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Central Fiction Speculations/Theories

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On 3/1/2017 at 9:57 PM, Fenris said:

Does anyone suspect that Alpha-01 will become a thing in the next game/series? Also, judging from the clips shown in the epilogue, does anyone think that Nu might be involved with the disappearance of Ragna's sword in the scene following the the part where she's shown recovering in bed? Might this suggest her awakening as Alpha-01 upon obtaining Ragna's sword and perhaps fusing with it somehow? (for lack of better wording)

Ah the dreaded Alpha-01 discussion. I'm kidding. Since the ending text has the Greek letter for alpha in it this is the first time where discussing her is anything more than pure crack theory. Alpha is a very real possibility in the future. To me, the sword disappearing hints at one of two possible things. One, Alpha-01 (since she was wielding Blood-Scythe, or at least something similar to it, in her first artwork) or two, Ragna still exists in the real world somehow. Personally I like the second theory because of how it ties into Rachel's journey (and I hate the idea of someone else taking the sword now that it has Rachel's ribbons tied around it, making it a symbol of her connection to Ragna) but I do not find the first one any less valid. However I highly doubt it's in any way connected to Nu. Nu didn't seem like she was recovering, she seemed near-catatonic after losing the only thing that gave her life meaning (her memories of Ragna). Furthermore, I don't think it makes any sense for the 13th Prime Field Device to "awaken" as the 1st. If we ever do see Alpha it will be as her own character. Note that we have also seen Gamma-03's art as well so it's not like anything suggests Alpha is anything but what her name implies, unit number 1 (at least of those made in the current world).

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On 29.01.2017 at 2:14 AM, Ogiga99 said:

  Otherwise the Ikaruga Civil War wouldn't have happened per Bang's wish (we know it still did because Bang was starting to rebuild it in the ending).

I forgot about that. You have got a point.

On 29.01.2017 at 2:14 AM, Ogiga99 said:

Furthermore, I would argue that Relius isn't actually a sadist. Terumi is a sadist because he actively takes pleasure in other people's suffering.

I think about Relius as a sadist or better to say a person who sometimes likes to watch other people's suffering due to fact that he really enjoyed view when a "mysterious" brother "devoured" own sister and when Valkenhayn was beaten. Things has changed and now Hazama took Terumi's role and I think he will become scarier than Terumi. I even starded to hate him when he mentioned Saya's torment. Pure, little, innocent Saya...

Moreover after CF I consider Terumi's evil actions (yes, his sadistic acts too) much more as a punishment for whole humanity -> he had a reason to do that. Humanity dared to disturb whole world's balance, tried to become gods and what is the worst created artificial objects (PFD = "dolls") because they are too weak to stand within the Boundary. Such pathetic creatures used him (god!) to own experiments.

Of course he is selfish and used humanity's actions as an occasion to achieve own goals (make a world where he will be an independent god and king as well and evereyone will be afraid of him) but still I can't really blame only him for Ragna, Saya, Noel, Celica and several other heroes' pain. Like I said in one of my first posts the responsibility lied on persons like Relius, Shuichiro (who seems to became a psycho after his wife died) and more mysterious people just from PFD War Era who we haven't known yet.

(On the other hand... I still hate much more Relius or Jin than Terumi and it was always like this so you know)

And about Carl... I am not sure. I see him similar to Kokonoe -> she and her mother have "dirty hands" beauce of their past but we can consider them as "good". Carl being a Relius 2.0 would be just boring but it's my personal view. He might be able to kill someone in the future, use to own goals etc. but in the end somehow redeem. I even doubt that Carl would be able to cooperate with someone like Relius was or use own knowledge to become an important person in NOL/other organization structure. He seens to be "lone wolf". There is also Nirvana who sometimes holds him back -> same Act 3 which you mentioned. Ah it's pretty curious if Ignis has partially own awareness so she just easily agreed with new life organized by her husband (lol) or she is just "empty" machine.

And about Alpha-01 thread.

I keep my theory from the previous year. Do you remember Phase Shift 0 novel? She may be that mystery Murakumo who was used in the first attempt of Kusanagi creation. Experiment failed cause Black Beast emerged but she somehow survived and was staying within the Boundary. The question is why she would back if she would become a plot-thing in the new BB (finally why Mori wants to complicate even more that  timeloop... Even if Alpha idea was a looooong before CF release? Enough?)

