[CS1] Lambda General Discussion

[Arcade Fire87]

Honestly, I think 4B kinda sucks. The chance of getting CH with it is so small. Why would you guys want to risk doing a crappy 2000 damage that could get you smacked with someone else's 4000 damage combo plus them playing oki games on you now? 2147D is so safe now and it breaks guard, and with meter it's nice damage. Plus you have the threat of ~C to have great mixups and leave them less room to breathe

[ZONG_one]

Honestly, I think 4B kinda sucks. The chance of getting CH with it is so small. Why would you guys want to risk doing a crappy 2000 damage that could get you smacked with someone else's 4000 damage combo plus them playing oki games on you now?

2147D is so safe now and it breaks guard, and with meter it's nice damage. Plus you have the threat of ~C to have great mixups and leave them less room to breathe

This is what I was trying to get at.

Plus, hit confirm > RC adds a completely new level to TK scorpion.

If they block TK Scorpion, you're safe.

If they block 4B, you're raped.

Lol, Tager can IB the first hit and 720 you out of the 2nd.

[zaeris]

4B > 2C > j.C > j.2C > dj.C > j.2C > j.214D - 2835 Damage

CH 4B > Dash Cross Over > 2DD > 6C > Dash > 2DD > 2147D > 5DD > 6DD > 2DD > j.DD > dj.2DD > j.214D - 3421 Damage

The second combo is possible from non CH 4B but it's very spacing specific.

Anyway I'd rather use other things over 4B, it's very high risk and for 3400 damage (and that's moslty on CH) it's also a pretty low reward.

The meter it will cost me to RC it on block could be better used.

your numbers dont add up since from experience the first combo barely reaches 2k easily while I'm trying to search for a vid to show its exact value but its been harder then expected. However I would like to say that a damage that equals 3k is not small by any means and also tension-less makes it better. You will need to explain why you would think its low reward where people guessing wrong 4 times means gg.

[tuka]

your numbers dont add up since from experience the first combo barely reaches 2k easily while I'm trying to search for a vid to show its exact value but its been harder then expected. However I would like to say that a damage that equals 3k is not small by any means and also tension-less makes it better. You will need to explain why you would think its low reward where people guessing wrong 4 times means gg.

Not to question your personal experience but I wrote those numbers down moments after performing those combos (while getting 8 hits from every C attack), so It's pretty legit.

Why is it low reward? you said it yourself, guessing is the key word here.

A guessing game that in one way leads me to a 3K combo, second way to a really painful punish on block, and third way to trade half my meter for safety.

On the other hand, I can get my damage from solid pressure and safe mix-ups (blockstrings into 2C > 2147D/~C, 3C, 236B/C, throws etc.) and if I manage to get in, that half meter could greatly assist me in getting to the corner and engaging the corner loop for a ton of damage.

Way more practical than hoping my opponent will get hit by the slow and easy to spot 4B, don't you think?

[zaeris]

Not to question your personal experience but I wrote those numbers down moments after performing those combos (while getting 8 hits from every C attack), so It's pretty legit.

Why is it low reward? you said it yourself, guessing is the key word here.

A guessing game that in one way leads me to a 3K combo, second way to a really painful punish on block, and third way to trade half my meter for safety.

On the other hand, I can get my damage from solid pressure and safe mix-ups (blockstrings into 2C > 2147D/~C, 3C, 236B/C, throws etc.) and if I manage to get in, that half meter could greatly assist me in getting to the corner and engaging the corner loop for a ton of damage.

Way more practical than hoping my opponent will get hit by the slow and easy to spot 4B, don't you think?

While I agree to a point there are less riskier option you did forget to factor that 4b has low invul which can allow a low crush CH into 3.4k if knowing what to punish. But besides that to attribute risk as a guessing game I hesitant to understand the reasoning since all option are based on the mind game of a low/high/throw/frame trap mix up which are all guessing or betting.

4B to me isn't the best move but passable not as a an extreme slow and reactable overhead but something with a low invul property. using it once in a while isn't a bad idea if people don't expect it. beside from tk 2147 D I don't believe 236A/B/C are safe if when people bait it and believe me they will try and come up with some shenanigan to beat it.

Side note 4b combo on low stance to punish slide attacks into a decent 3k tension, I'm curious if i can punish noel 3c with something like a 3k but the thought came across so im going to test it.

[tuka]

While I agree to a point there a less riskier option you did forget to factor that 4b has low invul which can allow a low crush CH into 3.4k if knowing what to punish. But besides that to attribute risk as a guessing game I hesitant to understand the reasoning since all option are based on the mind game of a low/high/throw/frame trap mix up which are all guessing or betting.

