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Central Fiction Story Discussion

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35 minutes ago, BlazGearRegalia said:

 

I wanna say discount Mewtwo, but how could one possibly feel enslaved by the thing that gave existence to them is beyond me, so I'm gonna just shut my mouth and go with "because where there is a being of creation, there has to be a  being of destruction to balance things" am I right? Whatever, I've [finally] given up trying to understand this game's lore...

I don't think it's said that the Master Unit created the other ones, but maybe that's true. Do you remember the source? The Original Units seem to have equal status.

Also, rebelling against creators is such a common theme. Even in real life, if you count parents. But as far as media goes, anything where humans fight AI has this theme: Matrix, Terminator, etc... Lots of JRPGs end up with the protagonists fighting some sort of god.

As far as the yin and yang between creation and destruction... it's another really common theme. It usually is explained as (1) That's the way it is, (2) You need to destroy things in order to create things.

The thing I'm really interested in is Susanoo gaining a will. BlazBlue touches on this a lot (The Origin, Izanami, Noel/Mu, Nu and Lambda gaining independent souls.) Are souls just hyper compressed Seithr or something more? Is there some deeper secret to the Drives? Clavis seemed to hate them. It seems to be a major theme.

I'm also really interested in Susanoo rebelling. I'm wondering if this is a hint to the Age of Origin war, although it's possible that war was the Prime Field War or Mori forgot about the two wars completely. I really wish some dates were given for (1) When Susanoo left his body and if it was voluntary, (2) When humanity found the Susanoo Unit, (3) When The Origin contacted the Master Unit, (4) When the Prime Field War began. It would make such a huge difference to the timelines... *crosses fingers for another Material Works timeline.* I have my own suspicions, but this isn't the speculation section.

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32 minutes ago, Zeldasmash said:

This might have been answered already, but where did Ragna and Terumi had their final showdown and how did they get there?

The Azure. Noel (or the Origin, I forget which) opened the gate to bet on Ragna beating Terumi there.

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55 minutes ago, relic.nt said:

I'm also really interested in Susanoo rebelling. I'm wondering if this is a hint to the Age of Origin war, although it's possible that war was the Prime Field War or Mori forgot about the two wars completely. I really wish some dates were given for (1) When Susanoo left his body and if it was voluntary, (2) When humanity found the Susanoo Unit, (3) When The Origin contacted the Master Unit, (4) When the Prime Field War began. It would make such a huge difference to the timelines... *crosses fingers for another Material Works timeline.* I have my own suspicions, but this isn't the speculation section.

wait, but the prime field war and the age of origin war are not the same thing?

I'm confused :vbang:

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6 minutes ago, sg1989 said:

wait, but the prime field war and the age of origin war are not the same thing?

I'm confused :vbang:

Who knows? I don't think it's clear. There's been mentions of: Age of Origin War, a smaller scale war hundreds of years ago, Prime Field War, Dark War, Ikaruga Civil War.

The first two wars come from Phase Shift 3 Chapter 1, the remainder from the games. It sounds like the Hihiirokane was from the Age of Origin War. And it sounds like Izayoi was from the smaller scale war. That's why I lean more on the side that the Prime Field War was the smaller war. That could be completely wrong though... maybe the smaller scale war was just a previous loop of the Dark War. Or both wars were completely different things. Or, like I said, maybe the two wars were retconned. But I really like the idea of a huge reality spanning war between gods and humans as the first war.

Also... it's interesting that they pointed out Takamagahara could only rewind time at the start of the Prime Field War. But in Chrono Phantasma, it seemed like Takamagahara could do additional Interventions. I don't remember XBlaze, but does anyone know if the T-System could do anything or if it was completely inactive?

I'm trying to throw in a lot of facts... but maybe this discussion should be moved to speculation.