Events right before Dark War are still a mystery and CF sidestory didn't bring any fresh info about them. Kusanagi wasn't an idea in PFD Era cause humanity weren't able to use them anymore.

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On 3/2/2017 at 10:12 PM, Ogiga99 said:

1. Ah the dreaded Alpha-01 discussion. I'm kidding. Since the ending text has the Greek letter for alpha in it this is the first time where discussing her is anything more than pure crack theory. Alpha is a very real possibility in the future. To me, the sword disappearing hints at one of two possible things. One, Alpha-01 (since she was wielding Blood-Scythe, or at least something similar to it, in her first artwork) or two, Ragna still exists in the real world somehow. Personally I like the second theory because of how it ties into Rachel's journey (and I hate the idea of someone else taking the sword now that it has Rachel's ribbons tied around it, making it a symbol of her connection to Ragna) but I do not find the first one any less valid.

2. Furthermore, I don't think it makes any sense for the 13th Prime Field Device to "awaken" as the 1st. If we ever do see Alpha it will be as her own character. Note that we have also seen Gamma-03's art as well so it's not like anything suggests Alpha is anything but what her name implies, unit number 1 (at least of those made in the current world).

1. Yeah, the end of the prologue is definitely what prompted my suspicions about a Alpha-01, otherwise there was nothing else to build from. I was never a fan of the whole idea behind Alpha-01 becoming a thing just because she appeared in some artwork on Mori's Twitter, lol. At any rate, though, I've considered it worth noting that we're still unsure about the time that passed following the part where Nu is seen lying in bed and the sword's disappearance. My thoughts are that the two events having been shown in a sequence has nothing to do with the time in which they occur in respect to each other, but have more to do with symbolism. Based on what little we know, Nu could've recovered to full health sometime before the sword disappearing scene.

2. Does bring up an interesting point, though. It wouldn't make much sense at all for the 13th PFD to become what's strongly hinted to be the very first PFD. However, with the world having "restarted," it might still be possible. However STILL, the details behind what the actual hell happened to the world and the extent to which it has changed are left vague as hell. The ideas that Alpha-01 is its own thing and Ragna is still out there do indeed seem to be the strongest possibilities.

Mori sure likes to dick us around with dubious hints and crap.

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11 hours ago, Fenris said:

1. Yeah, the end of the prologue is definitely what prompted my suspicions about a Alpha-01, otherwise there was nothing else to build from. I was never a fan of the whole idea behind Alpha-01 becoming a thing just because she appeared in some artwork on Mori's Twitter, lol. At any rate, though, I've considered it worth noting that we're still unsure about the time that passed following the part where Nu is seen lying in bed and the sword's disappearance. My thoughts are that the two events having been shown in a sequence has nothing to do with the time in which they occur in respect to each other, but have more to do with symbolism. Based on what little we know, Nu could've recovered to full health sometime before the sword disappearing scene.

2. Does bring up an interesting point, though. It wouldn't make much sense at all for the 13th PFD to become what's strongly hinted to be the very first PFD. However, with the world having "restarted," it might still be possible. However STILL, the details behind what the actual hell happened to the world and the extent to which it has changed are left vague as hell. The ideas that Alpha-01 is its own thing and Ragna is still out there do indeed seem to be the strongest possibilities.

Mori sure likes to dick us around with dubious hints and crap.

Nu is more or less done she dosen't remember ragna anymore so why would she bother? Also Alpha is the first murakumo unit a special type of murakumo I think nu will be under the care of Noel and lambda. She didn't take ragna's sword how will she if she cant remember ragna?

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16 hours ago, Fenris said:

1. Yeah, the end of the prologue is definitely what prompted my suspicions about a Alpha-01, otherwise there was nothing else to build from. I was never a fan of the whole idea behind Alpha-01 becoming a thing just because she appeared in some artwork on Mori's Twitter, lol. At any rate, though, I've considered it worth noting that we're still unsure about the time that passed following the part where Nu is seen lying in bed and the sword's disappearance. My thoughts are that the two events having been shown in a sequence has nothing to do with the time in which they occur in respect to each other, but have more to do with symbolism. Based on what little we know, Nu could've recovered to full health sometime before the sword disappearing scene.

