Central Fiction Story Discussion

[1337 H@x0r]

Well...

8 hours ago, relic.nt said:

I added more detail to my summary regarding the last fight with Hazama. Since I think it could lead to a lot of theories, I thought it would be better to be more detailed. I'm not sure what it says about Kazuma being Hazama, but I think it really does suggest that this Hazama will take a large role in BE:

  Hide contents

Naoto stops Ragna from killing Hazama. He says Ragna shouldn't attack to destroy, he should fight just to save. Naoto says it seems like Ragna is a possibility of himself. He says he'll save Ragna. They fight. Ragna wakes up. Naoto tells Hazama he should be happy Naoto saved him. Hazama says, 'Saved me? You, saved me? ...Heh heh heh, hahahaha! I see, this truly is... Interesting... Heh. It seems... There's still a "future" left.' Jin finally breaks into the area, Trinity says "Kazuma... No, Hazama..." Hazama says he would rather die than be "saved" by Ragna. Trinity says "Hazama-san..." and Hazama says, "I really hate those kind and compassionate eyes of yours... Anyway, Ragna. I look forward to the fun possibilities." He jumps into the Cauldron. Trinity (IMO sadly) says, "Kazuma-san...", but Naoto says Hazama is still alive. Then he nervously laughs and backtracks, telling everyone it's just his intuition. Naoto says the Azure he's looking for isn't in this world and it feels like his role is over. He says his actions were for the sake of his... no... "our" world. Naoto asks Ragna to stop the suffering of the Murakumo units. Rachel (combined with Raquels voice) thanks Naoto right before he disappears.

Also, Ragna's earlier conversation with Hazama:

  Hide contents

Ragna wakes up with Hazama in a place that looks like the top of the Kagutsuchi cathedral. Hazama says this place is a "forsaken event", a space between dimensions with no possibilities. Ragna contemplates this is what humanity caused by using the Master Unit and what the end of the world looks like. Hazama says he doesn't know why he's still alive. After Trinity pulled Terumi out, she should have stabbed and killed Hazama. Instead, she let him live, maybe because he looks like her old friend. But now he can act independently. Ragna asks what Hazama's dream is. Hazama says Terumi feeds off pain and sorrow, but Hazama can't feel pain, either the pain of his own or of others. Hazama shows Ragna a gaping hole on his chest. He says the wound Trinity gave him when she stabbed him throbs and he can feel it. That pain makes him feel self-aware and independent. Hazama says, "My dream is to know." He wants to know the pain and suffering of others. Hazama says he needs to get some things to do this and he'll need Ragna's help. Hazama brings out Mu and says he found her, but she's annoyingly incomplete. She's his heart, like Nu is Ragna's heart. Hazama, as an Azure Grimoire himself, wants to become the "Black Beast"... no... the "Azure Flame Grimoire." In order for Hazama to do this, Ragna will need to teach him more pain and suffering. Ragna and Mu briefly fight, but Ragna successfully gets her to wake up. Ragna is confused why she and Noel both exist. Mu says she was detached from the Noel Ragna has been interacting with. They try to use the cocoon to return to their world. (The cocoon has the same functions as the cauldron used to smelt Mu.) Only Ragna makes it. Mu's voice says she might be able to come back if Noel is brought near a Cauldron.

 

So Hazama without Terumi is basically like a reverse Nu, he has a messed up head because of what he was created for and because of those who used him thus he wants to become one with his other half, only that he is a body without a heart to feel instead of a heart who wants a body to release it's pent up emotions.

 

On that subject, didn't Mu and Izanami fused with Noel to recreate Saya then ejected the parts which didn't contain Saya as the "new" Noel we see in the ending?

 

Is nun Noel the 12th Prime Field Device which Hazama is after or did Mu become part of the Saya we see with Ragna staying inside the Master Unit? Where the hell have all the Lux Sanctus Murakumo noxes have gone to anyway?