4B to me isn't the best move but passable not as a an extreme slow and reactable overhead but something with a low invul property. using it once in a while isn't a bad idea if people don't expect it. beside from tk 2147 D I don't believe 236A/B/C are safe if when people bait it and believe me they will try and come up with some shenanigan to beat it.

Side note 4b combo on low stance to punish slide attacks into a decent 3k tension, I'm curious if i can punish noel 3c with something like a 3k but the thought came across so im going to test it.

Indeed it's all about guessing games, but I'd rather take the safer route, it'll most likely take me longer to get a hit in, but once I do...Lambda can do way more than 3.4K damage.

4B will probably catch them off guard once in a while, it's not completely bad, and yes it has low crush, but so does 2147D and for less risk, so I'll stick with that one.

On the matter of 236A/B/C, I never said they should be thrown out randomly, but in a blockstring B is totally safe, C can be punished on IB but granted it's a hard move to IB, and A is not the safest thing to throw out, but mixing it up from time to time with a throw or 2/3C is nice.

I don't know about punishing with 4B, sometimes even if the first attack hits the second can be blocked, I'm not sure how or why since I barely use it, but I think punishing with CH 2C will lead to better damage, it does need some checking out though.

[zaeris]

Indeed it's all about guessing games, but I'd rather take the safer route, it'll most likely take me longer to get a hit in, but once I do...Lambda can do way more than 3.4K damage.

4B will probably catch them off guard once in a while, it's not completely bad, and yes it has low crush, but so does 2147D and for less risk, so I'll stick with that one.

On the matter of 236A/B/C, I never said they should be thrown out randomly, but in a blockstring B is totally safe, C can be punished on IB but granted it's a hard move to IB, and A is not the safest thing to throw out, but mixing it up from time to time with a throw or 2/3C is nice.

I don't know about punishing with 4B, sometimes even if the first attack hits the second can be blocked, I'm not sure how or why since I barely use it, but I think punishing with CH 2C will lead to better damage, it does need some checking out though.

I believe I've already said it combo on low stance since crouching animation adds enough hit stun for it to combo. Or Ch frames will add enough frames for it to combo. 236A/B/C are relatively safe on block but it has such a long start up people can beat it before it hits which is my issues with the attacks its not a Hell fang which comes out in 14 frames thats for sure.

[Antihippy]

236B seems to be about as good as hell's fang to me. Not to mention it hits low and is actually safe on block. Though you can't really combo with it without meter.

[kriaser]

Since we had a discussion on 4B, I've been meaning to ask, but say, if a 2B > 6B is a CH, doesn't 4B actually combo from the chain? At least that's how I remember it with Nu, unless everyone I've gotten a 6B CH on just decided to not block afterwards. Also, a generally safe way to use 4B is if you did a 5C[x] mash > 4B. That way, you pushed them back a short distance so that they may not be able to land a proper hit. Of course, it's not 100% safe, such as when against Haku, he can still sweep you.

[mAc Chaos]

If you mean getting sweeped out of 4B, it's actually low invulnerable, I think, since I've tried to sweep you a lot only to have her twirl above my sword.

[kriaser]

If you mean getting sweeped out of 4B, it's actually low invulnerable, I think, since I've tried to sweep you a lot only to have her twirl above my sword.

Not swept out of, just after it. 4B has a decent recovery time on block, so even if I 5C[x] > 4B, if you blocked properly you could mash out a sweep. You, as in Haku.

[pulsr]

On crouching tager her 5b bnb does like 4-5k. Hit confirm crouchers into 4b is worth it.

[Dangle]

4B > 2C > j.C > j.2C > dj.C > j.2C > j.214D - 2835 Damage

CH 4B > Dash Cross Over > 2DD > 6C > Dash > 2DD > 2147D > 5DD > 6DD > 2DD > j.DD > dj.2DD > j.214D - 3421 Damage

The second combo is possible from non CH 4B but it's very spacing specific.

Anyway I'd rather use other things over 4B, it's very high risk and for 3400 damage (and that's moslty on CH) it's also a pretty low reward.

The meter it will cost me to RC it on block could be better used.