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So, having seen the story now, turns out that the reason Ragna was never an Entitled like the rest (barring Litchi) is because he is the titular "Central Fiction", for those that were still wondering how the title of the series ties in. He's what the Master Unit, or more specifically, the Origin dreams of and desires most of all and has been repeating all of this history just to reunite with him once more, which he obliges in the end. Like many of us thought, he was the "Hero" in that story that Rachel told. It's why Terumi/Susanoo especially goes out of his way to wreck what little happiness Ragna had (because Amaterasu wants him most of all and hurting him would pain her immeasurably). It's the reason why Nine became hostile to him after learning the truth. It is also the reason why he is the sole person who has permission to pass through the gate to the Azure and enter the "realm of the gods".

Also for clarifications sake, let me see if I understand this properly. There are in fact 3 Saya out there (Origin, Noel/Mu-12 and Izanami). The Origin (Prime Field No.5) which is "Saya" and essentially the mother to Ragna, Jin and Saya. Izanami and Noel have 2 halves of Saya (the sister) and by the end of the game, the two halves were combined into Noel and thus Saya was effectively "reborn" and lives through her now. Am I missing anything? Because this whole business with so many girls sharing the same existence is kinda funky and a total mess.

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3 hours ago, Zeldasmash said:

Fighting inside the Azure? Doesn't that mean the Boundary? I might be wrong on all of this which is why i'm asking, but i thought you couldn't move in there.

Not the Boundary, but right in front of the Azure, since the Gate leads directly to it rather than anywhere in the Boundary.

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54 minutes ago, redsilversnake said:

Not the Boundary, but right in front of the Azure, since the Gate leads directly to it rather than anywhere in the Boundary.

Oh OK. It's just that i saw where the stage BLUE takes place and it said "Boundary" and i thought it took place in the Boundary.

Edit:.....but isn't the Azure located inside the Boundary?

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8 hours ago, Luminos564 said:

So, having seen the story now, turns out that the reason Ragna was never an Entitled like the rest (barring Litchi) is because he is the titular "Central Fiction", for those that were still wondering how the title of the series ties in. He's what the Master Unit, or more specifically, the Origin dreams of and desires most of all and has been repeating all of this history just to reunite with him once more, which he obliges in the end. Like many of us thought, he was the "Hero" in that story that Rachel told. It's why Terumi/Susanoo especially goes out of his way to wreck what little happiness Ragna had (because Amaterasu wants him most of all and hurting him would pain her immeasurably). It's the reason why Nine became hostile to him after learning the truth. It is also the reason why he is the sole person who has permission to pass through the gate to the Azure and enter the "realm of the gods".

Also for clarifications sake, let me see if I understand this properly. There are in fact 3 Saya out there (Origin, Noel/Mu-12 and Izanami). The Origin (Prime Field No.5) which is "Saya" and essentially the mother to Ragna, Jin and Saya. Izanami and Noel have 2 halves of Saya (the sister) and by the end of the game, the two halves were combined into Noel and thus Saya was effectively "reborn" and lives through her now. Am I missing anything? Because this whole business with so many girls sharing the same existence is kinda funky and a total mess.

I guess in a way, it does make sense for Ragna to be the Central Fiction since he wasn't chosen to be an Entitled and going with the 3 Sayas with The Origin, Noel/Mu-12 and Izanami each having a fragment of Saya's soul inside them, so when Noel fused with Mu-12, she managed to regain all of her memories which included her real name. But when she fused with Izanami, Noel was becoming Saya after regaining the half that was with Izanami but that leaves The Origin herself since Noel managed to fuse with her too and fully became Saya but she still goes by her adopted name.

