[CS1] Carl Clover Tactical Discussion/Questions/Help

[Mascarpone]

Can someone confirm or deny that Carl's moves have slightly more hit stun or something in CS? because i'm trying to do some of the CS-ish stuff in CT and i cannot seem to make some of the air combo links that i see made in CS which leads me to believe that either my timing needs to be frame-by-frame air tight (likely) or that people can escape Carl's air combos a little more easily in CT. I cannot seem to link 2D loops into 5C j.B j.214C 8]D[ even after 1 rep of 2D and it is bothering me. allot.

Actually nvm I think i figured it out. 2C in combos really ruins things doesn't it.

so just avoid 2C 8D if you want your air combos to have any kind of longevity?

[Zeero]

The proration depends on your combo and the hits in it unfortunately =(

Since it seems like a lot of you dont have this data...

Move -> Same move proration

6D -> 70%

2D -> 80%

3D -> 85%

4D -> 80%

8D -> 85%

I'm not exactly sure how it works tho, I'm guessing its like if you do 3 6Ds in 1 combo, then your 6Ds do 100%,70%,49% of its damage after all the other proration is handled.

Wouldnt make much sense for it to do 100%, 70%, 70% after all.

I'm guessing it stacks because if I do bang's 623B (30% same move proration) like 4 times, the last one does like 10 damage

[Mascarpone]

Well I'm less worried about Nirvana's moves and more Carl's. Like I said, if i ever put a 2C into an air combo it seems like they can escape far earlier than they can with any other moves, And I assume this is why 5C Volante has made it into so many new carl air juggles... The training Dummy always techs my third attempt at any kind of air combo started from 3C 2D by the third bit if there is a 2C involved. it bugs me because i also cannot seem to get reps of 2D loops in from a 2D launch because nirvana does not seem to recover fast enough, or they hit the ground before i can j.2C. or I j.2C ]2D[ j.C but the 2D does not come out because she is just ending her recovery..

So i suppose what i really need is ways to launch into j.2C j.C 2D that won't kill my combo's tech time and let me keep them going. 2C 8D just isn't cutting it.

Granted i am in CT still (no arcades = win) and that might account for it too. Which brings me back to the original question: is there a difference in the hit stun of Carl's normals/specials between CS and CT?

[Isuyaru]

Hitstun is reduced faster during combos in CT than in CS, which is why CS has longer combos in general for each character.

The 5C volante is used because of same move proration as already stated, it is most likely completely unrelated to hitstun scaling.

One 2D loop you can do in CT (on certain characters):

2B > 3C 22D > IAD j.2C > 5C > j.B > 8D > land, jump j.2C (release 2D) > j.C > (2D hits) > land, dash, wait > j.2C (release 2D) > j.B > (2D hits) > land, dash, wait > j.2C > j.214C > 8D (not sure when the best time to release D is for this one)

[Mascarpone]

okay that solves allot of my frustrations thank you for the answer lol. Because i've been scratching my head like "okay i'm not the best but i'm pretty sure i don't suck THIS much" lol. I'll just have to keep my air combos short and sweet till CS comes out. And practice the long flashier stuff when i have opportunity.

side note: that probably is one of my favorite things about Carl: even his BnB's are flashy.

side note 2: has anyone experimented with ground combos -> blah blah blah 623]D[ j.B j.214C 8D -> Air stuff? on the note of more hit stun, I've noticed that it's ALMOST doable in CT and i wonder if it's worth playing with in CS, tho idk if the damage proration will make it good enough by the end of the whole string to be worth doing for anything more than flash points.

[soujiro seta]

Yeah nirvana's moves seem to recover faster in CS. You have to start the 2D loop in CT at a high height, slightly above nirvana's head, if you want to do 3 consecutive reps. Although 3 reps doesn't seem possible cause your opponent would tech before the third in CT. Whereas in CS even if you start the 2D slightly below her head you can still get 3 reps.

Her moves also seem to come out faster as well.

Is it just me or does she have faster recovery and startup on all her stuff?

The whole same move proration thing is interesting. I too thought that the volante combo was just for show, as in they could have done a more damaging combo without volante. So I'm guessing volante actually makes the combo more damaging in the end? Although by how much is the question, assuming it does increase the damage? I definitely can't wait to get CS and try all this stuff out.

[Adelheid]

Yeah nirvana's moves seem to recover faster in CS. You have to start the 2D loop in CT at a high height, slightly above nirvana's head, if you want to do 3 consecutive reps. Although 3 reps doesn't seem possible cause your opponent would tech before the third in CT. Whereas in CS even if you start the 2D slightly below her head you can still get 3 reps.

Her moves also seem to come out faster as well.

Is it just me or does she have faster recovery and startup on all her stuff?

The whole same move proration thing is interesting. I too thought that the volante combo was just for show, as in they could have done a more damaging combo without volante. So I'm guessing volante actually makes the combo more damaging in the end? Although by how much is the question, assuming it does increase the damage? I definitely can't wait to get CS and try all this stuff out.

