[CS1] Rachel Info and Discussion

[Tari]

It looks like a lot of her moves prorate a lot, now, not just George. George is just the worst.

In one of the videos, 5cdc 236b dash 6a32146c did ~2.5k damage, and the attempt to catch the other player falling out of the super with a 3c into frog whiffed (not sure if that was from a flawed execution or just the game saying 'no' to George).

Meeh. Still hoping that people figure out some way of using her.

[killionaire]

When a character has to go for time out to win, it speaks volume.

RIP

Then again, timeouts in general have increased in frequency...

I wouldn't call it yet unless we get a good ratio of timeout wins to non-timeout wins for each character..

Of course, being the one who compiles the information and thus having the most credibility out of anyone here, I would assume that you probably have a good estimate of timeout wins right now.

[Lastblade]

have timed out 100% of the time versus Hazama with rachel lol. Also, If hazama hits you with his ground super (not flip kick one) and you have poles on him, even after you get hit by his super, you have plenty of time to baden baden him for free.

[Tari]

have timed out 100% of the time versus Hazama with rachel lol.

Also, If hazama hits you with his ground super (not flip kick one) and you have poles on him, even after you get hit by his super, you have plenty of time to baden baden him for free.

That... sucks for Hazama, and sounds like it would hurt him quite a bit (an unprorated Baden Baden still looks fairly decent with enough poles).

[Kuuhaku]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5yZ4879ABw

Either A lobelia does less damage, or George got a health buff. I thought it was weird in another video where George survived an ice sword.

Lobelia now bounce off of hits instead of absorbing the hit and continuing on.

2:50- 5C C wall bounce can combo back into 5C C wall bounce, though it might only work for one rep.

Did TD always have that giant pumpkin? Also, yeah, TD looks really easy to block. It's a good thing it's safe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XKsBol-Fro

Rachel can OTG with the frog! ^_^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkNgzDvyu3s

Yeah, apparently she can only win via timeouts now. e_e; Eeeh... well... a win's a win. Lol @ escaping by going off screen at the end.

The only reason she got this far (3rd place, must have been a small tourney) is because her first match was a mirror match.

[killionaire]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5yZ4879ABw

Either A lobelia does less damage, or George got a health buff. I thought it was weird in another video where George survived an ice sword.

Lobelia now bounce off of hits instead of absorbing the hit and continuing on.

2:50- 5C C wall bounce can combo back into 5C C wall bounce, though it might only work for one rep.

Did TD always have that giant pumpkin? Also, yeah, TD looks really easy to block. It's a good thing it's safe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XKsBol-Fro

Rachel can OTG with the frog! ^_^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkNgzDvyu3s

Yeah, apparently she can only win via timeouts now. e_e; Eeeh... well... a win's a win. Lol @ escaping by going off screen at the end.

The only reason she got this far (3rd place, must have been a small tourney) is because her first match was a mirror match.

From what I'm seeing, in CS we have to be even more patient than before in setting up our tools to initiate a proper rushdown. Considering that now it takes more time to do so and everyone's damage is lowered, 60 seconds just doesn't seem to be enough time..

Either that, or the players have absolutely no idea what to do and are just using whatever they still have left from CT. In which case, they are playing very cautiously... Quite understandable, if you ask me.

[bamfalu]

to be fair, when ct first came out, several of the vids that i saw ended in timeouts or close to that, with most characters. at this point, the preponderance of timeout wins is probably mostly due to people getting used to changes. now, if in a month or so, if rachel's still just winning through timeout, then there's probably a serious problem ;x

[rurouni572]

I don't know if this was changed between loke tests/release, but does pumpkin no longer have a timer? I only see a timer for george in the videos I've watched so far. Also, again, I haven't played the game yet and probably won't until FFA gets it, but honestly, from the vids, she doesn't look as bad as people are making her out to be. It's not the same Rachel as CT but her zoning seems pretty good still, based off the no pumpkin timer that I may or may not have seen correctly. Who knows. I haven't played enough Rachel in CT to make any sort of credible judgment but in my opinion, being this early in the game (4 days since release) and in the videos seeing her sort of holding her own, there still maybe be a chance!

[Kuuhaku]

No, I believe the pumpkin does still have a cool down timer. I'm pretty sure if you summon a pumpkin, you can't re-summon it until it disappears. Overall, it's been hard to tell. Pumpkin's also a lot more risky to get out because of how slow it is now. It's nice that you're being optimistic though. XD; That's all I'll say. 6B CH is either impossible to combo off of, or the timing is really really strict. I believe in one of the videos against Tsubaki she tried to dash and do 5B, but Tsubaki was able to block. Does anyone else have more info on that?

