[CS1] Carl Clover Tactical Discussion/Questions/Help

[Zeero]

rewatching the vids and (re)posting my thoughts with vid references

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Yd_7aYjGeQ - not a great vid but some stuff can be seen. Carl starts at 5:40

1. 5:54 - random jump Allegretto - Seems like recovery got better after he lands. Anyone else feel the same?

2. 7:03 - 8D + airthrow break - I saw 8D starting, airthrow break happened, 8D stopped.

3. 7:20 - 2a 5a 5b 6b 6d 3c 2b 2c 8d - Cant see really well since some random guy walked by, but if you count the combo count, that combo I posted was 9 hits. Hazama looked like he TECHED after the 8D at 7:26.

4. 8:16 - 5C CH - crumble stuns now, so maybe 5C 236A follow up confirm combo

5. 8:25 - jB CH - wall bounce, possibly 5C follow up combo but im not sure.

6. 9:30 - Volante - seems like it does no hitstun or something, pretty instant recovery lol.

7. 9:55 - 2D - Doesn't bounce anymore? I cant see well but im guessing its 2D hitting since it took off a chunk of life. May explain the new combo at 9:34.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k5DJAoeViY

1. 0:26 - 2A 5A 5B 6B 6D j2C 5B 6B 6D - 1672 pitiful damage

2. 0:59 - 5B 5C 6D dash followup - Failed

3. 1:44 - Volante - Cancelled Lambda's swords

4. 2:56 - 623D - Was that CH? If it was thats sad hitstun. If it isn't, did hitstun get reduced? feels so.

5. 3:05 - 5A 5B 5C 623C 5B (whiffed) - Isn't this pretty stable in CT for corner?

6. 3:30 - 2A 2B 3C 2A 5B jB (whiffed) - Did the jB always whiff? I dont remember. Hope its player mistake.

7. 5:17 - 5C 6D 236A 2A - Jin uppercutted the 2A. Perhaps reduced 6D hitstun or increased 236A recovery (or both). Feels like the first one though looking at animation.

overall noticed:

1. Dash is sooo slow

2. I haven't seen nirvana drill for 3 vids. Was this replaced with Volante? I think i'd see it at least once in 3 vids

3. 8D feels really slow - Takes a good chunk of meter so 20% sounds right

4. Volante also takes a good chunk of meter, maybe 10-15%

5. Airthrow bounce/fall seems like its shorter(faster)? Or is it just me?

JP Carl forums have spoken up, they're gonna go play Tsubaki instead or something liek that.

[ZONG_one]

Wow. I can't sit here and think they would let Carl come to this. I'm still hoping something will be done.

[ZONG_one]

3:00 Drill Arm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k5DJAoeViY

EDIT- A LOT of player error, it looks like to me. And sorry for double post, I got excited about finding drill arm.

[Mikachiru]

rewatching the vids and (re)posting my thoughts with vid references

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Yd_7aYjGeQ - not a great vid but some stuff can be seen. Carl starts at 5:40

1. 5:54 - random jump Allegretto - Seems like recovery got better after he lands. Anyone else feel the same?

2. 7:03 - 8D + airthrow break - I saw 8D starting, airthrow break happened, 8D stopped.

3. 7:20 - 2a 5a 5b 6b 6d 3c 2b 2c 8d - Cant see really well since some random guy walked by, but if you count the combo count, that combo I posted was 9 hits. Hazama looked like he TECHED after the 8D at 7:26.

4. 8:16 - 5C CH - crumble stuns now, so maybe 5C 236A follow up confirm combo

5. 8:25 - jB CH - wall bounce, possibly 5C follow up combo but im not sure.

6. 9:30 - Volante - seems like it does no hitstun or something, pretty instant recovery lol.