[MaximusMurkimus]

From what I understand, the order of Sayas go like this:

Saya Terumi (5th PFD modeled after her, Relius uses her as a basis for Sayanami to ensure higher compatability for her magic levels)

5th PFD (Ragna/Jin/Saya's "parent")

Sayaterasu/The Origin (girl inside the Master Unit, the one that Ragna mentions in the end)

Sayanami (Ragna/Jin's sister, Izanami's vessel, contains half of Saya's memories)

Noel/Mu-12 (Contains other half of Saya's memories)

Nu and Lambda don't count despite being clones, Nu has become her own individual so Noel can't absorb her, whereas Lambda is a blank slate who is busy being seithr goo late in the story. Oh Lambda. The ending was the best thing that happened to you.

In the end, Noel fuses with Sayanami and Mu-12 and part of The Origin to reform Ragna/Jin's sister. Think she just goes by Noel because that's what her friends know her as. Not quite sure how there is still part of The Origin Saya left for Ragna to talk to, though, hope someone will clarify anything I got wrong there.

[1337 H@x0r]

Well...

8 minutes ago, MaximusMurkimus said:

From what I understand, the order of Sayas go like this:

Saya Terumi (5th PFD modeled after her, Relius uses her as a basis for Sayanami  to ensure higher compatability for her magic levels)

5th PFD (Ragna/Jin/Saya's "parent")

Sayaterasu/The Origin (girl inside the Master Unit, the one that Ragna mentions in the end)

Sayanami (Ragna/Jin's sister, Izanami's vessel, contains half of 

Noel/Mu-12 (Contains other half of Saya's memories)

Nu and Lambda don't count despite being clones, Nu has become her own individual so Noel can't absorb her, whereas Lambda is a blank slate who is busy being seithr goo late in the story. Oh Lambda. The ending was the best thing that happened to you.

In the end, Noel fuses with Sayanami and Mu-12 and part of The Origin to reform Ragna/Jin's sister. Think she just goes by Noel because that's what her friends know her as. Not quite sure how there is still part of The Origin Saya left for Ragna to talk to, though, hope someone will clarify anything I got wrong there.

So Mu is not stuck inside Amaterasu, at least that leaves Hazama's target of HUG.EXE available for future games.

 

EDIT:

Speaking of HUG.EXE, Nu looked pretty miserable now that Ragna choose to become one with Amaterasu instead of her, I heard she took a heavy beating from Hakumen that left her in that state though.

Maybe if Alpha-01 shows up Nu can recover and get over Ragna by joining the other team!

[sg1989]

26 minutes ago, 1337 H@x0r said:

Well...

So Mu is not stuck inside Amaterasu, at least that leaves Hazama's target of HUG.EXE available for future games.

 

EDIT:

Speaking of HUG.EXE, Nu looked pretty miserable now that Ragna choose to become one with Amaterasu instead of her, I heard she took a heavy beating from Hakumen that left her in that state though.

Maybe if Alpha-01 shows up Nu can recover and get over Ragna by joining the other team!

Spoiler

after the end of CF i think it is unlikely a return of ragna or its merger with nu.

I do not even understand the reason of the missing sword in the tomb of celica.
(Ragna has erased the existence of His sword?)

But, Nevertheless, after the return of lambda anything can happen

 

[Toxin45]

You forgot that his sword went missing after the credits and also zedar said he was mia 

[MaximusMurkimus]

Here's one thing that I need to know; does Rachel really not remember Ragna anymore too? According to translations she said she doesn't know whose grave this is (probably lying to Tsubakumen) and then says something about finding who it belongs to.

Kinda crushing that no one else will remember him; I think everyone would be better for knowing about his sacrifice.

[relic.nt]

21 minutes ago, MaximusMurkimus said:

Here's one thing that I need to know; does Rachel really not remember Ragna anymore too? According to translations she said she doesn't know whose grave this is (probably lying to Tsubakumen) and then says something about finding who it belongs to.