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11 hours ago, Luminos564 said:

Also for clarifications sake, let me see if I understand this properly. There are in fact 3 Saya out there (Origin, Noel/Mu-12 and Izanami). The Origin (Prime Field No.5) which is "Saya" and essentially the mother to Ragna, Jin and Saya. Izanami and Noel have 2 halves of Saya (the sister) and by the end of the game, the two halves were combined into Noel and thus Saya was effectively "reborn" and lives through her now. Am I missing anything? Because this whole business with so many girls sharing the same existence is kinda funky and a total mess.

but the prime field 5 had not been destroyed by Jubei while relius was studying?
at least according to what I read on some sites

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2 hours ago, sg1989 said:

but the prime field 5 had not been destroyed by Jubei while relius was studying?
at least according to what I read on some sites

Also, Relius mentioned in the start of Episode 5, while he was talking to Izanami

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19 hours ago, BlazGearRegalia said:

 

I wanna say discount Mewtwo, but how could one possibly feel enslaved by the thing that gave existence to them is beyond me, so I'm gonna just shut my mouth and go with "because where there is a being of creation, there has to be a  being of destruction to balance things" am I right? Whatever, I've [finally] given up trying to understand this game's lore...

Clearly you don't remember what it's like being a teenager.

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I think Nu and Lambda would also have a part of the soul since otherwise they wouldn't have that affinity for Ragna. Maybe just not all of it. Actually that has to be true since they specifically go out of their way to note that Nu had been separate long enough that she became her own distinct entity; ie, they wouldn't have tried to fuse her with Noel if she didn't share part of Saya originally.

I got this from playing the English story mode of the HK version. Glad I got it.

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16 hours ago, Luminos564 said:

So, having seen the story now, turns out that the reason Ragna was never an Entitled like the rest (barring Litchi) is because he is the titular "Central Fiction", for those that were still wondering how the title of the series ties in. He's what the Master Unit, or more specifically, the Origin dreams of and desires most of all and has been repeating all of this history just to reunite with him once more, which he obliges in the end. Like many of us thought, he was the "Hero" in that story that Rachel told. It's why Terumi/Susanoo especially goes out of his way to wreck what little happiness Ragna had (because Amaterasu wants him most of all and hurting him would pain her immeasurably). It's the reason why Nine became hostile to him after learning the truth. It is also the reason why he is the sole person who has permission to pass through the gate to the Azure and enter the "realm of the gods".

Also for clarifications sake, let me see if I understand this properly. There are in fact 3 Saya out there (Origin, Noel/Mu-12 and Izanami). The Origin (Prime Field No.5) which is "Saya" and essentially the mother to Ragna, Jin and Saya. Izanami and Noel have 2 halves of Saya (the sister) and by the end of the game, the two halves were combined into Noel and thus Saya was effectively "reborn" and lives through her now. Am I missing anything? Because this whole business with so many girls sharing the same existence is kinda funky and a total mess.

 

I'm not quite understanding why the AU is so attached to Ragna. Um, can anyone clarify?

 

1 hour ago, mAc Chaos said:

Clearly you don't remember what it's like being a teenager.

 

Pffffffft, I'm actually reaching the end of those years, and now that you mention it, it all makes sense now.

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3 hours ago, BlazGearRegalia said:

 

I'm not quite understanding why the AU is so attached to Ragna. Um, can anyone clarify?

 

Its not really clarified, but the The Origin became obsessed with someone coming to save her from the eternal hell and torment she had to endure; I guess since she shares the consciousness with all of the Prime Field Devices to an extent, once No. 5 was manufactured, whom was likely based on Saya Terumi who was "devoured" by her brother (Naoto), The origin also felt this existence was her "brother" as well, and since Naoto and Ragna have such similar existences, The Origin just came to see Ragna as her brother as well. 

Ragna knows that he is the dream observed by god, but I think he understands that The Origin isn't actually related to Saya (his sister and whom Noel becomes at the end) outside of using her as a vessel, but he placated her because the nightmare would never end if he never took her dream too.

 

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1 hour ago, BlackYakuzu94 said:

Ragna knows that he is the dream observed by god, but I think he understands that The Origin isn't actually related to Saya (his sister and whom Noel becomes at the end) outside of using her as a vessel, but he placated her because the nightmare would never end if he never took her dream too.

In other words, Mori picked up FFX (reMastered) and made Ragna into Tidus, although thankfully without the added baggage of daddy issues and wangst to go along with it. Here's hoping Ragna doesn't get his head blown off after he 5Bs a football in some side novella.