7. 9:55 - 2D - Doesn't bounce anymore? I cant see well but im guessing its 2D hitting since it took off a chunk of life. May explain the new combo at 9:34.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k5DJAoeViY

1. 0:26 - 2A 5A 5B 6B 6D j2C 5B 6B 6D - 1672 pitiful damage

2. 0:59 - 5B 5C 6D dash followup - Failed

3. 1:44 - Volante - Cancelled Lambda's swords

4. 2:56 - 623D - Was that CH? If it was thats sad hitstun. If it isn't, did hitstun get reduced? feels so.

5. 3:05 - 5A 5B 5C 623C 5B (whiffed) - Isn't this pretty stable in CT for corner?

6. 3:30 - 2A 2B 3C 2A 5B jB (whiffed) - Did the jB always whiff? I dont remember. Hope its player mistake.

7. 5:17 - 5C 6D 236A 2A - Jin uppercutted the 2A. Perhaps reduced 6D hitstun or increased 236A recovery (or both). Feels like the first one though looking at animation.

overall noticed:

1. Dash is sooo slow

2. I haven't seen nirvana drill for 3 vids. Was this replaced with Volante? I think i'd see it at least once in 3 vids

3. 8D feels really slow - Takes a good chunk of meter so 20% sounds right

4. Volante also takes a good chunk of meter, maybe 10-15%

5. Airthrow bounce/fall seems like its shorter(faster)? Or is it just me?

JP Carl forums have spoken up, they're gonna go play Tsubaki instead or something liek that.

Are you serious? Why Tsubaki? Her hat is creepy...:8/:

I hope things are fixed to make Carl better...

[Zoogstin]

rewatching the vids and (re)posting my thoughts with vid references

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Yd_7aYjGeQ - not a great vid but some stuff can be seen. Carl starts at 5:40

1. 5:54 - random jump Allegretto - Seems like recovery got better after he lands. Anyone else feel the same?

2. 7:03 - 8D + airthrow break - I saw 8D starting, airthrow break happened, 8D stopped.

3. 7:20 - 2a 5a 5b 6b 6d 3c 2b 2c 8d - Cant see really well since some random guy walked by, but if you count the combo count, that combo I posted was 9 hits. Hazama looked like he TECHED after the 8D at 7:26.

4. 8:16 - 5C CH - crumble stuns now, so maybe 5C 236A follow up confirm combo

5. 8:25 - jB CH - wall bounce, possibly 5C follow up combo but im not sure.

6. 9:30 - Volante - seems like it does no hitstun or something, pretty instant recovery lol.

7. 9:55 - 2D - Doesn't bounce anymore? I cant see well but im guessing its 2D hitting since it took off a chunk of life. May explain the new combo at 9:34.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k5DJAoeViY

1. 0:26 - 2A 5A 5B 6B 6D j2C 5B 6B 6D - 1672 pitiful damage

2. 0:59 - 5B 5C 6D dash followup - Failed

3. 1:44 - Volante - Cancelled Lambda's swords

4. 2:56 - 623D - Was that CH? If it was thats sad hitstun. If it isn't, did hitstun get reduced? feels so.

5. 3:05 - 5A 5B 5C 623C 5B (whiffed) - Isn't this pretty stable in CT for corner?

6. 3:30 - 2A 2B 3C 2A 5B jB (whiffed) - Did the jB always whiff? I dont remember. Hope its player mistake.

7. 5:17 - 5C 6D 236A 2A - Jin uppercutted the 2A. Perhaps reduced 6D hitstun or increased 236A recovery (or both). Feels like the first one though looking at animation.

overall noticed:

1. Dash is sooo slow

2. I haven't seen nirvana drill for 3 vids. Was this replaced with Volante? I think i'd see it at least once in 3 vids

3. 8D feels really slow - Takes a good chunk of meter so 20% sounds right

4. Volante also takes a good chunk of meter, maybe 10-15%

5. Airthrow bounce/fall seems like its shorter(faster)? Or is it just me?

JP Carl forums have spoken up, they're gonna go play Tsubaki instead or something liek that.

