Chaoschao222

Central Fiction Speculations/Theories

87 posts in this topic

On 10/15/2016 at 5:20 AM, relic.nt said:

1) Who was the Saya that Ragna was talking to in the end?

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This is my number one question because I feel like it's the only confusing thread in Ragna's story!

Who was Ragna talking to at the Master Unit? After Noel is done with all her merging, he asks to talk to The Origin, but Noel gets all dodgy. Later, Ragna goes to the Master Unit and talks to someone he refers to as Saya. She is voiced by Izanami's voice actress. He says Kushinada's Lynchpin was modeled after "it" (I'm not sure if he's referring to the Master Unit or the thing that The Origin is stuck on.) His experience with talking to Tenjo let him know to talk to "Saya." Saya complains how she was lonely, how Ragna tried to kill her, and how he even turned into a black monster. Ragna said he didn't know another way to stop her. She asks why he wanted to stop her, she was just doing what she was told. She hated that world she was making, she just wanted to be with Ragna. Ragna says he's sorry and that they'll be together from now on.

Those are the facts... the rest of what I'll write is heavy speculation.

Terumi made a comment that sounded like The Origin was the very first "monster" who Ragna didn't save. Jin says they should try to save Ragna by making him "Bloodedge" instead of "Brother." And then there's the whole business of Ragna being The Origin's dream. This really makes it sound like there's a deeper relationship than Ragna just being a possible Black Beast. In fact, it can lead to a theory that Ragna was The Origin's "brother" during the Prime Field War's original timeline. Most of us assume the "monster" Relius told Izanami about was Saya Terumi. Maybe The Origin was a converted Saya Terumi or gained Saya Terumi's soul in the Boundary. And her brother was made into the Black Beast at the end of that war. That would explain the name Saya, the Brother comments, and Ragna being the dream. You can do some mental gymnastics to explain why Naoto isn't treated as The Origin's Brother.

But there's a much simpler answer. This is the one I lean towards, just because it leaves no hanging threads. I think this Saya is explained by Rachel's story of the Hero (Ragna) and Monster (The Origin) in Chrono Phantasma. The Origin may have just been waiting for a Hero (Ragna) to end her nightmare.

The Origin shares a voice with Izanami, who was identified as The Origin's drive. It would make sense for The Origin's soul to have the same voice as her drive. This makes me think Ragna is speaking with The Origin, not Noel or her "Sisters" or Saya.

The Origin is stuck on some giant cone. I think this is what Ragna was comparing to Kushinada's Lynchpin. I think humanity knew they couldn't outright kill The Origin after she gained a soul, so they attached her to this cone to trap her soul and disable her body... So when Noel merged with the body at the end, there was at least part of The Origin leftover in the cone. Although... I guess The Origin could have just as easily been leftover in the Master Unit itself.

Regardless. Noel suggests that all Prime Field Devices have a piece of The Origin's soul. So the Origin shares a soul with all the Devices and there's always been an implied connection between memories and souls. The Origin went through a ton of trauma during the Prime Field War and throughout the games. She was always attacked and beaten. She frequently rewound time seemingly out of fear. In short, she lived a long time and went through a lot. I think that the Origin was just a schizophrenic mess by the end of Central Fiction, so she interpreted her Hero as her Brother based on her memories from Saya. I think Ragna was just humoring The Origin in the final dialogue by calling her Saya, although I also think Ragna genuinely cared about her and wanted to save her. The Origin wanted to be treated as human, so Ragna was treating her as human. It would be weird if he called her "The Origin."

Ragna said he originally had no Drive, even though he was the 'child' of No. 5. I think this might have made him a special existence. If you want a positive spin on The Origin, you could imagine that she specifically created Ragna (when she remade the world) to end her dream. She could have somehow been programmed with a dream for eternal peace (based off of some comments in Episode 8) and a Hero was the only loophole she could think of for getting around that dream. She's always been watching that Hero she made.

So that's my preferred theory. Soooo much speculation. No good answer. I hope it gets officially cleared up as it's an annoying blot on the story.