2. Does bring up an interesting point, though. It wouldn't make much sense at all for the 13th PFD to become what's strongly hinted to be the very first PFD. However, with the world having "restarted," it might still be possible. However STILL, the details behind what the actual hell happened to the world and the extent to which it has changed are left vague as hell. The ideas that Alpha-01 is its own thing and Ragna is still out there do indeed seem to be the strongest possibilities.

Mori sure likes to dick us around with dubious hints and crap.

1. I'm not sure what symbolism you think there is with Nu taking the sword. The only symbolism currently involved with Blood-Scythe is Ragna's connection to Rachel since it has her hair ribbons tied around it, which is literally the each character's most iconic item tied to each other. As for Nu's recovery, I don't think time is a factor. The issue isn't about physical recovery, it's that Nu is emotionally and mentally broken. She has lost the only thing of value in her life and doesn't even know that she's lost it. Remember her bio. Hobbies: thinking about Ragna. Values: Ragna. Likes: Ragna. Dislikes: everything else. Without Ragna there is nothing to so much as drive her to get out of bed. In the scene she is basically catatonic. Rewatch the ending scene. Nu doesn't even so much as blink when there is wind blowing in her face, she is completely unresponsive. That's not something that can simply be fixed by time.

2. I don't actually think the world really changed when Ragna created "possibility." From what we see the only things that actually happened is the people who were turned into seithr and became the Embryo have been restored and the world is able to move forward without any of the various resets that have happened throughout the series. None of that suggests a "restart" that changed the past in any way. Ikaruga was still destroyed, Jin is still unable to fight anymore etc. In fact, changing the past would inherently go against what Ragna was trying to do, create a future that people walk towards instead of trying to look back all the time. Remember "leave no regret behind." Whatever state Alpha was in or however it does or does not make sense, Ragna's actions probably have nothing to do with it. Honestly it could be as easy as she popped out of the Boundary in this time period like how Naoto got in.

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On 3/2/2017 at 7:12 PM, Ogiga99 said:

Ah the dreaded Alpha-01 discussion. I'm kidding. Since the ending text has the Greek letter for alpha in it this is the first time where discussing her is anything more than pure crack theory. Alpha is a very real possibility in the future. To me, the sword disappearing hints at one of two possible things. One, Alpha-01 (since she was wielding Blood-Scythe, or at least something similar to it, in her first artwork) or two, Ragna still exists in the real world somehow. Personally I like the second theory because of how it ties into Rachel's journey (and I hate the idea of someone else taking the sword now that it has Rachel's ribbons tied around it, making it a symbol of her connection to Ragna) but I do not find the first one any less valid. However I highly doubt it's in any way connected to Nu. Nu didn't seem like she was recovering, she seemed near-catatonic after losing the only thing that gave her life meaning (her memories of Ragna). Furthermore, I don't think it makes any sense for the 13th Prime Field Device to "awaken" as the 1st. If we ever do see Alpha it will be as her own character. Note that we have also seen Gamma-03's art as well so it's not like anything suggests Alpha is anything but what her name implies, unit number 1 (at least of those made in the current world).

Man, it feels weird after coming back for so long. Life has a peculiar form of trolling you, I tell ya.

I'd like to offer up my proposition in regards to Alpha-01 and her potential connection to Ragna. What if, hypothetically she were to be his sort-of "representative"? If Ragna is truly done having a physical presence within the BlazBlue universe (not in the story, just not there in the flesh to interact with the others) but still had work to to do, what if Alpha-01 was used to become his "avatar" as it were? Because remember, Ragna went after the desires of the Entitled to make sure they stopped abusing the Origin/Amaterasu Unit and screw over the world. Him returning as he was would no doubt be a bit counter-productive to that. I suppose I'm saying that Alpha-01 be made to Ragna, what Es was to the Azure in Central Fiction. This way she's every bit her own character but has a connection to the previous protagonist who is currently doing whatever it is that characters do in the sea of ambiguity.