Kinda crushing that no one else will remember him; I think everyone would be better for knowing about his sacrifice.

It's part of the ending cutscene, maybe you can find the subbed version somewhere. But... Hakumen's sword appears behind Rachel and Rachel says she was waiting. Tsubaki says she came to fulfill a promise. Tsubaki asks Rachel whose sword that is. (Rachel tears up.) Rachel says she doesn't know, but the will to 'never give up' remains. It's proof of possibility. Tsubaki says something like Rachel will fall into the Hell of possibility too, Rachel says even if it's Hell, she'll choose it. As long as hope remains, she'll choose it. Then she says, "I shall find you, I promise."

[kylehyde]

32 minutes ago, MaximusMurkimus said:

Here's one thing that I need to know; does Rachel really not remember Ragna anymore too? According to translations she said she doesn't know whose grave this is (probably lying to Tsubakumen) and then says something about finding who it belongs to.

Kinda crushing that no one else will remember him; I think everyone would be better for knowing about his sacrifice.

Well the best part about that is the ending is left with an indication that Rachel has not given up on finding Ragna. She may not remember him but she definitely knows of his existence. Which is odd because I thought everyone was supposed to forget him completely, but Rachel still knows/feels him.

And yes to me the fact that no one remembers him is the absolute worst part about the ending. Personally for me, it kind of makes me feel like what was the point of the games? If Ragna was just gonna disappear at the end and no one was going to give a shit about him sacrificing his being so that everyone could get their happy endings then fuck. Yes I know Jin and Noel hugged and cried for him but they still forgot him at the end. Poor guy, at least we know the truth Rags, we know the truth 

[MaximusMurkimus]

That could be reassuring to know that he still exists in some form. If Es could be brought back from the Boundary, maybe the same could be done for Ragna?

[Toxin45]

Well it was never said that he became one with the master unit as Zedar said it depends on your interpretation he is just unknown.

[Sashide]

27 minutes ago, relic.nt said:

It's part of the ending cutscene, maybe you can find the subbed version somewhere. But... Hakumen's sword appears behind Rachel and Rachel says she was waiting. Tsubaki says she came to fulfill a promise. Tsubaki asks Rachel whose sword that is. (Rachel tears up.) Rachel says she doesn't know, but the will to 'never give up' remains. It's proof of possibility. Tsubaki says something like Rachel will fall into the Hell of possibility too, Rachel says even if it's Hell, she'll choose it. As long as hope remains, she'll choose it. Then she says, "I shall find you, I promise."

Yup, this! I highly doubt she's lying about not remembering because of her tone + her tears. Also good to know that my translation was basically accurate.

I feel like Ragna might surface again, but that he will no longer be the focal point of the story.

[MaximusMurkimus]

That could be reassuring to know that he still exists in some form. If Es could be brought back from the Boundary, maybe the same could be done for Ragna?

[1337 H@x0r]

Well...

1 hour ago, kylehyde said:

Well the best part about that is the ending is left with an indication that Rachel has not given up on finding Ragna. She may not remember him but she definitely knows of his existence. Which is odd because I thought everyone was supposed to forget him completely, but Rachel still knows/feels him.

And yes to me the fact that no one remembers him is the absolute worst part about the ending. Personally for me, it kind of makes me feel like what was the point of the games? If Ragna was just gonna disappear at the end and no one was going to give a shit about him sacrificing his being so that everyone could get their happy endings then fuck. Yes I know Jin and Noel hugged and cried for him but they still forgot him at the end. Poor guy, at least we know the truth Rags, we know the truth 

The story comes full circle:

-Ragna was Bloodedge, the unsung hero who stopped the Black Beast for an entire year only to be forgotten by all but the Six Heroes.

-Ragna was the Black Beast itself, whose origins were unknown to all but the ones who could observes through the loops of time.