I was looking at the part where Jin uppercutted Carl's 2A. The carl player used 236A VERY late. Had he done it soon after the 5C if would have worked out. So thats a relief.

Edit: I also just looked at the part where you thought Hazama teched Nirvana's 8D (then the person's head got in the way). I think Hazama bursted.

Edit2: About you questioning whether 2D ground bounces or not. 2D never hit Hazama. If you look closely you can see him block the 2D. He was standing the entire time. What hit him was Carl's 2B. You can see the yellow "!" infront of him.

[Akiro]

Incase anyone wanted to know, Volante means "Flying" when dealing with music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k5DJAoeViY

1. 0:26 - 2A 5A 5B 6B 6D j2C 5B 6B 6D - 1672 pitiful damage

2. 0:59 - 5B 5C 6D dash followup - Failed

3. 1:44 - Volante - Cancelled Lambda's swords

4. 2:56 - 623D - Was that CH? If it was thats sad hitstun. If it isn't, did hitstun get reduced? feels so.

5. 3:05 - 5A 5B 5C 623C 5B (whiffed) - Isn't this pretty stable in CT for corner?

6. 3:30 - 2A 2B 3C 2A 5B jB (whiffed) - Did the jB always whiff? I dont remember. Hope its player mistake.

7. 5:17 - 5C 6D 236A 2A - Jin uppercutted the 2A. Perhaps reduced 6D hitstun or increased 236A recovery (or both). Feels like the first one though looking at animation.

Edit:In the second vid @ 0:40 it seems like summoning does not consume any of Nirvana's meter. Maybe my eyes are bad.

[Kyle]

Good eye Zoogs. =) Not so much to Akiro tho. =P Summon does cost.

[Zeero]

I love it when my observations are corrected coz that means Carl doesn't suck as much as I thought

[soujiro seta]

I mean overcompensating in terms of nerfs.

As for the projectile, it's good to have, but it seems to (along with the other changes) reduce emphasis on actually fighting while actively using nirvana, which is what they should have been trying to increase. I don't look forward to having people park her in the corner and just use the projectiles for links.

Aren't any Japanese Carl players speaking up about this?

I know what you mean. I don't mind if they decreased our usage of nirvana, but they went a bit overboard with it. I mean her most useful move in blockstrings and keeping your opponent from jumping, 6D/8D, can only be done a total of 5 times before she breaks?? Don't they realize that not every move is going to hit your opponent, or that nirvana is going to be used in blockstrings and if she dies in 5 moves and assuming j2c is not an overhead then how do you break someone that blocks low? Even if j.2c is an overhead and assuming you get your opponent in a block string when she is at 100% health then you can only do 6D 5 times and if your opponents blocks j2c/2a repetedly then carl's sandwich pressure game goes out the window. In CT not only could you mix up j2c/2a during blockstrings, but you could do it for a while, so even if they guessed right everytime eventually you'll guard break, but now in CS that's not going to happen. Did Arcsys think that was too much? Also in the vid "carl vs jin", 8D only takes away 95 health, sigh. 8D takes 20% meter and only 95 health. I know this was done because of clap loop/relaunch during throw loop, but c'mon 95 health for 20% meter, lol, that doesn't add up.

The carls in japan need to give their suggestions. It's sad that no one who played carl gave arcsys suggestions after the loc test 1 and 2, cause if loc 3 is any indication of what arcsys thinks is right for carl, then he might be unplayable at high level play.

I mean did they really think nerfing him after taking away throw loop was the right thing to do? IMO, The projectile is not enough. Carl should be more than just a "camp nirvana in the corner and spam projectile" character. His projectile is going to be so overused and everyone will expect it when nirvana isn't close by.

[Zeero]

As an added point to post above. I'm not sure how many of you are aware of this, but if you looked at Carl's attack data, he probably has one of the best guard breaking ability in the game due to nirvana and his naturally high guard break stats. But now that they also changed the guard break system...