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If the 5th prime field device is based on saya Terumi then that would make Ragna,Jin/Hakumen,Noel/Saya/Izanami,Lambda,mu,and Nu be the descendants of Mei and distant  relatives of Tenjou and Homura. It would explain alot since Mei and her ancestor were the priestess of the azure plus Ragna and Mei have the same foul mouth attitude.

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On 4/14/2017 at 6:11 PM, Toxin45 said:

If the 5th prime field device is based on saya Terumi then that would make Ragna,Jin/Hakumen,Noel/Saya/Izanami,Lambda,mu,and Nu be the descendants of Mei and distant  relatives of Tenjou and Homura. It would explain alot since Mei and her ancestor were the priestess of the azure plus Ragna and Mei have the same foul mouth attitude.

Naoto and Saya are from the Terumi clan, which is a branch family of the Amanohokosaka clan. I don't think they are direct descendants of Mei. And what would it explain? Ragna's connection to the Azure comes from gaining the Azure Grimoire. It's not natural to him so it has nothing to do with the Azure Shrine Maiden. Also, what do Ragna and Mei's personalities have to do with this? It's not like they are even that close since Ragna is more angry and distant while Mei is more insulting and, for lack of a better term, "bitchy." And all of this is assuming that Saya Terumi is in fact the basis of No. 5, which is not 100% confirmed.

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12 hours ago, Ogiga99 said:

Naoto and Saya are from the Terumi clan, which is a branch family of the Amanohokosaka clan. I don't think they are direct descendants of Mei. And what would it explain? Ragna's connection to the Azure comes from gaining the Azure Grimoire. It's not natural to him so it has nothing to do with the Azure Shrine Maiden. Also, what do Ragna and Mei's personalities have to do with this? It's not like they are even that close since Ragna is more angry and distant while Mei is more insulting and, for lack of a better term, "bitchy." And all of this is assuming that Saya Terumi is in fact the basis of No. 5, which is not 100% confirmed.

Well what ment is that mei has blood Cain as her drive while ragna's overdrive is called blood kain. Plus are we sure that Naoto and Raquel return to their world? I mean it dosen't look like something from their timeline.

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We could speculate if both Ragna and Saya are from „Original Amanohokosaka clan” or just a branch family from this clan but the problem  is (except other arguments) with their looks. Both Naoto and Izanami made this mess. Based on chronology we can see (theoretically) Naoto as Ragna's descendant but personally I am still waiting for time clarification:

I mean if the PFD War (and so existence of the Original World) occurred way, way before than „Azure Shrine Maiden event” or some time just before Dark War. I am stick much more to the second option but it's another subject to discuss.

However the Iznami existence.. It's just harder thread. Technically she is „only a Drive” according to Rachel's words but in the Izanami's arcade we got to know that she has own „dream”. Besides in the Story we find out that she is a part of „The Origin” soul and also reverse independent being (Izanagi system).

If we look at „vessels” term it seems that soul determines looks/appearance. A perfect vessel need to look as past self. Three examples from the series:

1) Kazuma/Hazama → both of them are Terumi's vessels. It hasn't been explained why the god personification (or rather to say soul of this god) is green haired and gold eyed man (I guess because of Terumi comparison to snake but it doesn't matter. Hello Legato Bluesummers alter ego btw.) but both of them (in looks) are same. Of course we haven't known yet if „gods” are manmade and they were created in some unknown point of time or they emerged right from the Azure or just Azure is responsible for their creation. Also ES arcade complicated it.

2) Saya → Relius needed to change her looks: he made her eyes red and dyed hair on violet, added some tattoos on back etc. Of course Saya was a perfect candidate thanks to her ability to amplify seithr and being a Grimoire of „The Origin” (Original Saya). Her soul was also crushed by Hazama/Terumi so she wasn't able to oppose. Need to say it seems that was the part of soul which contained the painful memories. Noel's part didn't remember church burning, Jin's betrayal etc.

Why the Drive's personification looks almost like Saya Terumi (according to Naoto's words)? Thing to debate. Theoreteically „the materialization of soul's power” should show the primal looks of owner of soul but the later part of my post will exclude it.