2) What does Ragna mean by saying he's Saya's dream?

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1) Saya (or in this case The Origin) is from the Original World.

Spoiler

 

She was the very first Prime Field Device

She obtained a soul and became Self Aware after she got into contact with the (empty)Master Unit in the Boundary

In doing so she got the God-like powers of Observation

Whatever she observes becomes the baseline reality

Humanity became scared of this so they killed her and threw her corpse into the Boundary

This resulted in her soul getting inside the Master Unit itself

After that all the other Prime Fields gained souls of their own and so Humanity started a war with them even though all the PFDs ever wanted was to be recognized as people.

Clavis saw all this and thought that he would give humanity a helping hand by giving them Izayoi

This was proven pretty effective at killing the PFDs but soon the PFDs started to fight back.

Even with humans having the numerical advantage the PFDs have greater firepower and strength because of their connection to the Azure

This caused them to seek even greater power and this led to the creation of the God of Calamity.

This weapon could not determine friend from foe so all it did was destroy everything.

In their deaths the PFDs poured their souls into the first one and this caused her to be filled despair.

In her desperation she remade the world with hope of being able to be given a 2nd chance at a more normal life.

And this is how the Blaz Blue world came to be.

 

2) Ragna isn't just The Origin's dream

Spoiler

 

He is her desire.

There was a Ragna in the Original World and he was also her Older Brother.

Her wish to be reunited with him resulted in Ragna being reborn in this new world as that kid that No. 5 gave birth to.

She really wanted to be with him so she made an OC that she could Self Insert into which is Kid Saya.

This added OC unbalanced the world so the world(Power of Order) made it's own OC named Jin.

Things happened, Got out of lab, yadda yadda, Church burned down, Kid Saya gets kidnapped, lost an arm, bla bla, Became worlds most notorious criminal.

Now here's the clicker.

Some time after they kidnap Saya they made Lambda-11 but that was a dud.

So they made Mu-12.

The world splits here since in one she survives, and the other she does not.

The one where she dies becomes Wheel of Fortune where Tsubaki is Jins assistant/secretary.(This is important)

The one where she survives is where she becomes Noel Vermilion.

Because this doesn't happen often Noel Vermilion becomes the Origins new SI.(This is why Noel becomes Successor of the Azure)

shenanigans happen(also known as Remix Heart)

Ragna destroys a few NOL bases and their Cauldrons.

He meets Nu-13. And they fall into the Cauldron and become the Black Beast.(This kickstarts the First Dark War of Armagus)

Sometimes Noel is the one who meets Nu-13 first.

Most of the time she dies.(This is the 2nd important thing)

Sometimes she doesn't.

Rarely she's saved by Ragna.

And when she's saved by Ragna, she saves him back by catching him before he and Nu-13 falls into the Cauldron thus breaking 1 of the time loops causing a Continuum Shift.

Every time Noel dies, in every instance, the world goes on as normal.

But whenever something happens to Ragna , the world Resets.

This is how Ragna figured out what or who the The Origin's dream is.

Ragna is the Central Fiction.

 

 

He is also a universal constant, similar to the power of order. in that every universe has a version of him in some way or form.

Touya and Sechs in XBlaze, Naoto in BE. Asuka R, Kreuz in Guilty Gear

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Well now that Blazblue is over for now I guess and also I don't think Sechs would be related to ragna because despite the same voice they are nothing alike. No Sechs please he is unrelated to ragna in anyway and also I have seen xblaze it's touya not Sechs.

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>He thinks there can only be one instance per universe

Ahahaha oh wow. Your ignorance is astounding.

 

If you think Ragna and Sech's similarity is only skin deep, you need to go back to elementary school.

Those two are more alike than Touya could ever hope to be.

 

You should go read/watch Sech's side story in Lost Memories more.

He was a caring older brother much like Ragna was before a "certain incident" happened and changed his views about the world.