[Sigma]

As an added point to post above.

I'm not sure how many of you are aware of this, but if you looked at Carl's attack data, he probably has one of the best guard breaking ability in the game due to nirvana and his naturally high guard break stats.

But now that they also changed the guard break system...

Indeed. I had a nice full guard crush (from neutral) block string going, now it's all ruined thanks to a few of the changes.

Carl's combo damage is going to be way underpowered as it is. Like Dan underpowered.

Why does Carl need to blow up Nirvana just to match other characters' bnb combos?

[Kyle]

I'm looking forward to a CS Carl who'll be a little tougher to use.

We still have unblocks, Resets, Mix-ups, Kara-cancels, & situational throw loops.

I am curios to see just how much life is taken during the corner whiff loops. =)

[mynus]

I'm looking forward to a CS Carl who'll be a little tougher to use.

We still have unblocks, Resets, Mix-ups, Kara-cancels, & situational throw loops.

I am curios to see just how much life is taken during the corner whiff loops. =)

Kyle, how can u corner whiff loop if Nirvana stops when the opp throw breaks? Carl is looking pretty ass right now. I dont really want to be playing a frustrating char that i have to sweat out every round for.

Does anyone know where we can give arcsys feedback? Im gonna ask Kyohei to write something for us.

[Kyle]

Kyle, How can u corner whiff loop if Nirvana stops when the opp throw breaks? ...

WTF: o.0

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Zoogstin]

We've opened Kyles eyes now. Carl is looking pretty bunz right now. But there's still hope. I'm hoping that his projectile stays the way it is but I want some more buffs darnit. >.<

[Kyle]

I wonder if H"Ada"douken disappears when opponent breaks a throw. Fireball spam, becomes useless is opponent just has to throw Carl, regardless if it's "successful". oh no, I'm getting glimps's of SFIV Claw.

[Zoogstin]

I doubt it. But the invincibility frames of the throw may make up for that. I was thinking the same thing though Kyle. The best defense against the projectile is to try to throw Carl a lot.

[Kyle]

Well, We could set-up the airthrow/fireball and force an air guard, into epic SJ, AD, (J.A)xN, 8]D[ shenanigans. Or maybe even for lols, JB+C, Fireball, (SJ, Glide toss, Fireball)x~8 we'd be trading Nirvana life for opponents barrier... oh shit. they changed the guard crush system.. this could be failure. It has to be 8]D[ that breaks their guard.

[mynus]

Oh nyooooh. Has arcsys screwed themselves by creating a char who by design is too good so its almost impossible to balance him between cheap and ass? Looks like it.

[Zeero]

lol 8D is so slow and carl's dash is so slow i dont even think jAxN shenanigans will do any good. At most they take the 300 dmg that 8D does or something lol.

[Sigma]

It looks like the only choice outside of Arc changing something is for us to find something retarded to break the game with once again, since Carl isn't going to be a valid character to play normally as he is right now. :P I think now is a good time to form a contingency plan in case Carl remains the same. I'll be moving down the hat-awesomeness tier list, so it looks like Hazama is up.

[Zoogstin]

Shame on you Sigma for settling for a less cool hat. Although I don't blame you. Arc why have you forsaken Carl!!! But there is still hope.

[ZONG_one]

There is still hope... And if that fails.. there is still Tsubaki. I'll give the new Carl a go. BTW anyone notice his new picture for CS? IMO, it's a huge tribute to Pedo-Bears everywhere.

[Prophet]

There is still hope...

And if that fails.. there is still Tsubaki.

I'll give the new Carl a go. BTW anyone notice his new picture for CS?

IMO, it's a huge tribute to Pedo-Bears everywhere.

Is it just me, or did his zipper get WAAAY bigger?

[Sigma]

Is it just me, or did his zipper get WAAAY bigger?

It's the reason his dash is slower.