[CS1] Rachel Info and Discussion

[Tari]

ima try to for a while, but i can tell i'll be switching at some point. it seems like alot of the rachel players are goin to tsubaki, wonder why that is. is it cuz she's a rushdown char? i'm considering hazama because i wear a hat like his.

*jumped ship, currently swimming towards tsubaki boat*

RIP Rachel :/

Tsubaki's boat isn't much higher out of the water than Rachel's, but at least it's not sinking.

Rushdown char is my main reason. Also her followups look like melty whiff cancels

As far as what game I'd play instead? Probably other genres :P

Rushdown, here, too.

Other genres? MMOs (FFXIV)? FPS (Battlefield BC2)?

[Soniti]

This is rather off topic for this thread but oh well, nobody cares about Rachel anymore anyway! Not MMOs - I don't need a time sink right now. Probably FPS/RTS (SCII eventually!)/Heroes of Newerth now.

[Darlos9D]

Looks like the Rachel player base is going to be changing completely, huh? I'm strictly a Tager player, but I've always liked Rachel as a character, so I was a tidbit concerned when it seemed like her nerfs might have been overkill. While I agree what she could do in CT was retarded, I also didn't want to see one of my favorite story characters get buried. I've had a chance to see a good amount of recent Rachel playing by people who have seem to figure her out, and (obviously) she's taken a turn towards projectile spam. Thing is? This doesn't bother me in the least bit. To be perfectly honest, when I first picked her up in CT, I initially felt that, based off of her multitudinous projectile and "landmine" moves, that this is exactly how she could be played. But, then everyone figured out that she, due to bad design, was better of just fishing for a counter-fork, pushing the opponent into the corner, and then doing the blockstring from hell. This of course turned her into a rushdown character immediately, with her projectiles basically just supplementing both the rushdown and the corner bullshit. Now, I feel like she's been retooled to be what she was initially intended to be: projectile spam. What's more, I feel like that tactic fits her personality the most, where she just plays keep-away and laughs at you. So I actually welcome our new (more balanced) Nu with open arms. Hell, I might even pick her up once I get the game.

[Tari]

...

Now, I feel like she's been retooled to be what she was initially intended to be: projectile spam. What's more, I feel like that tactic fits her personality the most, where she just plays keep-away and laughs at you. So I actually welcome our new (more balanced) Nu with open arms. Hell, I might even pick her up once I get the game.

Nu?

Whatever the case, you have to remember that Rachel's projectiles are less safe and less useful than they were in CT. She was retooled away from rushdown, certainly, but from all appearances, the large majority of her zoning game has been nerfed as well ('cept for 236a).

Also, fishing for the counter-fork is an easy way to lose in CT. xD I should know~.

[killionaire]

Looks like the Rachel player base is going to be changing completely, huh?

I'm strictly a Tager player, but I've always liked Rachel as a character, so I was a tidbit concerned when it seemed like her nerfs might have been overkill. While I agree what she could do in CT was retarded, I also didn't want to see one of my favorite story characters get buried.

I've had a chance to see a good amount of recent Rachel playing by people who have seem to figure her out, and (obviously) she's taken a turn towards projectile spam. Thing is? This doesn't bother me in the least bit. To be perfectly honest, when I first picked her up in CT, I initially felt that, based off of her multitudinous projectile and "landmine" moves, that this is exactly how she could be played. But, then everyone figured out that she, due to bad design, was better of just fishing for a counter-fork, pushing the opponent into the corner, and then doing the blockstring from hell. This of course turned her into a rushdown character immediately, with her projectiles basically just supplementing both the rushdown and the corner bullshit.

Now, I feel like she's been retooled to be what she was initially intended to be: projectile spam. What's more, I feel like that tactic fits her personality the most, where she just plays keep-away and laughs at you. So I actually welcome our new (more balanced) Nu with open arms. Hell, I might even pick her up once I get the game.

I personally saw her as a character that could do both, but required a good implementation of both in order to be able to get anything done.

Now, the thing with what you are saying that is that we could go for a zoning strategy.. Well, we tried that, until we realized that our pumpkin is practically useless, and our long range lobelia shots got nerfed.

Even our zoning is actually pretty subpar right now. Being a Tager player, you may not realize this immediately, but our zoning really was never meant to take chunks of life off of the opponent...