4B is a great move to use sparingly though, because of how little its usually expected if you use it right, not taking risks and playing that safe can usually lead to really really long matches against characters that it shouldn't be, such as bang, in that instance the longer you try to be safe and land a hit, the more chance you yourself are gonna get wrecked, the best thing to do with 4b is get meaty timing down on the second hit of it, the part thats actually the overhead. the best setup i've used for this is after a knockdown with something like 3C, you toss out 236A instead of B, and at the end throw out 4B, if you do it right the second hit of 4B should always meaty. Its nice to take that risk every now and then.

[zaeris]

Not swept out of, just after it. 4B has a decent recovery time on block, so even if I 5C[x] > 4B, if you blocked properly you could mash out a sweep. You, as in Haku.

You do say the most funniest thing sometimes, if you're insinuating that 4b is punishable then yes you are correct but unfortunately hakumen can do more damaging thing then just sweeping you after blocking your 4b and punishing with 3c

However I'm looking for a practical low stance combo which might utilize the combo potential of lambda 4b as an essential ground tension combo requiring stance confirmation much like playing Jin, registering your opponent’s stance and following up with the right combo. Unless everyone is happy with 2c 6c 236b ... with the lol damage.

p.s if you take this offensively for whatever reason, its because I'm bored.

On crouching tager her 5b bnb does like 4-5k. Hit confirm crouchers into 4b is worth it.

Would you look to post a combo showing a 4b starter dealing 4-5k damage or are you refering to something written within the lambda combo list?

[kriaser]

You see, Lambda isn't about heavy hitting combos unless you have a RC or you land that 236C. Everything else she has is pretty much small damage to build meter and to break primers until you land that amazing one combo. To break low guard, your best bet is going to be 2147D. You can make 4B safe by using 236D > dash > 4B. But even then, meh. You only have to low guard the first hit of 236D anyway. Also, 2147D will break a primer. So, if you get 236D blocked, you may as well take off another primer with 2147D.

[Arcade Fire87]

....4B is kinda stupid when 2147 is one of the best overhead/mixups in the entire game. Really can't believe you guys are still debating over it. The only time I'd say, "fuck yeah, use 4B!" is if you feel REAL certain they're going to be attacking low, getting you the counter. Or if you get desparate

[Dangle]

....4B is kinda stupid when 2147 is one of the best overhead/mixups in the entire game.

Really can't believe you guys are still debating over it. The only time I'd say, "fuck yeah, use 4B!" is if you feel REAL certain they're going to be attacking low, getting you the counter. Or if you get desparate

4B when used sparingly adds to your mixup game, anything that can do that isn't stupid.if you can confuse and pressure an opponent to be scared to use lows and think harder about what you're doing, its worth using in the right situation.

[Arcade Fire87]

...I didn't say 4b was worthless, I said it's not worth fighting over. It's not comparable to 2147. In CS, it also breaks a primer, you can do a fake out into a low or a fakeout TK into a TK, etc. Hell, maybe a RC in case 4B fails into a mixup is nice too. Truthfully, I'd only use 4B if I think they're attacking low, or if I'm desparate or have little to fear. Sorry, doing a 2000 combo in CS and then getting countered with a 4000 and having your opponent on top of you seems....stupid. I kinda would put it like Jins icecar--high risk/low reward, unless there's an RC involved. I mean, haven't you guys watched the CS vids, it's used SO rarely, for good reason. You don't see people like minori or that taiwan Lambda use it. For good reaons. Not exactly like in CT players like Inoue, Reria, Linkua use it much either. Why use 4B much at all when there's TKs? EDIT: When it comes down to it, I am an internet scrub. But, we do have pulsr in the thread, I can't imagine him using 4B more than once in a blue moon against really crazy good players like Veteru, for example. It seems like once you get to a certain level of opponents 4B is really not that viable of an option. TK's usually much safer and confusing, although it can totally lead to being mashed out of and countered too

[kriaser]

Maybe I'm just being cocky, but I wouldn't regard minori and whatnot as idols or "the best". Just because they don't do something doesn't mean you shouldn't either. Yeah, 4B has a risk to it, but so does everything. It's all a matter of how you use it. You can watch the pros, but don't model yourself after them. If you don't like 4B, sure, don't use it. I, however, love 4B for how it can be combo'd from stuff like 2B and 5C. Mind you, I only really use 4B when I have meter to rapid it, or I have the hp to spare or something to that nature. Remember, everyone is watching the pros. If you model yourself after them, you're at a huge disadvantage already.

[Shiawase]

Are there any combos that remain from v-13 or am I going to have to wait until CS console release to practice Lambda?