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Well Sechs stop caring and tried to kill said sister also tried to detroy the world but ends up dead in every possiblltity why do you care for Sechs?

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I don't but seeing you this much butthurt over it is priceless.

The fact that all your opinions are objectively wrong is just icing to my cake.

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So how does mythology tie into Terumi and Hakumens backstory? Where's the kushinada? What went down in the age of origin regarding Terumi?

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Terumi did nothing during the Age of Origin.

In fact he had nothing to do with it at all. He was still just the Susanooh Unit back then without any will of its own. It was only after the world got destroyed and was remade several times that Terumi "woke up".

He said it himself that he only gained a will after several cycles of timeloops happened.

 

Hakumen is just Jin's soul put into the suit by order of Rachel back during Phase Shift.

It was empty and since Jin was dying at the time from when he fell through the cauldron, Loli(er) Rachel had his Soul be put inside the Susanoo Unit to help with the Dark War.

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3 hours ago, Stryker115 said:

Terumi did nothing during the Age of Origin.

In fact he had nothing to do with it at all. He was still just the Susanooh Unit back then without any will of its own. It was only after the world got destroyed and was remade several times that Terumi "woke up".

He said it himself that he only gained a will after several cycles of timeloops happened.

Where does he say that? Because I'm pretty sure him ripping himself out of the Susano'o Unit is why it was just laying around for the scientists to discover.

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On 11/27/2016 at 8:19 PM, Stryker115 said:

I don't but seeing you this much butthurt over it is priceless.

The fact that all your opinions are objectively wrong is just icing to my cake.

Just ignore all of Toxin's posts.  When he's not shitposting he's going "DUDE STOP DUDE DUDE DUUUUUDE" or whatever.  It's not worth wrestling a pig in the mud.

4 hours ago, Alpha to Omega said:

Where does he say that? Because I'm pretty sure him ripping himself out of the Susano'o Unit is why it was just laying around for the scientists to discover.

^^^This.  Terumi separated himself from the Susano'o Unit and left it around, which is why it could be excavated.  Terumi actually is the namesake for the Unit and is the actual Japanese deity, not the other way around.  Susano'o always had a will, but for the longest time it was under Amaterasu's control--he didn't just suddenly gain one.

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3 hours ago, Orihalcon said:

  Susano'o always had a will, but for the longest time it was under Amaterasu's control--he didn't just suddenly gain one.

His profile pretty much says he did just gain a will of his own one day:

Quote

In a time as long as eternity he protected Amaterasu together with Tsukuyomi, but through some cause he began to have a “will”.
After that he began to hate being bound by the Master Unit and rebelled.

 

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That's some really poor wording, since it implies he was a mindless drone before he rebelled, though I guess you could interpret 'will' as independence if you really want to.  Story Mode and Arcade Mode make it exceedingly clear though that his true form could be controlled by Amaterasu but that he always was a sentient being with a personality/soul/whatever--that personality just wasn't always the dickhead deity we saw him as.  This idea of him being a product of the Unit and not vice-versa is silly.

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9 hours ago, Orihalcon said:

Just ignore all of Toxin's posts.  When he's not shitposting he's going "DUDE STOP DUDE DUDE DUUUUUDE" or whatever.  It's not worth wrestling a pig in the mud.

^^^This.  Terumi separated himself from the Susano'o Unit and left it around, which is why it could be excavated.  Terumi actually is the namesake for the Unit and is the actual Japanese deity, not the other way around.  Susano'o always had a will, but for the longest time it was under Amaterasu's control--he didn't just suddenly gain one.

First of all  I am not a pig and second I don't sound like that. Also yeah Susanoo was loyal to amateratsu but eventually got sick and tired there's that but I am unsure how the master unit had it's own will or not before the origin came along.

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On 28.11.2016 at 1:17 AM, Stryker115 said:

1) Saya (or in this case The Origin) is from the Original World.

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A very late reply cause I have beaten the game recently. I agree with you in many aspects but... I will bring my thoughts too.

