blocked you can go for mixup/position and specials. If it whiffs you may return to the early state but at least you made it safe.

3-projectile yrc: great for defending with almost no startup, may help for setting other specials.

4-spear yrc: The s version is great and fast, may lead to mixup in some situations , I don't know about how to apply this generally  but there are limitless options to use. Use your imagination (example: ice spike yrc>pillar for safety). HS version can be held and yrcing it without holding hs is similar to the s version but if you hold hs, you can keep holding and pressing the remaining buttons to yrc, the spears will remain in the air unless you end holding hs or the time ends. You can move and do almost anything while holding them in the air, I think its a strong move if used properly. 

5-fish yrc: for p and k versions it may give you space and you might put other specials. 

H and HS versions yrc are good for covering either air or ground but you have to deal with opponents that try to challenge it.  Mix it with D version to confuse your opponent. Also I think D fish yrc is very good, if they hit it you might combo/position and if they did nothing you can go for a mixup.

Overdrives are ok. S can be used for as anti-air or combos. P can reflect projectiles and good to keep very close opponents away. HS uses all the tension which is needed for yrc but I believe it can be useful for some situations and not impractical (example: fish> overdrive while opponent hits fish).

I'm no expert at and I didn't cover every aspect but I hope this helps you to play the character. Of course, this is not the only way to play and you can play other ways like risky or offensive.

You really shouldn't try poking with Dizzy. I've lost plenty of times in situations I would've won with Elphelt (well, pre-patch, anyway); her air-to-ground game seems fine, and j.K has even worked a surprising number of times for me in air-to-air, but, as far as I can tell, she will lose the ground poke game almost every time.

She does indeed seem reliant on YRC, though. But regarding 421HS, you actually don't even need to hold HS; depending on your timing, you can let go of it and the spear(s) will still stay in place unless you press it or until they fire automatically. It can be especially good with two or three out, since there will be times one will fire while the other one or two remain in place. And even if you don't wanna risk throwing out an HS move, you could always just throw out a faster normal and press it during the animation.

Regarding her supers, Imperial Ray is very useful for clearing the screen and forcing the opponent to block (I've personally had decent success with it against Venom, for instance). As for Gamma Ray, the only practical use I've seen for it is to kill with chip damage against an opponent that's low on health.