[AC] Johnny Video Links/Video Discussion

[EtherFang777]

Just been playing Johnny since X2 came out in the US, about 2001-ish. When ever I saw a part of my game that I felt needed improvement, I would go and do what I needed to do to improve it. Which, as a Johnny player, meant a lot of repetitious practicing.

As for continuing after a KJ(frc), KJ has no hit-stop. Which means the game action doesn't pause when KJ connects. So that means you have to do your follow up actions immediately after the FRC. You gotta hit those buttons fast. If you're not fast enough to do it, just keep trying. Eventually you'll get those little finger muscles built and you'll be fast enough to do it.

I just follow up with j.S cause it gives the most damage. If I was going for something else, or it was an odd ball situation, I might use a different move. j.P would be the easiest follow. It's your fastest airmove, so it gives you the most leeway in your timing.

Cool, thanks a lot. So, about how many hours a day (rough estimate, obviously no one times themselves) would you practice to get that good?(Been watching some of your vids)

[4r5]

I just keep my ps2 on all the time with GG in training mode. When ever I need a break from what ever work I'm doing, I just spend 5mins and hack away at some MCing, FRCs, or tkEnsenga'ing. Good way to clear my head. And that's about all I do. A lot of the stuff I need practice with, now, isn't something I can get in training mode, anyways. Before I had a good level of execution, I would dedicate at least 1 hour every two days. Back in those days I also had a lot more time between classes, so it tended to be a lot more then just 1 hour every two days. When I first started getting into the game, and before I had steady, good, competition, all the practicing I did didn't mean a thing. There was no context to it. I have fought no good opponents and so I had no frame of references to know what areas of my game needed improvement. I was just in training mode fooling around doing random stuff. You can't really say, just spend this much time practicing and you'll get this good in this amount of time. You also have to take into consideration the quality of your training.

[EtherFang777]

I just keep my ps2 on all the time with GG in training mode. When ever I need a break from what ever work I'm doing, I just spend 5mins and hack away at some MCing, FRCs, or tkEnsenga'ing. Good way to clear my head. And that's about all I do. A lot of the stuff I need practice with, now, isn't something I can get in training mode, anyways.

Before I had a good level of execution, I would dedicate at least 1 hour every two days. Back in those days I also had a lot more time between classes, so it tended to be a lot more then just 1 hour every two days.

When I first started getting into the game, and before I had steady, good, competition, all the practicing I did didn't mean a thing. There was no context to it. I have fought no good opponents and so I had no frame of references to know what areas of my game needed improvement. I was just in training mode fooling around doing random stuff.

You can't really say, just spend this much time practicing and you'll get this good in this amount of time. You also have to take into consideration the quality of your training.

Yeah, it kinda sucks lately because my training is all random. I juggle between MCling everything I can, air combos(I do a lot of that) and basically getting a feel for johnny's FRCs for all the moves that are worth it. I'm still having lots of trouble after FRCing aerial joker, but other than that, I dont have anyone to play against(GODDAMN,wish AC was released for PS3 with online access) and Im just fooling around with no real frame of reference. I dont really have anyone whos good or great at playing Johnny to say what I am and arent doing.

BTW, whats Ensenga TK? Sorry, dont know all the terminology(though Im sure I know the actual thing TK refers to)

[4r5]

BTW, whats Ensenga TK? Sorry, dont know all the terminology(though Im sure I know the actual thing TK refers to)

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3425

TK means TigerKnee. TigerKnee is from one of Sagat's moves in Super Turbo. The motion is 12369K. TK now refers to the motion used to do airmoves extremely close to the ground. For example, to TK Ensenga, you would do a motion like 412369HS, starting from the ground.

[Mitsurugi]

EtherFang, if you are a "real" beginner, you shouldn't worry about FRC first IMO. Even Mist Cancel, that is vital to Johnny gameplay can wait a little you that get a good hang of the game, its physics and whatsoever (gatling, throwing, airthrow, basic combos). Then, when you feel confident, know what which move does (not confusing the different height of Mist Finer, knowing what are the normals etc.), then you can learn MC, FRC and more advanced combos. No secret, you'll have to practice, hours of training to get a feeling of him, be consistent on his FRC, don't drop your combos (those two are easy to practice in training mode, though keep in mind succeeding in training mode doesn't guarantee ythat ou will against a human player but it helps a lot), defense and attack options (JO specific or not), feint/mindgame, capitalize on a CH. Don't worry about frames at first too, you may need it, but that time will come later. Few hours in a regular basis, 1 every two days for instance, looks fine. That is one fastidious part a beginner can't escape. Maybe you should aim to a few points (2-3 ?) during a training session, for instance 20 minutes of FRC (only one at a times at first so that you learn it, try 10 times and if you don't succeed at least 8, do that again), then go to 20 minutes of MC some specific pokes, then 20 of a few combos. Eventually, right after the training mode, go play against the CPU and try to practice what you just learned for some matches. Watching video matches can help, specially if you don't have anyone to play against. You'll soon notice the major difference between the CPU and actual (and decent) players. In order to improve, you do have to meet other players and fight each others, but in the meantime, training and playing against the CPU are your only ways. Playing the CPU can be effective to practice your combo on a moving character and different ones (weight, sprite, hitbox and such), but don't take strategies into account, the CPU is dumb and don't block some hits while mindgame stuff (mix-up, cross-up etc) is pretty useless againt it. It is better than nothing if you begin, just don't assume every players play the same as the comp, think of it as a moving dummy and not an actual opponent knowing how to play Guilty Gear otherwise you'll get it wrong and learn bad habits. Anyway, don't lose confidence, stay motivated. I know people who dropped because they lost to someone and said "What the hell, I've been training but I still lost !" Your presence here shows you do are motivated, that's the way to go. Just my two cents.