I'm actually still not convinced it's not more damage to just do a 2D rep there, since I believe the proration's better that way, which should improve the damage on everything that comes after.

As for the question of changes to Ada...

(Add 16 frames to startup if Ada is inactive)

Move: Startup / Active / Recovery

CT

6D: 32 / 9 / 69

4D: 38 / 3(15)6 / 68

3D: 32 / 4*4 / 80

2D: 57 / 6 / 61

8D: 33 / 4,28 / 12

623D: 19 / 3,6 / 39

63214D: 32~123 / 4 / 60

41236D: 52 / 26 / 96

CS

6D: 31 / 9 / 59

4D: 38 / 3(15)6 / 68

3D: 42 / 4*4 / 66

2D: 57 / 6 / 60

8D: 33 / 32 / Entire duration 71

623D: 19 / 3,6 / 39

63214D: 32~123 / 4 / 60

41236D: 52 / 26 / 96

421D: 31 / - / Entire duration 90

[Mascarpone]

so 2D is itself is still very much the same, but what about the bounce? someone should run a hight check on it :O

Still curious about the hit stun and the 623D jB j214C tho.

[soujiro seta]

Thanks for the numbers Stark. Interesting. I guess it's just me then.

Anyway, Zeero is right. The volante combo actually is more damaging, and not just for show.

That's also why you're starting to see combos with 4d as well.

like this @ 4:38 and this

The volante combo to me didn't seem to make any sense at all, but the 4d combos popping up lately really had me thinking. Why waste your time using 4d, can't you do something more damaging? But if you take into consideration what zeero said about how the more different nirvana moves you do the better, it makes sense why 4d and volante are used more often in combos.

So theoretically a combo starting from 2D (104% proration) and incorporating 4D and volante should be his most damaging meterless combo, theoretically. Don't quote me on this though.

[Mascarpone]

I'm pretty sure that as a combo starter 2D is 90% proration. it's 102% when used mid combo.

pretty sure starting a combo from 3C is optimal because it's 100%?

someone who knows for sure will have to confirm or correct me.

[ZONG_one]

2D would actually be better.

You get a combination of the starter and general proration, even if it's the starter.

So 3C is 100% starter, 85% general.

2D is 90% starter, 102% general. Seems better, IMO.

I tend to get sick damage from 2D. I think that's the starter that usually gets me ~6k, IF I have the meter.

[Kyle]

Most damaging starter is the 2nd hit of 8]D[.

Check the 3rd post:

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7900

[ZONG_one]

Kyle, that's impractical.

[Adelheid]

Kyle, the general proration for it is 78%. As Zong said, for the first hit, you still apply general proration, you just also apply starting proration. So a combo off of that part of the clap isn't going to be doing as much damage as a combo off 3C or 2D.

[Kyle]

Carl can jump loop against Nirvana.

Did I mention the hitbox of Cantible is HUGE.

[Mascarpone]

Though not optimal, Starting a combo off 8]D[ Wave isn't that hard if ur opponent decides to try and jump out of pressure, though honestly i think most good players have learned not to try because 8]d[ -> huge bullshit.

Though i suppose since 8D eats nirvana life bar like mad now it's not that great to use in a pressure string anymore either.

Kyle: Does it still whiff really close? :D

(on that note, doe carl's 2A still whiff lambda's feet in CS if ur close?)

[ZONG_one]

Cantible whiffs close.

2A Lambda doesn't whiff close.

[Kyle]

Anyone who keeps up with Carl should PM me your e-mails.

I haven't watched vids in a few weeks. =(

[Zoogstin]

I watch vids like crazy but don't have the game? what exactly are you looking for?

[Kyle]

I've been involved in VAMPIRE a lot recently mostly b/c I can actually play that game unlike CS which has been dangled at us for a LOOOONG time. I'm getting very impatient for the next build and a console release, I mean..wtf we don't even have a spot @ EVO b//c of the terrible time-line. We don't care about "story" mode and all that garbage, why should we have to wait ~8 months so they can produce it... BB:CS *sigh*

I know it's b/c story mode sells with fanboy support. I'm just bitchin' really -_-

[ZONG_one]

Funny thing is, people are bringing BBCSJP to evo.

So we probably could've run it as a main tourney, after all.

[Zeero]

oh well.

So i finally started playing Carl again recently on CS... since i probably played him like 3 times to try out whats new and went on to play other characters

not a good experience

[ZONG_one]

I may be able to help if you need anything, Kyle.

I play every day, since I have access to the game at AI, Mike's, and

anywhere with an outlet/ my car.

[Mascarpone]

If it makes you feel any better Kyle, according to the news and interviews etc the console release will feature some tweaks, as well as future balancing patches. and apparently almost all of the characters get new astral heats if that makes any difference lol. Mostly i think future re balancing is a worth while investment. I hate Rachel but she doesn't deserve to be bottom tier lol.

[njmamm]

Wait...correct me if I'm wrong. The console release will have differences with the current arcade version? o.O

oh and yay on being the 1001st post on the 101st page lol