[ryokoalways]

6B nerf is very bad for two reasons. 1. it seems to be only comboable at close distances (maybe not point blank, but far closer than before). This is a problem because 6B's strength was it's range, and the fact that it's unpunishable at optimum range. Now? it's like any other poke, there is risk involved (and a bad one at that. 6B didn't exactly have fantastic startup) 2. massive nerf on proration. That move got hit hard.

[Kuuhaku]

Haha. I believe there was a discussion on how 6B got used less and less. I guess we're going to be seeing a lot less (or possibly none of it) in CS. Uh... one more question- is 3C 9D still possible? I remember in the loketests it was, but it was very hard to do. But... considering how the final changes match up to the loketests and I haven't seen it used often. 3C still has a longer recovery right? They might be hesitant to use it then... I really have no idea. Hopefully it still gives advantage on block.

[Tari]

If 3c9d doesn't work, would 3c8d?

Also, Lastblade said something about 6b CH only comboing at range if you RC it, so it's really not worth it. I've heard it works at point-blank, too, but he didn't test that.

As someone said in a different thread, she looks like a some sort of zoning/rushdown hybrid right now. No one really seems to know what to do with her, yet. They're all just flipping back and forth between 4-6 hit blockstrings* and breaking away on a 5b to run away and zone.

*none of which are getting through anyone's defenses, by the way, since 4b is still happily slow (it's reminiscent of how people dealt with Noel's 6b overhead), and you can't go from 5b to 2b for any sort of meaningful mixup, especially if 3c9d/8d is gimped into uselessness. More info on 3c stuff would be nice.

[Kuuhaku]

Right now Rachel seems to be having the same problem as Noel where she can't do much against someone who blocks low and has enough reaction time to block switch 4B... which really isn't that hard even if it is like 4 frames faster than it was in CT.

[chun_li1]

From Heart Nanas Noel 1. impression thread. 9) Rachel - She's not very good. Noel can just 3C under a lot of her blockstrings, so she can't really do anything (esp nothing that ends with the seed toss) cause 3C does so much damage. She can cancel j.2C into 2C, but thats super gimmicky and means shes just as unsafe in the end. lolwut? Cant use a lot of blockstrings cuz of (mashy) 3C?

[kro_]

Rachel can OTG with the frog! ^_^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkNgzDvyu3s

Yeah, apparently she can only win via timeouts now. e_e; Eeeh... well... a win's a win. Lol @ escaping by going off screen at the end.

The only reason she got this far (3rd place, must have been a small tourney) is because her first match was a mirror match.

0:32 - 6b CH still puts the opponent in a stagger state. He also canceled it into 236a on hit. Most likely, it's not possible to combo anything else after that unless you RC.

1:12 - Pumpkin disappears on its own ~4-5 sec after last use. I'm not sure if disappearance is based on last use or initial summon.

At around 3:20 in that vid, the Rachel used 5cc to knock Tsubaki on the other side of the screen. I guess 5cc on airborne opponents has knockback now? 4b and the second hit of 5cc definitely take off GP; the red flash indicates it. He seemed to purposefully go for that string many times in order to guard crush the opponent, though you could say he was trying to mix up too (if that slow overhead can be called a mixup).

5cdc > 236b > dash 6a BBL (or 63214d6c) - I think this could become her standard combo into super now. It should work on everyone, hits early in the combo to avoid proration, and allows frog oki because she didn't use the frog during the combo itself.

I still have yet to see anyone try 5cdc > frog > 2b 5b > air combo ending with j.2c. In previous loketest vids, some Rachel player manage to combo j.2c at the end of an air combo. If this works, she should still have some ability to setup oki.

236a's speed and ability to stuff ground approaches was like the only thing they didn't nerf, and the Rachel players in all the videos so far are abusing that for all it's worth. 6a CH doesn't seem to combo unless the opponent is in the corner or got hit really high and deep. Most likely, Rachel will have to use 4d or maybe 7d to combo off 6a CH reliably.

As for a general impression, she's not looking too hot. The slower pumpkin summon and movement speed really hurts her ability to stay out of pressure. It seems very difficult to wind a pumpkin forward and combo into it now to punish things. Because of this, pumpkin becomes more of an annoyance that does no damage rather than a legitimate threat.