3) Nine → the perfect example that soul determines looks. We KNOW how she looked in the past. Relius put some demonic features but she is overally the same Nine.

Backing to thesis in the first sentence → because Saya („The Origin) was able to take Mu-12 as her vessel so easily I think that in the Orginal World she was a green eyed blonde girl before she was remodel into a PFD. Technically „The Origin” looks could be remodel too but I doubt that Mu-12 was random choice. She couldn't be part of Amanohokosaka even if Jin said that Tenjo is similar to Saya in last novel and even if the obvious sibling and branch Amanohokosaka family have similiar traits and skills. She should be able to took for example Tenjo as her vessel to but she didn't.

To sum it up once again: Izanami is individual person

Like I said in one of previous post -> thanks to Relius explanation in chapter V I don't buy the sh*t that Saya obtained a soul after contact with Master Unit. In my opinion both Ragna and her were humans in the Original World.

Btw. I hope Mori won't change into that „Ragna was originally male PFD” (Relius and Nine didn't mention that male PFD existed in PFD War. Besides creation of male PFD needs a Black Beast as catalyst) or just another and mysterious "post Dark War era" mad scientist knew the whole backstory of PFD War and made an experiment in which he cheated „The Origin”, Azure etc. so whole Saya („The Origin”) and Ragna relationship is fake. Please don't change/complicate it.

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@Kenji Harima: Wow dude that's a lot to unpack. First of all, you need to work on your grammar because this is really hard to follow. I'll try and address each point as they come.

On 5/21/2017 at 2:52 PM, Kenji Harima said:

We could speculate if both Ragna and Saya are from „Original Amanohokosaka clan” or just a branch family from this clan but the problem  is (except other arguments) with their looks. Both Naoto and Izanami made this mess. Based on chronology we can see (theoretically) Naoto as Ragna's descendant but personally I am still waiting for time clarification:

Ragna, Jin and Saya are not from the Amanohokosaka. They are children of Prime Field Device No. 5, which is obviously artificial. Now No.5 MIGHT be based on Saya Terumi, who is from a branch family of the Amanohokosaka but even then the relationship between the siblings and the Amanohokosaka's is tenuous at best. Their looks have nothing to do with it. I'm assuming you meant to say Ragna is Naoto's descendant, not the other way around, because what you have so far is impossible.

On 5/21/2017 at 2:52 PM, Kenji Harima said:

I mean if the PFD War (and so existence of the Original World) occurred way, way before than „Azure Shrine Maiden event” or some time just before Dark War. I am stick much more to the second option but it's another subject to discuss.

The timing of the Prime Field War is vague because it caused the entire world to reset. This could mean a unified history of the past up until the time period where the war took place and then there was a split (in which case the Azure Shrine Maiden event came first) or it could have rewritten all of human history thus making all events seem "later" than the Original world.

On 5/21/2017 at 2:52 PM, Kenji Harima said:

If we look at „vessels” term it seems that soul determines looks/appearance. A perfect vessel need to look as past self. Three examples from the series:

1) Kazuma/Hazama → both of them are Terumi's vessels. It hasn't been explained why the god personification (or rather to say soul of this god) is green haired and gold eyed man (I guess because of Terumi comparison to snake but it doesn't matter. Hello Legato Bluesummers alter ego btw.) but both of them (in looks) are same. Of course we haven't known yet if „gods” are manmade and they were created in some unknown point of time or they emerged right from the Azure or just Azure is responsible for their creation. Also ES arcade complicated it.

2) Saya → Relius needed to change her looks: he made her eyes red and dyed hair on violet, added some tattoos on back etc. Of course Saya was a perfect candidate thanks to her ability to amplify seithr and being a Grimoire of „The Origin” (Original Saya). Her soul was also crushed by Hazama/Terumi so she wasn't able to oppose. Need to say it seems that was the part of soul which contained the painful memories. Noel's part didn't remember church burning, Jin's betrayal etc.

Why the Drive's personification looks almost like Saya Terumi (according to Naoto's words)? Thing to debate. Theoreteically „the materialization of soul's power” should show the primal looks of owner of soul but the later part of my post will exclude it.