-Ragna was the Grim Reaper, an enemy who the world feared but whose true motives and emotions were unknown to all but a select few.

-Ragna then became the heart of Amaterasu and saved the world, only to be forgotten by all but the current Observer and the Guardian of the Azure.

Ragna's entire story has been him shaping History without ever being acknowleged for it so the logical conclusion to that path of obscurity was him ceasing to exist but bringing about the greatest possible benefit in return.

[Argent Zero]

Finally finished the story mode for BBCF.

I feel that was a fitting end to Ragna's story, I'm satisfied. Of course there are still some things left unanswered but for now...

Still would like to know (Spoilers contained so please read at your own risk)

 

 

 

 

1) Arakune dissolved and Roy's ties to reality severed completely (meaning he's killed off if they do make some sort of sequel to the series)?

2) Relius jumped back into the cauldron since he was "done"?

3) Tsubaki's the new Hakumen (hinted by the long hair and his sword)? Wonder much time passed since she donned the armor. Assuming a long time from her dialogue.

4) Did Hazama really die? Seems that Naoto thinks otherwise (my apologies if Hazama appeared in Bloodedge Experience)

5) Carl = new Relius + a little bit of Arakune since he peered into the cauldron?

[1337 H@x0r]

Well...

7 hours ago, Argent Zero said:

3) Tsubaki's the new Hakumen (hinted by the long hair and his sword)? Wonder much time passed since she donned the armor. Assuming a long time from her dialogue.

Naoto did say that the Hakumen of his universe was a woman called justice, it wouldn't be far fetched to consider his Hakumen a time displaced Tsubaki.

[VermilionBird]

Reminder that ALPHA STILL ISN'T CANON

 

[MaximusMurkimus]

1 hour ago, 1337 H@x0r said:

Well...

Naoto did say that the Hakumen of his universe was a woman called justice, it wouldn't be far fetched to consider his Hakumen a time displaced Tsubaki.

Plus, if Trinity took the Susanno armor at the end of the story, there wouldn't be anyone to claim it in the current world.

[Argent Zero]

2 hours ago, 1337 H@x0r said:

Well...

Naoto did say that the Hakumen of his universe was a woman called justice, it wouldn't be far fetched to consider his Hakumen a time displaced Tsubaki.

Thanks for the information.

*SPOILER ALERT*

Ah the more I look back at the story, we can agree that the true winner is Relius (and perhaps Carl?)

[relic.nt]

35 minutes ago, Argent Zero said:

Thanks for the information.

*SPOILER ALERT*

Ah the more I look back at the story, we can agree that the true winner is Relius (and perhaps Carl?)

I guess... but neither of those characters got anything they wanted. In that case, you could see Roy (and probably Hazama) won too. I actually thought the story concluded well and was a pretty happy ending overall. The cast shown in the ending cutscene all seemed pretty happy.

[relic.nt]

10 hours ago, Argent Zero said:

1) Arakune dissolved and Roy's ties to reality severed completely (meaning he's killed off if they do make some sort of sequel to the series)?

2) Relius jumped back into the cauldron since he was "done"?

3) Tsubaki's the new Hakumen (hinted by the long hair and his sword)? Wonder much time passed since she donned the armor. Assuming a long time from her dialogue.

4) Did Hazama really die? Seems that Naoto thinks otherwise (my apologies if Hazama appeared in Bloodedge Experience)

5) Carl = new Relius + a little bit of Arakune since he peered into the cauldron?

1) Arakune's fate was ambiguous. Bang was about to kill him when people started turning to Seithr and Arakune isn't mentioned after that.

2) Relius said he had to do "verification" since he was done with "observation."