It's like she has to use wind just to handle the basic keepaway and pressure that everyone else can do with their decent normals. Then, she has to use wind to deal average combo damage at the lower end of the spectrum. Combine that with the delay in wind regen, loss of wind regen while OTG'd, and forcing her to do air combos instead of ground combos and you get someone who's struggling to do basic things everyone else can using very limited resources. It's just too easy to run her out of wind.

Anyone with good pokes, fast run speed, projectile invulnerability, or their own projectile can get in on her now without much difficulty, which pretty much includes everyone in the cast. Even Jin's ice swords and Noel's optic barrel are effective. That's just sad.

[Tari]

From Heart Nanas Noel 1. impression thread.

9) Rachel - She's not very good. Noel can just 3C under a lot of her blockstrings, so she can't really do anything (esp nothing that ends with the seed toss) cause 3C does so much damage. She can cancel j.2C into 2C, but thats super gimmicky and means shes just as unsafe in the end.

lolwut? Cant use a lot of blockstrings cuz of (mashy) 3C?

Well, to be fair, 3c goes under a lot of Rachel's stuff right now, too. We just happen to have j.2c to squish Noel out of it.

Also, there really doesn't seem to be much in the way of mixup for either Noel or Rachel. Best option is probably to do some sort of aerial approach (j.b j.c?) then either 4b on landing or 5a into 2b/4b.

It feels like there's virtually no way to successfully break through someone's defense if you stay on the ground (not including RC strings), unless they're really slow on reacting to 4b or decide to block high for some reason.

0:32 - 6b CH still puts the opponent in a stagger state. He also canceled it into 236a on hit. Most likely, it's not possible to combo anything else after that unless you RC.

That would fit with what Lastblade mentioned when we bothered him about it.

At around 3:20 in that vid, the Rachel used 5cc to knock Tsubaki on the other side of the screen. I guess 5cc on airborne opponents has knockback now? 4b and the second hit of 5cc definitely take off GP; the red flash indicates it. He seemed to purposefully go for that string many times in order to guard crush the opponent, though you could say he was trying to mix up too (if that slow overhead can be called a mixup).

Hitting airborne opponents with 5cc knocks them to the wall. I think it was listed in one of ryoko's change lists. Not sure I've seen any really good combos with it, though. I think one player did manage to do it then wind a jump after it into a j.b j.c combo.

5cdc > 236b > dash 6a BBL (or 63214d6c) - I think this could become her standard combo into super now. It should work on everyone, hits early in the combo to avoid proration, and allows frog oki because she didn't use the frog during the combo itself.

Still only does 2.5k or so damage, though. Better than nothing, but it looks like our best bet for damage is to get a 4b CH into super or something for the (potential) positive proration on a guard-breaking CH.

I wonder if anyone will find some way to get a 3-pole setup.

Edit:

Checked the video again and realized the 2.5k was without Rachel being under Tsubaki for the BBL. Considering that the one pole gave around 600 damage and is marked here as 1830 dmg, we can probably assume Rachel's lightning (marked at 1539 dmg) would tack on ~500 dmg, making the total 3k.

...still not very impressive.

I still have yet to see anyone try 5cdc > frog > 2b 5b > air combo ending with j.2c. In previous loketest vids, some Rachel player manage to combo j.2c at the end of an air combo. If this works, she should still have some ability to setup oki.

5cdc -> frog -> 3c (1 hit) 236a causes George to whiff in the corner in one of the other videos.

I'd guess that'd apply to 2b 5b frog combos, too? Unless you've seen it work somewhere. That'd be nice.

Edit:

Have I mentioned that I haven't slept yet? If not, then let me mention that now.

Anyway, now that I actually understand what you wrote (as opposed to thinking 'sj 8d dj j.2c'), I'm going to defer to what Soniti wrote below.

236a's speed and ability to stuff ground approaches was like the only thing they didn't nerf, and the Rachel players in all the videos so far are abusing that for all it's worth. 6a CH doesn't seem to combo unless the opponent is in the corner or got hit really high and deep. Most likely, Rachel will have to use 4d or maybe 7d to combo off 6a CH reliably.

Yay, 236a~.

A number of videos show Rachel players comboing 5b off of 6a CH. 6a CH -> 6a is apparently nigh impossible now, though.

As for a general impression, she's not looking too hot. The slower pumpkin summon and movement speed really hurts her ability to stay out of pressure. It seems very difficult to wind a pumpkin forward and combo into it now to punish things. Because of this, pumpkin becomes more of an annoyance that does no damage rather than a legitimate threat.