3) Nine → the perfect example that soul determines looks. We KNOW how she looked in the past. Relius put some demonic features but she is overally the same Nine.

You can't compare these types of vessels as if they're the same thing. They all follow their own rules. There is nothing that says how a vessel looks matters in the slightest.

1) Kazuma/Hazama → this is the only type of vessel they've explained even slightly. All that is said is that the soul inside must be very similar to Terumi's (hence why Hazama and Kazuma are manipulative assholes), the look has nothing to do with it. Terumi's "true form" outside of the Susano'o Unit is the black and green ghost blob we see in the first two games. Terumi's playable form is simply Trinity materializing him in the same look he had when he was possessing Kazuma. Terumi's look was determined by his vessel, not the other way around. We know that the Sankishin are not manmade. Susano'o states that it's his desire to destroy everything Amaterasu creates and since that includes all of humanity, clearly they are a result of his "sister's" work (not necessarily The Origin though). The world needs the Master Unit's Observation to exist in the first place so it can't have been manmade. Perhaps they emerged from the Azure or something since the Azure is a power even greater than Amaterasu but who knows. They might have simply existed as long as the Azure has with no origin.

2) Saya → I highly doubt Relius really needed to dye her hair for Izanami to be inhabit her. Don't forget that Izanami and Terumi are different kinds of beings and Saya and Hazama/Kazuma are different kinds of vessels. Saya is the child of Prime Field Device and Hazama/Kazuma are Azure Grimoires in human form. It is foolish to assume the same rules apply. As you said, the only reason Saya was an ideal candidate was her ability to amplify seithr. Nothing else mattered. Where did you get that Saya is not a Grimoire of the Origin? That makes no sense. In fact, Saya and The Origin have no direct connection to each other. The connection is second-hand since both Izanami and the Prime Fields based on Saya are connected to The Origin's soul but Saya herself is unrelated. Furthermore, do not call The Origin "Original Saya." The Origin has never been given the name Saya. This is "True Noel" all over again.

3) Nine → Actually this proves nothing. All it means is that Relius made the body look the same because that is how she looked in the past. There is no indication that the soul changed the body or that the vessel wouldn't work if it looked different.

On 5/21/2017 at 2:52 PM, Kenji Harima said:

Backing to thesis in the first sentence → because Saya („The Origin) was able to take Mu-12 as her vessel so easily I think that in the Orginal World she was a green eyed blonde girl before she was remodel into a PFD. Technically „The Origin” looks could be remodel too but I doubt that Mu-12 was random choice. She couldn't be part of Amanohokosaka even if Jin said that Tenjo is similar to Saya in last novel and even if the obvious sibling and branch Amanohokosaka family have similiar traits and skills. She should be able to took for example Tenjo as her vessel to but she didn't.

The Origin didn't take Noel as a vessel. That is something completely different. For one thing all Prime Field devices have a piece of The Origin's soul, not just Noel. Furthermore, Noel is The Origin's "other self." What this means exactly isn't elaborated on but it is more than simply possession. It also wasn't easy to do since apparently it was only possible because of the immense amount of energy released from Take-Mikazuchi firing on Ibukido. The Origin wasn't remodeled into a Prime Field, it's explicitly stated that she was made as one. She was artificial to begin with. Besides we already know what The Origin looks like. There's no need to speculate on that. Also, don't forget that Tenjo herself was inhabiting a vessel so even her looking like Saya says nothing. In fact, if we assumed the rules of vessels were universal (which they're not) Tenjo would completely debunk your theory since she planned to use Nirvana as her next vessel and we all know Nirvana can never be made to look human.

On 5/21/2017 at 2:52 PM, Kenji Harima said:

Like I said in one of previous post -> thanks to Relius explanation in chapter V I don't buy the sh*t that Saya obtained a soul after contact with Master Unit. In my opinion both Ragna and her were humans in the Original World.

Btw. I hope Mori won't change into that „Ragna was originally male PFD” (Relius and Nine didn't mention that male PFD existed in PFD War. Besides creation of male PFD needs a Black Beast as catalyst) or just another and mysterious "post Dark War era" mad scientist knew the whole backstory of PFD War and made an experiment in which he cheated „The Origin”, Azure etc. so whole Saya („The Origin”) and Ragna relationship is fake. Please don't change/complicate it.