First I think that „Original Saya” was a human → a human who was turned into PFD. Not an 100% artificial being created by scientists which gained a random but as well superior soul at the meeting with Master Unit. According to Relius words if you want to create a female PFD a human (girl/woman) can be use as a base. I assume that after many trials with artificial Prime Field Devices they decided to use a second solution so they starded search. They found a perfect person to remodel her into PFD (Original Saya). Of course in the act of creation she lost her memories, own identify etc.

However after meeting with Master Unit she „woke up”, somehow reagained own "soul" and maybe memories. She acknowledged herself as a PFD and brought a lot of data into scientists' hands. When they understood how powerful their creation had become they decided to kill „it”. Mainly because of fear. After that they sealed and thrown her in the Boundary. Despite this she was still able to contact with Master Unit. Seeing how her „sisters” had been suffering she decided to intervene thus the war between humanity and PFD starded.

Need to say that Relius didn't say in his story that the „First Contact” gained something more except of „Power of the Eye”. The other story are rest of PFDs.

This „Original Saya” had an older brother (Original Ragna) who wasn't able to safe her and probably he was keeping somewhere for other experiments. He was „special” like Saya so humanity use him as a core to create a new weapon → Black Beast. Of course a lot of human souls were needed to form it. There wasn't a clear answer if humanity won the war but they wanted get the „Azure” and use it to rewrite history and rebuild world. Unfortunately for humanity (or would rather say small group of them) „The Origin” was faster. She made an „Embryo” from Black Beast and.... created a new world relied on own dream. Maybe also because she felt pity for mankind but definitely the „Human world” was probably a part of her desired Centralfiction. If world exists the chance for her brother existence is bigger.

Somehow her dear brother reborn as Ragna the Bloodedge. I doubt that someone was skilled as much as Relius to put Original Ragna's soul into our Ragna. The rest of story is known.

That's how I see it. I don't believe or would rather say... I personally find it too overcomplicated if this all sibling reliationship between „Saya” and „Ragna” is some fated and metaphysical „thing” from which the whole world and „possibilities” and even parallel worlds have been constructed since ancient times in the neverending cycle :?:

 

On 28.11.2016 at 0:15 AM, Stryker115 said:

No1 No3 and No4 are all just the same Black Beast.

Humanity didn't create multiple mini Black Beasts. They made multiple Izayois and based on Izayoi they made the MOTHER OF ALL PHENOMENA WEAPONS a.k.a. The OG Black Beast using an Ancient Ragna as the core. 

XBlaze is kinda weird because it's an altered past created from the ending of BBCF due to Ragna returning all possibilities back to the world.

Technically it's still the past so I believe that Black Beast which was mentioned in the story about Azure Shrine Maiden still lives and has a nice sleep somewhere in the Boundary. Moreover Rachel said in the very beginning of game that Izanami hopefully didn't call real Black Beast. The CF also confirmed my own suspections that Rachel has known identify of Master Unit wielder since the beginning of story.

But I got what do you mean about XBlaze. The same narration is in „The Legend of Zelda” series → sequel changed the prequel then prequel for prequel made three different timelines then again a hero from future altered „certain event” in the past where he was fought with „prime evil” so… changed this past again.

Returning back to BlazBlue story two things are bothering me:

1) Who told Saya that she need destroy the world O_o? Azure istelf? I really don't have any clue who could do that.

2) If Rags devoured her dream does it mean that she won't recognize and won't care about him anymore or she has just forgotten that he ever left her?

If the first then... Ragna not only won't enjoy his time with green-eyed beautiful blonde girl but also with satelite girl-voiced piece of junk. Just great...

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6 hours ago, Kenji Harima said:

A very late reply cause I have beaten the game recently. I agree with you in many aspects but... I will bring my thoughts too.

First I think that „Original Saya” was a human → a human who was turned into PFD. Not an 100% artificial being created by scientists which gained a random but as well superior soul at the meeting with Master Unit. According to Relius words if you want to create a female PFD a human (girl/woman) can be use as a base. I assume that after many trials with artificial Prime Field Devices they decided to use a second solution so they starded search. They found a perfect person to remodel her into PFD (Original Saya). Of course in the act of creation she lost her memories, own identify etc.