It's like she has to use wind just to handle the basic keepaway and pressure that everyone else can do with their decent normals. Then, she has to use wind to deal average combo damage at the lower end of the spectrum. Combine that with the delay in wind regen, loss of wind regen while OTG'd, and forcing her to do air combos instead of ground combos and you get someone who's struggling to do basic things everyone else can using very limited resources. It's just too easy to run her out of wind.

I'd totally forgotten she didn't regen wind while OTG. :8/:

But at least we get to slide George along the ground while we do our combos and blockstrings, I guess, and crossup air iris seems like silly fun.

[Kuuhaku]

Lobelias bounce when taking a hit. George seems to activate faster too since she can now air throw people into him. George's health buff is also nice considering that Rachel needs everything she can get.

5cdc > 236b > dash 6a BBL (or 63214d6c) might not work on everyone. I think on Nu, and... uh... Litchi, 236B whiffs unless you used 5B B before hand (which is no longer possible). Then again they might of changed the hitbox? Or 2B 5B might make it hit.

I think from 2/3th screen and less 5C C wall bounce (it only does wall bounce if their air borne) can combo back into 5C C wall bounce. I'm not sure if you can do more than one rep though. 2C 2D 5C C wall bounce is also an actual combo now outside of 2C needing a CH.

Also, it's funny you said that kro. I've seen two videos of her getting owned by optic barrel and ice sword/ice car spam. It's really not that hard to get in on her if even a crappy Jin can do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-WRye2hzR4

... Did the hit box for Rachel when she summons George change? Because it's really weird that her summoning George made ice car whiff.

[Tari]

@Polka:

She could actually air-throw people into George in CT, too, pending that he didn't hop out of the way. Pulling him out directly under your opponent, then jumping up and airgrabbing will combo a lot of the time (not sure what the exact timing is for George hopping back under you after you toss him, but it's pretty close to that).

Also, really random, but does anyone know if Jin's D Ice Car still combos on Rachel?

[Kuuhaku]

Unless his D ice car got changed, probably. Rachel's OTG hitbox doesn't seem to have gotten changed (though considering how little damage she does, having it shortened would have been nice so people can't do stupid damage to her). *tries to think of other tools Rachel might still have* I'd personally like to see a top player in Japan try her out, but there are Game Chariot videos up have Shadow... and all of them are Shadow playing Bang. I'm guessing that shows what he thinks of the new Rachel.

[Soniti]

@kro: she can't end air combos with j.2c anymore. You can't cancel the j.2c to anything so you just land and get punished.

[Kuuhaku]

@kro: she can't end air combos with j.2c anymore. You can't cancel the j.2c to anything so you just land and get punished.

Wait... j2C doesn't special cancel anymore? I thought it could still special cancel and cancel into 2C.

[Tari]

As far as I know, j.2c cancels into specials and 2c on landing. Not sure about in the air.

I'm a bit curious if BBL sj 8d dj j.2dc (land) 214a is still combo-able or worth trying to do in CS. I've yet to see a successful execution of BBL 214a 3c, but it's apparently possible, so I'm assuming that a level 3 j.2c will be able to combo into a frog as well?

Also, level 2 and 3 j.2c are cancellable into both normals and specials (same as they are in CT), correct? Or was the difference between those and the level 1 j.2c something else?

[wuku]

As far as I know, j.2c cancels into specials and 2c on landing. Not sure about in the air.

I'm a bit curious if BBL sj 8d dj j.2dc (land) 214a is still combo-able or worth trying to do in CS. I've yet to see a successful execution of BBL 214a 3c, but it's apparently possible, so I'm assuming that a level 3 j.2c will be able to combo into a frog as well?

Also, level 2 and 3 j.2c are cancellable into both normals and specials (same as they are in CT), correct? Or was the difference between those and the level 1 j.2c something else?

That combo should work and worth to do. 2k dmg of j2c lvl 3 is highest dmg rachel can do now. The only move she does more than 2k is new dd with 4 winds.

Although lvl 2 and lvl 3 are cancellable, it's still meaningless.

[Soniti]

Not until you land. So opponent lands, gets up, and you have 2 primary options, 2c or 236a. That's a BAD situation for you. Regarding level 2 and 3 j.2c, they are still only special cancelable, and still only on landing. See my BB:CS combo thread for an application of this in BBCS.

[Tari]

Ah. I thought at some point level 2 and 3 were less nerfed than level 1 j.2c, but I suppose they've all been made equal. No more level 2 j.2c into air combos, then.