It doesn't matter what you believe. The Origin (who I assume you are talking about when you say "Saya") only got a soul after contact with the Master Unit. That has been confirmed multiple times and having them originally be humans completely contradicts all the rules of Prime Field Devices. There was no "original Ragna and Saya" just The Origin and whoever her brother was (presumably another Prime Field since there is nothing that says they have to be female and Relius and Nine had no need to specify a gender for the race).

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On 26.05.2017 at 0:20 AM, Ogiga99 said:

Wow dude that's a lot to unpack. First of all, you need to work on your grammar because this is really hard to follow. I'll try and address each point as they come.

I will try. Good you pointing that out. I was overconfident of my english. It's true that I am not always able to put my thoughts and opinions clearly. I hope this post will be much more readable.

 

On 26.05.2017 at 0:20 AM, Ogiga99 said:

Ragna, Jin and Saya are not from the Amanohokosaka. They are children of Prime Field Device No. 5, which is obviously artificial. Now No.5 MIGHT be based on Saya Terumi, who is from a branch family of the Amanohokosaka but even then the relationship between the siblings and the Amanohokosaka's is tenuous at best. Their looks have nothing to do with it.

I don't like to repeat myself so this is my previous post http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/forums/topic/12979-central-fiction-speculationstheories/&do=findComment&comment=964034

To specify it → I was talking about their souls and the fact is that „The Origin's” brother reborn as Ragna The Bloodedge. He possess „The Origin's” brother soul and equally he is her brother too. Jin is totally another story.

 

On 26.05.2017 at 0:20 AM, Ogiga99 said:

The timing of the Prime Field War is vague because it caused the entire world to reset. This could mean a unified history of the past up until the time period where the war took place and then there was a split (in which case the Azure Shrine Maiden event came first) or it could have rewritten all of human history thus making all events seem "later" than the Original world.

I am still waiting for any „Material Collection” to get an explanation or at least some hints. If „Azure Shrine Maiden event” happened also in „the Original World” it would mean that Ragna wasn't the first Black Beast and the true „God of Calamity” is lying down somewhere in Boundary.

 

On 26.05.2017 at 0:20 AM, Ogiga99 said:

You can't compare these types of vessels as if they're the same thing.  I highly doubt Relius really needed to dye her hair for Izanami to be inhabit her. There's no need to speculate on that. Also, don't forget that Tenjo herself was inhabiting a vessel so even her looking like Saya says nothing. In fact, if we assumed the rules of vessels were universal (which they're not) Tenjo would completely debunk your theory since she planned to use Nirvana as her next vessel and we all know Nirvana can never be made to look human.

I compare cause they... are the only examples which we have. Anyway he did it so I doubt that act was without reason. I think he would have kept her looks (the blonde green eyed girl) if he could. Of course we can also assume that the true reason was „gameplay” or just to confuse the whole community.

Nox Nyctores (aka Arch-Enemy Weapons) are another story. Their creation required a lot of souls so if we are speaking about hmm „soul transfer” I guess they are exceptional (like Sankishin Units and Grimoires). Trinity sealed own soul within Muchorin (later she transfered herself into Yukianesa) but still she needed Platinum for any independent action.

But of course... Let's say that Platinum looking like Trinity in her „adolescent years” it's just an accident because Mori hasn't confirmed it...

 

On 26.05.2017 at 0:20 AM, Ogiga99 said:

The Origin didn't take Noel as a vessel. That is something completely different. For one thing all Prime Field devices have a piece of The Origin's soul, not just Noel. Furthermore, Noel is The Origin's "other self." What this means exactly isn't elaborated on but it is more than simply possession. It also wasn't easy to do since apparently it was only possible because of the immense amount of energy released from Take-Mikazuchi firing on Ibukido. The Origin wasn't remodeled into a Prime Field, it's explicitly stated that she was made as one. She was artificial to begin with. Where did you get that Saya is not a Grimoire of the Origin? That makes no sense. In fact, Saya and The Origin have no direct connection to each other. The connection is second-hand since both Izanami and the Prime Fields based on Saya are connected to The Origin's soul but Saya herself is unrelated. Furthermore, do not call The Origin "Original Saya." The Origin has never been given the name Saya. This is "True Noel" all over again

You said something about „rewritten history” → it's speculation but some events which occured between Ragna and Saya (Ragna and Jin's little sister) might be a parallel (I can't find a proper word) of what happened in previous world too.