As a side note, anyone else weirded out how Drives are suddenly integrated into the narrative? For instance, the big reason why people are forgetting Ragna is because he's going around and using Soul Eater to om nom nom nom all their memories of him and their would-be desires (because it can do that now). He also actively uses Devoured by Darkness on Nine (even though the shape is that of Dead Spike or possibly the Hell's Fang follow-up) and he finishes off Terumi by performing Black Onslaught. It's a little bit jarring since the past games never established a Drive's importance, though in fairness, Soul Eater is supposed to be "special".

Lastly, I would love to point out that Ragna is a very protective bro to Saya. Especially after the Noel/Mu12/Izanami merger. Kagura decides that now of all times is the moment to flirt with the newly reborn "Saya" (in Noel). Ragna's response is to deck him in the face as hard as he can. Nine would be proud and have a great big thumb of approval.

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7 hours ago, BlazGearRegalia said:

I'm not quite understanding why the AU is so attached to Ragna. Um, can anyone clarify?

Why is the AU attached? Who is Ragna talking to at the end? What does it mean that Ragna is the dream?

The game isn't explicitly clear about any of that, so the answers are all heavy speculation. They should probably moved to the speculation thread. Here are my thoughts on the matter: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/forums/topic/12979-central-fiction-speculationstheories/&do=findComment&comment=962392

 

 

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2 hours ago, Luminos564 said:

In other words, Mori picked up FFX (reMastered) and made Ragna into Tidus, although thankfully without the added baggage of daddy issues and wangst to go along with it. Here's hoping Ragna doesn't get his head blown off after he 5Bs a football in some side novella.

As a side note, anyone else weirded out how Drives are suddenly integrated into the narrative? For instance, the big reason why people are forgetting Ragna is because he's going around and using Soul Eater to om nom nom nom all their memories of him and their would-be desires (because it can do that now). He also actively uses Devoured by Darkness on Nine (even though the shape is that of Dead Spike or possibly the Hell's Fang follow-up) and he finishes off Terumi by performing Black Onslaught. It's a little bit jarring since the past games never established a Drive's importance, though in fairness, Soul Eater is supposed to be "special".

Lastly, I would love to point out that Ragna is a very protective bro to Saya. Especially after the Noel/Mu12/Izanami merger. Kagura decides that now of all times is the moment to flirt with the newly reborn "Saya" (in Noel). Ragna's response is to deck him in the face as hard as he can. Nine would be proud and have a great big thumb of approval.

Haha... "My little sister says you're hurting her, old man." Even though the main story was pretty serious, there was a good amount of humor.  Here were the scenes I noted:

Spoiler

Nine: What a detestable man. 
Relius: The pleasure is mine. 

Kokonoe: You don't have the capacity. 
Ragna: Don't worry, I have the capacity. 
Kokonoe: I'll hit you. 

Noel: What's going on Captain... U-um, I mean Major Kisaragi... Huh? 
Jin: I don't care what you call me. 

Hakumen: So you're still alive in that body. You're an unexpectedly stubborn man. 
Jin: That goes for us both, imposter. 

Kagura calls Relius "That peeping masked pervert" 

Tsubaki: Ragna is Jin's older brother... do I need to start calling Ragna "Brother" as well? I wouldn't like that at all... oh, then maybe Jin can be the one to come to the Yayoi family... 
Jin: Tsubaki, did you say something? 
Tsubaki: N-no, it was nothing! 

[Jin saves Tsubaki] 
Tsubaki: (Happy voice) Jin!
Noel: Tsubaki, are you okay!? 
Tsubaki: (Happy voice) Noel!
Ragna: Whoa, she [Nu] did quite a number on you. 
Tsubaki: (Deadpan voice) ...So you're here too. Ragna the Bloodedge.
Ragna: ...I feel like I'm the only one being treated differently. 

Kagura: Alright ghost girl. You there? 
Trinity: Um... could you stop calling me by that name... 
Kagura: Oh, sorry... You know, you've got a real nice body, it's a shame you're a ghost. 
Trinity: Did you call me out just to sexually harass me? 