However after meeting with Master Unit she „woke up”, somehow reagained own "soul" and maybe memories. She acknowledged herself as a PFD and brought a lot of data into scientists' hands. When they understood how powerful their creation had become they decided to kill „it”. Mainly because of fear. After that they sealed and thrown her in the Boundary. Despite this she was still able to contact with Master Unit. Seeing how her „sisters” had been suffering she decided to intervene thus the war between humanity and PFD starded.

Need to say that Relius didn't say in his story that the „First Contact” gained something more except of „Power of the Eye”. The other story are rest of PFDs.

This „Original Saya” had an older brother (Original Ragna) who wasn't able to safe her and probably he was keeping somewhere for other experiments. He was „special” like Saya so humanity use him as a core to create a new weapon → Black Beast. Of course a lot of human souls were needed to form it. There wasn't a clear answer if humanity won the war but they wanted get the „Azure” and use it to rewrite history and rebuild world. Unfortunately for humanity (or would rather say small group of them) „The Origin” was faster. She made an „Embryo” from Black Beast and.... created a new world relied on own dream. Maybe also because she felt pity for mankind but definitely the „Human world” was probably a part of her desired Centralfiction. If world exists the chance for her brother existence is bigger.

Somehow her dear brother reborn as Ragna the Bloodedge. I doubt that someone was skilled as much as Relius to put Original Ragna's soul into our Ragna. The rest of story is known.

That's how I see it. I don't believe or would rather say... I personally find it too overcomplicated if this all sibling reliationship between „Saya” and „Ragna” is some fated and metaphysical „thing” from which the whole world and „possibilities” and even parallel worlds have been constructed since ancient times in the neverending cycle :?:

 

Technically it's still the past so I believe that Black Beast which was mentioned in the story about Azure Shrine Maiden still lives and has a nice sleep somewhere in the Boundary. Moreover Rachel said in the very beginning of game that Izanami hopefully didn't call real Black Beast. The CF also confirmed my own suspections that Rachel has known identify of Master Unit wielder since the beginning of story.

But I got what do you mean about XBlaze. The same narration is in „The Legend of Zelda” series → sequel changed the prequel then prequel for prequel made three different timelines then again a hero from future altered „certain event” in the past where he was fought with „prime evil” so… changed this past again.

Returning back to BlazBlue story two things are bothering me:

1) Who told Saya that she need destroy the world O_o? Azure istelf? I really don't have any clue who could do that.

2) If Rags devoured her dream does it mean that she won't recognize and won't care about him anymore or she has just forgotten that he ever left her?

If the first then... Ragna not only won't enjoy his time with green-eyed beautiful blonde girl but also with satelite girl-voiced piece of junk. Just great...

Probably both.

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On 1/6/2017 at 3:01 AM, Kenji Harima said:

1) Who told Saya that she need destroy the world O_o? Azure istelf? I really don't have any clue who could do that.

The world was already destroyed by the OG Black Beast Ragna.

All she does is keep remaking it in hopes that there could be an end where she gets reunited with her dearest Nii-sama.

It's literally the story that Rachel spoke of in CP.

On 1/6/2017 at 3:01 AM, Kenji Harima said:

2) If Rags devoured her dream does it mean that she won't recognize and won't care about him anymore or she has just forgotten that he ever left her?

Wait... which Saya are you talking about? Noel!Saya or Origin!Saya?

If it's Origin then he didn't devour her dream. He just fulfilled it by staying with her.

And before you ask any further, no he isn't inside the Amaterasu unit. He's just floating alongside it in the Boundary.

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8 hours ago, Stryker115 said:

The world was already destroyed by the OG Black Beast Ragna.

All she does is keep remaking it in hopes that there could be an end where she gets reunited with her dearest Nii-sama.

It's literally the story that Rachel spoke of in CP.