Saya („The Origin) isn't able to reborn from obvious reason (her soul was sealed in Master Unit) but somehow she had a mirror self in the new world. Jubei said that our Saya (Ragna and Jin's little sister) is a Grimoire but he didn't precise what kind of.

"The Origin" was called "Saya" twice in the game... first by Terumi right before the final battle and second time by Ragna near the end of game. Why I shouldn't call her that too?

Btw. Speaking of Ibukido you reminded me something 

One of my very first posts, exactly one line:

"It also depends how long she possess OPFD's soul: proably from the beginning or better to say after Take-Mikezuchi nuked Ikaruga → at this time Noel Vermillion was born and start to sharing a body with Mu-12. I think we can assume that „The Girl” in term of personality was the same as Noel now."

Link: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/forums/topic/12113-central-fiction-arcade-plot-discussion-spoilers/&do=findComment&comment=954449

Now your response:

 

"No, the OPFD's soul cannot have been in her since Ibukido. The Master Unit is currently empty and Rachel explicitly says the world will disappear if it returns to the Boundary in this state. Logically, this means that before Amaterasu appeared in the end of CP, it was occupied by the OPFD's soul (otherwise the world wouldn't exist in the first place). The very fact that it is now empty confirms that the soul cannot be in two places at once meaning it could not be in Noel when it was in the Master Unit. Having the soul from the beginning would open up a dozen issues like how Amaterasu could use Phenomenon Intervention at the time, how could the OPFD's soul survive in the timelines where Noel doesn't exist (and how could those timelines continue to 2199 without a reset) and why didn't always have the Eye of the Azure, which the OPFD already possessed? Noel only became the Successor of the Azure AFTER the time loop was broken, meaning the Master Unit chose her long after she had her own soul."

Link: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/forums/topic/12113-central-fiction-arcade-plot-discussion-spoilers/&do=findComment&comment=954470

I guess that I predicted something? However I hoped there would have been a better explanation in the game than classic "parts of soul". However your doubts were reasonable.

On 26.05.2017 at 0:20 AM, Ogiga99 said:

The Origin (who I assume you are talking about when you say "Saya") only got a soul after contact with the Master Unit. That has been confirmed multiple times and having them originally be humans completely contradicts all the rules of Prime Field Devices. There was no "original Ragna and Saya" just The Origin and whoever her brother was (presumably another Prime Field since there is nothing that says they have to be female and Relius and Nine had no need to specify a gender for the race).

It has been confrimed multiple times in previous games, novels etc. but not in Central Fiction. Both Relius and Nine said that „The Origin” only got „Power of the Eye” and nothing more (I don't count her "sisters" -> the other PFDs who Relius mentioned in his story). They didin't say anything about „soul” or „awareness” → Same with other characters who knew something about "The Origin": Ragna, Rachel, Kokonoe, Amane etc. For me it looks like a consistent action.

Just a titbit but another consistently thing is both Naoto and Noel didn't have any interaction: they didn't meet in Story Mode nor in Arcade. What would have happened if they meet?

Remodeling a human being into PFD it's a new thing. This question didn't appear in BlazBlue universe before.

The main reason why I am so insistent that „Ragna and Saya” were humans (and ONLY them) because now it seems (If I would agree with you) that she chose a random guy as a her guardian or a random guy who possess part of her brother (Azure Grimoire). I mean how is it possible that she has so strong affection toward Ragna if they weren't a REAL sibling.

And about male PFD... Once again -> If Ragna was the very first Black Beast he couldn't be a PFD. According to Relius' words for the "male" side the catalyst is BB.

How does it contradict? The same Relius also said that the process isn't set in stone (wow I have just overthrown my previous case): different creators = diferrent methods. Give me a good arguments but not like „Because only PFD can survive within Boundary!”,  "Because all PFDs have part of "The Origin" soul!", etc.

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