Jubei: What happened to make you grow up with such a rebellious attitude? 
Kokonoe: You want to know? Look in the mirror and hit the person you see with all your strength. 

Actually, I wrote my personal thoughts out as I played the game. Do we normally create a thoughts and impressions thread? In case anyone is somehow interested...

Spoiler
  • Haha, so much recap in this game. But each retelling of Calamity Trigger seems to get better, even with all the retconning. Ugh, but so much retconning. Why did I study up on BlazBlue lore before playing this!
  • Saya's doll joints are offputting.
  • Wow, the intro played a few hours into story mode. This is going to be long.
  • The story navigation is really annoying, especially when you have to go back and access substories.
  • Tiring trope: Relius saying someone is interesting and wandering off without any explanation.
  • Tiring trope: Someone appearing at the last moment to protect someone else from getting attacked.
  • Tiring trope: The fight is even until one person focuses on something else, at which point someone who was waiting on the sidelines for this moment jumps in.
  • Tiring trope: I hate all the "him", "her", "it", and "that." Why can't anyone in this story use names! At least drop the quotes if the subject isn't supposed to be a secret anymore!
  • Something I love: Spending 10 minutes discussing a plan to have it immediately fall apart in practice.
  • Haha, Kokonoe remodels Kagura's room into an elevator while he's away and he gets depressed.
  • Haha, they redid the gag of Ragna asking Noel out.
  • Haha, Noel and Celica playing with the compressed space after being warned the lab is dangerous.
  • Nine's death scene was really nice. I really liked Nine's motivation and final scenes, especially since people were saying she had just gone crazy.
  • Aww... why is Bang delegated to the B-story with Litchi, Tao, and Arakune? The Litchi/Arakune plot took so much time in the series and never went anywhere. I feel like it could have easily been tied into the main conflict. With the way it ended, I wish they never spent any time with Litchi/Arakune... In Calamity Trigger, I liked the subplot and thought it would be cool if Bang used the Rettenjo to help bring Roy back. But as the story progressed... Roy never seemed like a very good guy, Litchi and Roy scenes did not convince me she'd dedicate her life to him, and the subplot ended up having nothing to do with the mainplot. It all just felt like a wasted story, especially given how much time in the series was dedicated to it.
  • Bullet's story sequences are so boring and so unrelated to the main story. At least she got some resolution... but who cares.
  • So many deaths... and everyone just keeps going on without looking back...
  • Jin is such a giant jerk to 90% of the cast. It's hilarious. I was half expecting him to push out Noel during the sibling hug at the end.
  • Ugh... Carl and Relius had no resolution at all. Sooooo disappointing and clear sequel bait, unless DLC character aracde modes cover it. But like with Litchi, I think Carl should have just never been included in the story.
  • I like Tao's presence though. She's pointless, but at least she's fun.
  • Ugh... so many obvious teasers for future Bloodedge Experience installments. Why are there so many dangling threads in Ragna's final BlazBlue game?
  • I liked the characterization in this game more than the other games overall. I still feel BlazBlue does a horrible job with developing relationships. I don't feel like Litchi/Roy, Trinity/Kazuma, Tsubaki/Jin, or Celica/Ragna have justifiable feelings at all. Love is so illogical in BlazBlue and minimal interaction easily leads to eternal devotion.
  • I'm still amazed at how selfish all the characters in this game, hero or villian, were. No one ever regrets any of their actions, although they sometimes regret the results. Everyone always just does what they feel like. Maybe this is closer to the real world than most Japanese stories.
  • BlazBlue had some pretty good story and lore, but I think it wasn't told very well. If it had done a better job with its pacing and foreshadowing throughout the story, I think it would be much more loved.
  • Overall, I really liked the conclusion, although I've learned to lower my expectations for Mori's stories. As usual with BlazBlue games, I liked the first half (in this case, up to Nine's death) much more than the latter half. I think the first half felt much more developed, even if some parts dragged. The sendoffs for Ragna (especially the Rachel goodbye) were very satisfying though. The dangling Carl and Relius didn't bother me nearly as much as all the dangling Bloodedge Experience characters (Naoto, Hazama, etc...) I wish Terumi's background was explained more explicitly during the story, but I overall liked his resolution too. I'm still not sure about how many Prime Field Devices were created and when. I really wish the game answered more lore questions... while it gave a lot of teasers, the time before the Dark War is still really unclear. What year did the Prime Field War happen? What happened during the Age of Origin war? What is Clavis's background and what is Rachel's background? Who created No. 5 and why? I really hope these questions are answered in the upcoming works. I know that a full timeline exists somewhere, especially since all the works have been fairly consistent.
  • The one thing I really hated was the cryptic last conversation between Saya and Ragna... I really think that was a big misstep. I'm still not sure at all what it means for Ragna to be Saya's dream. I feel like there's an important missing piece of the story that explains why Ragna was so important. I think that really sours this game being "the end of Ragna's story." I'm okay with with dangling plot threads as long as they don't relate to the main plot thread (like Carl or Relius or Age of Origin)... but this last conversation suggested that a chunk of the main story was missing. Even if he was just talking to an amalgamation of Nu or Izanami, I really wish they made it more clear.