Wait... which Saya are you talking about? Noel!Saya or Origin!Saya?

If it's Origin then he didn't devour her dream. He just fulfilled it by staying with her.

And before you ask any further, no he isn't inside the Amaterasu unit. He's just floating alongside it in the Boundary.

Actually Ragna did used Soul Eater on the origin when part of her soul was inside the master unit. He did state he was gonna devour her dream after all remember? Also the after credits scene imply he is still alive and got his sword back. Specifically He wanted to devour all of the entitled's desires including the Origin's so he gave his word.He then devoured all their dreams and made everyone forget about him.

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Guess who's back!!!!!!!!!

 

9 hours ago, Stryker115 said:

And before you ask any further, no he isn't inside the Amaterasu unit. He's just floating alongside it in the Boundary.

We have absolutely no idea what happened to Ragna in the end so we can't say that he's floating in the Boundary. He might be inside the Master Unit with his "sister" or he might have disappeared completely when he became "possibility." Blood-Scythe missing from the grave at the end might even imply that he's still around in the new world but we have no guarantee that someone else didn't take it. That said if we ever do get a sequel to these events the fact that the last thing we see is Rachel beginning a journey to reunite with Ragna suggests that he is in a situation where he can return somehow (assuming they're not just teasing us like with Elizabeth's journey to save Minato/Makoto in Persona so far). It's not that different a situation from Es at the end of Code: Embryo where it seemed like she could not return without ending the world but Lost: Memories solved that problem.

 

What I want to know is what the hell is up with this version of Es because nothing about her is explained. She isn't even consistent between story mode and her victory quotes since she remembers those important to her in the former but seems confused when her data brings up searches regarding her past in the later. She never even mentions who those loved ones are by name. The closest we get is her finding Makoto familiar, clearly reminding Es of Yuki Himezuru like Makoto reminds Naoto of Yuki Hayami (who may or may not be the same person). The only clue we get about her origin is Susano'o saying she was "created by the Azure" which suggests she is in some way a different version than the XBlaze Es created by Unomaru. My best guess is that the Azure created this Es based off the one inside the World of the Tsukuyomi in between CE and LM since she is still the Embryo Storage and has memories of the XBlaze cast but doesn't recognize Nine in her victory quote (by the way, the fact that Es has no interaction with Nine and Celica rendered Watashi and Imouto's appearance in LM entirely pointless). If this is the case Es's Murakumo was probably also created by the Azure, which would explain why it suddenly has a sheath that can absorb seithr.

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On 11.01.2017 at 0:13 PM, Stryker115 said:

Wait... which Saya are you talking about? Noel!Saya or Origin!Saya?

If it's Origin then he didn't devour her dream. He just fulfilled it by staying with her.

And before you ask any further, no he isn't inside the Amaterasu unit. He's just floating alongside it in the Boundary.

„Origin!Saya” of course. Nah, I think it's obvious that Ragna didn't become a new core for Amaterasu Unit. However I am not sure about his body condition → he used Azure Grimoire twice: in fight with Hazama (unintentionally) and second time in fight with Terumi (Susano'o) to fill gap between their power. At the end of game we saw that Ragna body partially corrupted (like I mentioned in one of my previous post in this thread).

Like I said before I am still wondering if that transformation reversed in the Nemesis Horizon/above the Gate/whatever they are now conditions or it's progressing. Hope that he won't become Black Beast again...

 

On 11.01.2017 at 10:24 PM, Ogiga99 said:

Guess who's back!!!!!!!!!

He is in a situation where he can return somehow (assuming they're not just teasing us like with Elizabeth's journey to save Minato/Makoto in Persona so far). It's not that different a situation from Es at the end of Code: Embryo where it seemed like she could not return without ending the world but Lost: Memories solved that problem.

Welcome back.