[Arcade Fire87]

But Kraiser, you're doing exactly what I suggested, you're using it with an RC to back yourself up. That's fine. And no, I don't think you should model yourself from the pro's, you should develop your own style, but it's still useful references. And I still think they're a good basis to look at the core of your character, how many people look at Kaqn's Ragna to base things on? Doesn't mean they're trying to play as him but he's a useful resource.. Minori isn't the god of Lambda, I was just throwing out a random name. If anything, I thought that recent Taiwan Lambda was so much better

[Antihippy]

Are there any combos that remain from v-13 or am I going to have to wait until CS console release to practice Lambda?

Pretty much, but there are some combos that carry over.

For 236D RC>5DD>6DD etc combo replace 236D with 236B.

Close melee combos are pretty much the same only that you replace them with 236B at the end.

Set opponent to CH state if you want to practice at most 2 reps of the corner loop.

Practice throw dash 6A>6C dash>2DD>2147D

That's about all I know that can be practiced in CT.

[zaeris]

...I didn't say 4b was worthless, I said it's not worth fighting over. It's not comparable to 2147. In CS, it also breaks a primer, you can do a fake out into a low or a fakeout TK into a TK, etc.

Hell, maybe a RC in case 4B fails into a mixup is nice too. Truthfully, I'd only use 4B if I think they're attacking low, or if I'm desparate or have little to fear.

Sorry, doing a 2000 combo in CS and then getting countered with a 4000 and having your opponent on top of you seems....stupid. I kinda would put it like Jins icecar--high risk/low reward, unless there's an RC involved.

I mean, haven't you guys watched the CS vids, it's used SO rarely, for good reason. You don't see people like minori or that taiwan Lambda use it. For good reaons. Not exactly like in CT players like Inoue, Reria, Linkua use it much either. Why use 4B much at all when there's TKs?

EDIT: When it comes down to it, I am an internet scrub. But, we do have pulsr in the thread, I can't imagine him using 4B more than once in a blue moon against really crazy good players like Veteru, for example. It seems like once you get to a certain level of opponents 4B is really not that viable of an option. TK's usually much safer and confusing, although it can totally lead to being mashed out of and countered too

And exactly where has anyone been comparing 4b to 2147 D? I for example haven't compare between the two only debating about the usefulness of said move in accordance with its property. You want to quote someone on it before posting?

I can't imagine anyone not expanding their options once in a while in order to manipulate your opponent. If you only TK crescent people will catch on and your gameplay will stagnant putting yourself in danger of being too easy to read. I agree that 2147d is a better move but lets get back on track here.

Minori isn't the god of Lambda, I was just throwing out a random name. If anything, I thought that recent Taiwan Lambda was so much better

........... lol, SBO has only proven that the international scene can't compete with the japanese scene. Maybe at this year SBO they can prove me wrong.

[Dangle]

Maybe I'm just being cocky, but I wouldn't regard minori and whatnot as idols or "the best". Just because they don't do something doesn't mean you shouldn't either. Yeah, 4B has a risk to it, but so does everything. It's all a matter of how you use it. You can watch the pros, but don't model yourself after them. If you don't like 4B, sure, don't use it. I, however, love 4B for how it can be combo'd from stuff like 2B and 5C. Mind you, I only really use 4B when I have meter to rapid it, or I have the hp to spare or something to that nature.

Remember, everyone is watching the pros. If you model yourself after them, you're at a huge disadvantage already.

Asian players also play A LOT more conservatively than americans do, asians dont get thrown off by goofy overhead setups nearly as much as we do, as well as the fact that asians play incredibly safe MOST of the time, when you look at a player like tenstars' bang compared to dora's, they play a completely different way, and it works for both of them, americans get hit A LOT more by overheads and take A LOT more risks because it works here.

[kriaser]

Asian players also play A LOT more conservatively than americans do, asians dont get thrown off by goofy overhead setups nearly as much as we do, as well as the fact that asians play incredibly safe MOST of the time, when you look at a player like tenstars' bang compared to dora's, they play a completely different way, and it works for both of them, americans get hit A LOT more by overheads and take A LOT more risks because it works here.

Asians this, asians that. If I had constant competition to keep my gameplay evolving, I would have reached my level of play about a month or two after release instead of 6 months+. Japan has a huge arcade scene, where you're playing ACTUAL people without lag, along with being able to talk to them directly and get tips faster and formulate a better game play. I learned mostly from fighting the same 10ish or so people. If I was fighting 100 people, with all of us learning and gaining knowledge, I'd be much better than I am now. It's not my fault that people fall for overheads. Damn right I'm going to abuse it if it helps me win in tournaments in my area.

In short, their set up helps them more so than being asian.