3) It's fine to speculate, but it's not certain Tsubaki has the Susanoo armor. Her body was hidden by a tree, none of the armor was shown. just her Okami and her hair were shown.  The sword isn't part of Susanoo and she had no voice distortion. Maybe "Tsubaki Yayoi" was a nostalgic name because she's "Tsubaki Kisaragi" now. Maybe they just hid her because she looks really old. Likewise, the game never specifically mentions Saya Terumi, it just hints at someone matching some of her traits.

4) He almost certainly didn't die. Naoto is initially adamant Hazama survived, his backtracking sounds like a lie. Hazama shows up in the epilogue of BE2, but doesn't do anything. In arcade mode, Naoto says Hazama made his life hell, but Hazama doesn't recognize him.  Amane said Ragna created "Hope in the form of possibility, extending from all directions, in the past, present, and future... I've never seen a world reconstructed on such a large scale before... So this is the True Azure..." Even if Naoto comes from the "past", it could easily be a recreated past due to CF's events, maybe this time with a happier ending. If Saya Terumi really is the base of No. 5, the original ending seems tragic.

5) Relius said something like he gave his Eye to Carl. I don't think it was stated Carl was blind. I think it just shows that Carl can now see the structure of the world.

[Orihalcon]

This speculation about "Justice" and everything is dumb and you should all stop it unless you want to move it to the Speculation thread.

Also, what's this about Relius and Carl having won or whatever?  Relius fucked right off for the rest of the story, and Carl just kinda got all mopey and looked around ruins, with his sister still stuck in a doll (unless I missed the part where that wasn't a thing.)  I wouldn't call somebody having an ambiguous fate and another one not having gotten what he was aiming for this entire time winning.

Also the idea that Carl literally becomes Relius is dumb.

[Leiopelma]

The story and character sections of the CF website have been updated to include information on the Susanoo. These state outright that the Susanoo is Terumi's true form, so that should put to rest any speculation on Terumi simply being a crazy human who inhabited the Susanoo and came to think of himself as a god. The Susanoo was meant to defend Amaterasu along with Tsukuyomi and wasn't meant to have a consciousness of its own. However it eventually developed a soul and came to resent Amaterasu because it felt like it was enslaved.

[ImmaYuukiTerumi]

16 minutes ago, Leiopelma said:

The story and character sections of the CF website have been updated to include information on the Susanoo. These state outright that the Susanoo is Terumi's true form, so that should put to rest any speculation on Terumi simply being a crazy human who inhabited the Susanoo and came to think of himself as a god. The Susanoo was meant to defend Amaterasu along with Tsukuyomi and wasn't meant to have a consciousness of its own. However it eventually developed a soul and came to resent Amaterasu because it felt like it was enslaved.

Even Terumi has a freudian excuse.

[BlazGearRegalia]

22 minutes ago, Leiopelma said:

The story and character sections of the CF website have been updated to include information on the Susanoo. These state outright that the Susanoo is Terumi's true form, so that should put to rest any speculation on Terumi simply being a crazy human who inhabited the Susanoo and came to think of himself as a god. The Susanoo was meant to defend Amaterasu along with Tsukuyomi and wasn't meant to have a consciousness of its own. However it eventually developed a soul and came to resent Amaterasu because it felt like it was enslaved.

 

I wanna say discount Mewtwo, but how could one possibly feel enslaved by the thing that gave existence to them is beyond me, so I'm gonna just shut my mouth and go with "because where there is a being of creation, there has to be a  being of destruction to balance things" am I right? Whatever, I've [finally] given up trying to understand this game's lore...

[Leiopelma]

20 minutes ago, BlazGearRegalia said:

I wanna say discount Mewtwo, but how could one possibly feel enslaved by the thing that gave existence to them is beyond me, so I'm gonna just shut my mouth and go with "because where there is a being of creation, there has to be a  being of destruction to balance things" am I right? Whatever, I've [finally] given up trying to understand this game's lore...

The Susanoo in its profile is said to love freedom. In effect, it was trying to free itself from its duty by destroying the thing it was meant to protect. Which wasn't very good for the world of course.