As long as he is remember it's possible to bring him again into the world. Like you said it's similiar to ES' case. I think that several people know about Ragna and keeped their memories about his persona for example: Relius, Naoto, Hazama.. maybe even Carl (Ragna didn't devour his dream cause Ada would be human again) and probably Kokonoe cause she has a backup of own research and collected data within the Boundary. Moreover like we saw in the games it's possible to cheat Master Unit and Azure as well so I doubt that one „click” made by Ragna might be enough to erase his whole existence. I need to say that it's pretty naive.

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On the other hand... Am I the only one from whole community who doesn't think that Carl will become a new Relius or Relius 2.0???

Ok he was pretty crazy after he received a gift from his father but Carl has a pure goal → he really wants recover Ada. It's the main difference between both Clovers. Relius isn't only a genius but he is... pretty cruel and has a tendency to become a sadist: hanged Ada or would rather to say hanged half of her corpse which was partially remodeled was a sad view... Carl is able to kill someone though he isn't totally inhuman. Of course it (his goal) may turns in some obssesion like the Relius has (to create a perfect doll) but I doubt that Carl would end on the same path. I see him more as a opposite to Relius. An anti-hero who maybe is selfish but has a good reasons for it and will end „Puppeteer” life. Finally... it would be boring to use Carl only for Relius 2.0. Just too predictable, too simple.

 

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31 minutes ago, Kenji Harima said:

„Origin!Saya” of course. Nah, I think it's obvious that Ragna didn't become a new core for Amaterasu Unit. However I am not sure about his body condition → he used Azure Grimoire twice: in fight with Hazama (unintentionally) and second time in fight with Terumi (Susano'o) to fill gap between their power. At the end of game we saw that Ragna body partially corrupted (like I mentioned in one of my previous post in this thread).

Like I said before I am still wondering if that transformation reversed in the Nemesis Horizon/above the Gate/whatever they are now conditions or it's progressing. Hope that he won't become Black Beast again...

 

Welcome back.

As long as he is remember it's possible to bring him again into the world. Like you said it's similiar to ES' case. I think that several people know about Ragna and keeped their memories about his persona for example: Relius, Naoto, Hazama.. maybe even Carl (Ragna didn't devour his dream cause Ada would be human again) and probably Kokonoe cause she has a backup of own research and collected data within the Boundary. Moreover like we saw in the games it's possible to cheat Master Unit and Azure as well so I doubt that one „click” made by Ragna might be enough to erase his whole existence. I need to say that it's pretty naive.

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On the other hand... Am I the only one from whole community who doesn't think that Carl will become a new Relius or Relius 2.0???

Ok he was pretty crazy after he received a gift from his father but Carl has a pure goal → he really wants recover Ada. It's the main difference between both Clovers. Relius isn't only a genius but he is... pretty cruel and has a tendency to become a sadist: hanged Ada or would rather to say hanged half of her corpse which was partially remodeled was a sad view... Carl is able to kill someone though he isn't totally inhuman. Of course it (his goal) may turns in some obssesion like the Relius has (to create a perfect doll) but I doubt that Carl would end on the same path. I see him more as a opposite to Relius. An anti-hero who maybe is selfish but has a good reasons for it and will end „Puppeteer” life. Finally... it would be boring to use Carl only for Relius 2.0. Just too predictable, too simple.

 

Well Carl has gone off the deep end So I guess he'll be more neutral now.

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On 1/27/2017 at 4:04 PM, Kenji Harima said:

As long as he is remember it's possible to bring him again into the world. Like you said it's similiar to ES' case. I think that several people know about Ragna and keeped their memories about his persona for example: Relius, Naoto, Hazama.. maybe even Carl (Ragna didn't devour his dream cause Ada would be human again) and probably Kokonoe cause she has a backup of own research and collected data within the Boundary. Moreover like we saw in the games it's possible to cheat Master Unit and Azure as well so I doubt that one „click” made by Ragna might be enough to erase his whole existence. I need to say that it's pretty naive.