Yeah, our rushing needed nerfs, no doubt about that. However, I didn't want it to get nerfed to the point where it's almost impractical.

[Kuuhaku]

Nu?

Whatever the case, you have to remember that Rachel's projectiles are less safe and less useful than they were in CT. She was retooled away from rushdown, certainly, but from all appearances, the large majority of her zoning game has been nerfed as well ('cept for 236a).

Also, fishing for the counter-fork is an easy way to lose in CT. xD I should know~.

Yeah, a lot of people see Rachel's stuff and just think broken because they're on the losing end of it, but really a lot of the tactics that people complain about are impractical against people who know what they're doing. 6B fishing is an example of that.

j2C spam is also fancy, but 5B 6CD does the same job with more damage. Both were primarily for forcing the opponent into the corner where she could lock down. But IMO that's really no different than Litchi's 6C loop.

It's not our fault that Tager didn't have an anti air and lost to jA spam.

[Xtra_Zero]

Know what Rachel needs? Lobelia and Sword Iris FRCs.

[choysauce]

i think if they just brought back at least the old pumpkin's attributes, and normal cancelable j2c, she'd be playable. just those 2 things i understand all the damage nerfs, i remember winning rounds with just using 2 combos against people in the corner, who weren't familiar with her setups. why coudln't they at least give us a longer ranged normal if they did all this to rachel gotta just wait till the next BB

[Darlos9D]

FRC

NO, SHUT UP

I personally saw her as a character that could do both, but required a good implementation of both in order to be able to get anything done.

Now, the thing with what you are saying that is that we could go for a zoning strategy.. Well, we tried that, until we realized that our pumpkin is practically useless, and our long range lobelia shots got nerfed.

Even our zoning is actually pretty subpar right now. Being a Tager player, you may not realize this immediately, but our zoning really was never meant to take chunks of life off of the opponent...

Yeah, our rushing needed nerfs, no doubt about that. However, I didn't want it to get nerfed to the point where it's almost impractical.

Well, I suppose I didn't intend to suggest a 100% zoning strategy, since it seems like nobody is capable of that anymore. I called her the new Nu, but even Lambda isn't the new Nu. So I guess ignore that.

Also, I'm no expert on rushdowns, but I figure as long as you can run in with some decent high/low games, Rachel's rushdown will be alright. And I think I've seen that in videos. It's just that while waiting for a rushdown opportunities you have to know how to throw around her various ranged attacks correctly.

i think if they just brought back at least the old pumpkin's attributes, and normal cancelable j2c, she'd be playable. just those 2 things

Ah... no. The pumpkin let her run in with impunity and j2c had an obnoxious habit of being completely safe for her even on block. These were both infuriating things.

[Tari]

NO, SHUT UP

Well, I suppose I didn't intend to suggest a 100% zoning strategy, since it seems like nobody is capable of that anymore. I called her the new Nu, but even Lambda isn't the new Nu. So I guess ignore that.

Also, I'm no expert on rushdowns, but I figure as long as you can run in with some decent high/low games, Rachel's rushdown will be alright. And I think I've seen that in videos. It's just that while waiting for a rushdown opportunities you have to know how to throw around her various ranged attacks correctly.

Ah... no. The pumpkin let her run in with impunity and j2c had an obnoxious habit of being completely safe for her even on block. These were both infuriating things.

Pumpkin was incredibly useful.

j.2c needed a nerf. They just nerfed it to all hell.

Rachel does not have viable high/low-mixup approaches, so her rushdown is dead. 6a is nerfed, 6b is nerfed, 236b/c on reaction is gone, etc.

Rushdown and zoning are both nerfed. If they'd nerfed one and not the other, or nerfed everything a more reasonable amount, she'd be fine. As it is, she's quite difficult to play well.

[Kuuhaku]

6b is nerfed

No. 6B is gone. There's pretty much no reason to use that move ever.

[Xtra_Zero]

NO, SHUT UP

Joking dude. Chill.

Ah... no. The pumpkin let her run in with impunity and j2c had an obnoxious habit of being completely safe for her even on block. These were both infuriating things.

Pumpkin is SUPPOSED to do that. It's Rachel's ONLY decent approach. It's supposed to be really good.