 

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A quick side question about Jubei, since even Nine calls him that at this point.

How did the name stick? The 6 Heroes knew him at Mitsuyoshi, but Ragna goes "you're more of a Jubei" when he's sent back in time and he decides that he rather be called that to honor Bloodedge?

If Ragna's presence is gone from the world, would he even still go by that if it relies on Ragna's input?

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12 hours ago, Luminos564 said:

In other words, Mori picked up FFX (reMastered) and made Ragna into Tidus, although thankfully without the added baggage of daddy issues and wangst to go along with it. Here's hoping Ragna doesn't get his head blown off after he 5Bs a football in some side novella.

As a side note, anyone else weirded out how Drives are suddenly integrated into the narrative? For instance, the big reason why people are forgetting Ragna is because he's going around and using Soul Eater to om nom nom nom all their memories of him and their would-be desires (because it can do that now). He also actively uses Devoured by Darkness on Nine (even though the shape is that of Dead Spike or possibly the Hell's Fang follow-up) and he finishes off Terumi by performing Black Onslaught. It's a little bit jarring since the past games never established a Drive's importance, though in fairness, Soul Eater is supposed to be "special".

Lastly, I would love to point out that Ragna is a very protective bro to Saya. Especially after the Noel/Mu12/Izanami merger. Kagura decides that now of all times is the moment to flirt with the newly reborn "Saya" (in Noel). Ragna's response is to deck him in the face as hard as he can. Nine would be proud and have a great big thumb of approval.

They've always integrated the mechanics into the plot, but they never explain it. I remember them mentioning Barrier Burst and Overdrive, for instance. They probably mention Drive somewhere in CT too.

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Drive only really became an important concept in XBlaze - it then went onto Bloodedge Experience and is now important in CF. The gameplay Drives are not the same as lore Drives. A prime example is Relius, who's gameplay Drive is Detonator, which is to summon and control Ignis. But in lore, his actual Drive is to create those puppet hands we see him use in his normals, according to BE. 

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4 hours ago, VermilionBird said:

Drive only really became an important concept in XBlaze - it then went onto Bloodedge Experience and is now important in CF. The gameplay Drives are not the same as lore Drives. A prime example is Relius, who's gameplay Drive is Detonator, which is to summon and control Ignis. But in lore, his actual Drive is to create those puppet hands we see him use in his normals, according to BE. 

Good point, I remember being so confused when Izanami was said to be Amaterasu's drive; especially when she has a gameplay drive of her own.

Jeez, guess naming isn't Mori's strong suit.

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Izanami's defeat is actually pretty ironic; talks about the inevitably of death and how nobody can escape it...and that includes herself seeing how she goes out begging for her own life before her consciousness is absorbed by Noel. 

 

It also sad considering she had to watch her brother do her in.

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