I don't think Carl has any memories of Ragna. It's implied that we only see a few of the people Ragna steals "desires" from and he got around to the rest of the cast offsceen. Plus it seems that whatever he did inside with the Azure at the end is what actually caused everyone to forget about him. As for Ada coming back, that's not how Ragna's use of the desires worked. Ragna created a world of "possibilities" but didn't magically grant everyone's wish. Otherwise the Ikaruga Civil War wouldn't have happened per Bang's wish (we know it still did because Bang was starting to rebuild it in the ending).

On 1/27/2017 at 4:04 PM, Kenji Harima said:

On the other hand... Am I the only one from whole community who doesn't think that Carl will become a new Relius or Relius 2.0???

Ok he was pretty crazy after he received a gift from his father but Carl has a pure goal → he really wants recover Ada. It's the main difference between both Clovers. Relius isn't only a genius but he is... pretty cruel and has a tendency to become a sadist: hanged Ada or would rather to say hanged half of her corpse which was partially remodeled was a sad view... Carl is able to kill someone though he isn't totally inhuman. Of course it (his goal) may turns in some obssesion like the Relius has (to create a perfect doll) but I doubt that Carl would end on the same path. I see him more as a opposite to Relius. An anti-hero who maybe is selfish but has a good reasons for it and will end „Puppeteer” life. Finally... it would be boring to use Carl only for Relius 2.0. Just too predictable, too simple.

 

His goal being pure or not doesn't matter. You know the saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." Carl is willing to do whatever it takes to restore Ada. In Act 3 of arcade mode he was perfectly willing to kill Noel to have his wish granted. He has also shown signs of seeing people as objects like Relius does. Even Relius himself has commented that Carl could surpass him and when Relius thinks something like that it means he sees Carl as walking along the same road. Furthermore, I would argue that Relius isn't actually a sadist. Terumi is a sadist because he actively takes pleasure in other people's suffering. Relius on the other hand simply does not care. He does exactly what he thinks is an appropriate action to acquire the data he seeks and only does so for as long as it interests him. He didn't hang Ada, he left her exactly as she was while he was experimenting on her because he got bored. Relius is nothing but a pure pursuit of science without anything to hold him back and Carl has already taken the first steps towards that same mindset. The only difference is their goals (Relius wants to create the perfect doll while Carl wants to make Ada human again) but that doesn't change anything.

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I am curious to what happened to Es though susano stated that she was made by the azure somehow and in the end she disappears wonder happened to her?

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13 hours ago, Toxin45 said:

I am curious to what happened to Es though susano stated that she was made by the azure somehow and in the end she disappears wonder happened to her?

Huh, I never even noticed that she disappeared from in front of the Azure Gate in the last shot of it. Thanks for pointing that out.

Who knows what happened to her. I doubt even Mori knows this one since absolutely no effort or thought was put into Es's inclusion in CF (which is strange since all they would need to do is have her post-LM version pulled into this world after her possibility disappeared exactly like what happened to Naoto). Earlier she said some stuff (that I can't really remember) about how she must complete her duty of guarding the gate regardless of her personal interests which would suggest she should stay there. Does that mean her role has ended? If this Es is a "clone" so to speak made by the Azure she would have nowhere to return to since presumably there is the original Es living happily after LM. I doubt we'll ever get the answer to that along with the near-infinite number questions regarding Es because apparently it isn't important enough.

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I find it funny that Relius is the only villain to get away with everything in the end of CF while Terumi and Izanami are dead,Hazama ended up in Naoto's world,and Azrael gets reimprisoned he succeeds in corrupting Carl while Relius goes into the boundary.

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Didn't bother reading the entirety of this thread on the grounds that I really shouldn't be here due to the fact that I have a 20-page research paper to complete, so pardon me if the following questions seem redundant.

Does anyone suspect that Alpha-01 will become a thing in the next game/series? Also, judging from the clips shown in the epilogue, does anyone think that Nu might be involved with the disappearance of Ragna's sword in the scene following the the part where she's shown recovering in bed? Might this suggest her awakening as Alpha-01 upon obtaining Ragna's sword and perhaps fusing with it somehow? (for lack of better wording)

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