The trick to beating j.2C (or almost any overhead for that matter) is not to block and punish, but to predict and beat it out. I can't think of any other character that has a punishable overhead. Characters with good head-invulnerable moves can beat it cleanly even in the tightest Rachel blockstrings (Hakumen 6A, Ragna ID, Jin DPs, etc.).

[Xtra_Zero]

About 6B, can someone confirm that it doesn't chain into ANYTHING anymore? Before it was useful in combos to do a little more damage and to space properly for lobelia after CDC, but when I played at AI it seemed like you couldn't do ANYTHING after it...

[Tari]

About 6B, can someone confirm that it doesn't chain into ANYTHING anymore? Before it was useful in combos to do a little more damage and to space properly for lobelia after CDC, but when I played at AI it seemed like you couldn't do ANYTHING after it...

You can try cancelling it into a special (??), but I believe it's a listed change that 6b can't cancel into normals anymore.

[Kuuhaku]

That. But try to weed 5B B CDC out of your habits. Otherwise you'll be holding out the fork and looking stupid.

[zeech]

In Melty I really liked how Aoko had mines that she could leave on the screen, that would automatically hit the opponent if they touched them. She could do cool things like set up mines and throw the enemy into them for juggle combos, and seal off areas of the screen, etc. She also had some mines that you could hold and set off manually. I think its a bit of a shame that Rachel's lightning poles seem much more awkward to use and she doesnt have that kind of zoning gameplay. It might have been interesting if you could hold the button after 236A/B/C and whilst holding the button, the lighting rod will automatically go off if the opponent is touching it, or something like that.

[killionaire]

That. But try to weed 5B B CDC out of your habits. Otherwise you'll be holding out the fork and looking stupid.

I tried to do this even in CT. Mainly cause the extra fork hit may unintentionally knock my opponent out of range of the umbrella.

It was encouraged in CT. Mandatory in CS.

Also, I'd actually have to agree that the pumpkin was a bit too powerful..

Yeah, it did its job extremely well. I have nothing against that, but being able to fling it to your opponent from anywhere on the screen? (or even off-screen)

If they retained its usefulness but toned down its versatility, then I'd be happy.

Anyway, I shouldn't be saying a whole lot. I didn't get a chance to touch CT for a whole month now. I'm pretty much back down to square one when it comes to practicing.

[Spirit Juice]

About 6B, can someone confirm that it doesn't chain into ANYTHING anymore? Before it was useful in combos to do a little more damage and to space properly for lobelia after CDC, but when I played at AI it seemed like you couldn't do ANYTHING after it...

You can cancel it into specials, but not normals.

[choysauce]

You can cancel it into specials, but not normals.

only when u hit the ground though, otherwise i'd be canceling that shit into pumpkins all day long.

do you guys know if the 2b 5b 6cd j.c combo would work? thats the only OLD combo i can think of that might possibly do a decent amount of damage.

and 5b can cancel into 4b back to 5b right? i

'll just overhead and pumpkin down 3 winds to guard break lol

[k4polo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QhkQDJ6z9s

I post it here too. That is some bs. They need to fix that badly. I don't play Rachel but that is pretty bad. I wonder what other combos can be put on Rachel.

If what I saw was true. She indeed may be truely bottom in the end unfortunately.

[Soniti]

I believe you can do 5d 5a from 6b on counterhit only.

[GenoWhirl]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QhkQDJ6z9s

I post it here too. That is some bs. They need to fix that badly. I don't play Rachel but that is pretty bad. I wonder what other combos can be put on Rachel.

If what I saw was true. She indeed may be truely bottom in the end unfortunately.

Does that player have no sense of decency or what ;-;

[Kuuhaku]

That's not Rachel specific, but there are other bullshit combos that are *cough*Litchi 6C loop*cough*. Taokaka's BS damage off of counter hit 6C is known, but really there's not much that Rachel can do about it because her normals are so slow. Taokaka can just sit there and bait an approach and if she tries to summon something, press D.

[kro_]

Upon further inspection, what I said about frogs not being able to be winded backwards is false. Apparently, you can only wind the frog in the current direction of the opponent.

[Xtra_Zero]

Upon further inspection, what I said about frogs not being able to be winded backwards is false. Apparently, you can only wind the frog in the current direction of the opponent.

Relative to George? Or relative to Rachel?