[EtherFang777]

EtherFang, if you are a "real" beginner, you shouldn't worry about FRC first IMO. Even Mist Cancel, that is vital to Johnny gameplay can wait a little you that get a good hang of the game, its physics and whatsoever (gatling, throwing, airthrow, basic combos).

Then, when you feel confident, know what which move does (not confusing the different height of Mist Finer, knowing what are the normals etc.), then you can learn MC, FRC and more advanced combos.

No secret, you'll have to practice, hours of training to get a feeling of him, be consistent on his FRC, don't drop your combos (those two are easy to practice in training mode, though keep in mind succeeding in training mode doesn't guarantee ythat ou will against a human player but it helps a lot), defense and attack options (JO specific or not), feint/mindgame, capitalize on a CH.

Don't worry about frames at first too, you may need it, but that time will come later.

Few hours in a regular basis, 1 every two days for instance, looks fine. That is one fastidious part a beginner can't escape. Maybe you should aim to a few points (2-3 ?) during a training session, for instance 20 minutes of FRC (only one at a times at first so that you learn it, try 10 times and if you don't succeed at least 8, do that again), then go to 20 minutes of MC some specific pokes, then 20 of a few combos.

Eventually, right after the training mode, go play against the CPU and try to practice what you just learned for some matches.

Watching video matches can help, specially if you don't have anyone to play against. You'll soon notice the major difference between the CPU and actual (and decent) players.

In order to improve, you do have to meet other players and fight each others, but in the meantime, training and playing against the CPU are your only ways.

Playing the CPU can be effective to practice your combo on a moving character and different ones (weight, sprite, hitbox and such), but don't take strategies into account, the CPU is dumb and don't block some hits while mindgame stuff (mix-up, cross-up etc) is pretty useless againt it. It is better than nothing if you begin, just don't assume every players play the same as the comp, think of it as a moving dummy and not an actual opponent knowing how to play Guilty Gear otherwise you'll get it wrong and learn bad habits.

Anyway, don't lose confidence, stay motivated. I know people who dropped because they lost to someone and said "What the hell, I've been training but I still lost !"

Your presence here shows you do are motivated, that's the way to go.

Just my two cents.

Yeah,thanks for the input, but I cant say that I'm a complete Johnny newb. I played isuka for a little bit, and even though thats not saying much, I picked up a feel for playing johnny in general, as well as getting down some of his essentials like MCing, Ensenga TKing and basic air combos (basic being no FRCing or anything, 7-8 hit combos with no juggle). Now that I bought myself AC, I really wanna play Johnny with a level of expertise, and I know thats gunna take practice. What sucks is that I have no human opponents to fight, especially not good ones, so even if I play against the CPU that can get very easy to do very quickly even on maniac. Oh well, I hope Im gunna find someone to play against soon as well as master some more combos. Once you have command of combos and you're sure you can do them, with FRC, you're much more confident in a match because past that it's just setting up the opponent for an opening to get hit with those combos.

[Mitsurugi]

Yep, nothing will earn you more experience than playing against good human players.

On a side note, combo execution isn't as crucial as before since the KJ FRC made most of AC Johnny's combo a lot easier IMO, making it just a combo with one or two JC and including a FRC. Though it still is important, using the appropriate combo against a specific character (or else it will whiff, and such opportunities aren't many in a round).

The actual issues are landing a hit leading to combo, build a good defense, zoning game, closing the gap, not being too mechanical and predicatble etc and that is hard to learn with training mode only, as you already know.

Maybe you should check the Match Finder sub-forum (click here) see if there are people living near your location and look at the next and nearest tourney in the Event Annoucements sub-forum (here).

Anyway, welcome to Dustloop and in particular to the wonderful elite circle of the finest gentlemen playing Johnny.

[Newjack]

I'm new here too, so welcome welcome. Johnny is going to be top again, mark my words!

[EtherFang777]

I'm new here too, so welcome welcome.

Johnny is going to be top again, mark my words!

Yeah,johnny's the best guilty gear character. His moves dont have so much variety,sure, but he doesnt need it since a skilled johnny player will be fast enough to slash the shit out of someone before they ever have a chance to realize the lack of variety.

[4r5]

Hey guys! Remember the thread topic

[tj3ssa1]

I'm new here too, so welcome welcome.

Johnny is going to be top again, mark my words!

wrong sir!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=igJEiqMSWXU

[Newjack]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4-fs638Mrn4&mode=related&search=

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HRQZzUZkoM0&mode=related&search=

<3 BLEED.

[Kayin Nasaki]

Don't worry. Being bottom tier now, Johnny will probably be a cheese mchine in the next game. Just like Anji in Slash. :3

[Newjack]

Hey that's a good point. Then we can look forward to him being slammed by a nerfbat in the other game after that!

[EtherFang777]

Don't worry. Being bottom tier now, Johnny will probably be a cheese mchine in the next game. Just like Anji in Slash. :3

Dunno if this is a stupid question or not, but I'm new to AC. Why is Johnny bottom tier, especially since he's got a very useful new move? I know they nerfed divine blade transport but past that it doesnt seem like much has changed.

[4r5]

Kinda getting a bit side tracked. Continuing this in the Johnny AC Discussion thread.

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?p=177308#post177308

[Newjack]

Sorry 4r5. Does anyone have a match video of a really good #Reload player. I am starting to get into #Reload online so I need some help!!!

[EtherFang777]

Kinda getting a bit side tracked. Continuing this in the Johnny AC Discussion thread.

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?p=177308#post177308

Mmk, getting back to topic, who's arguably the best or one of the best Johnny AC players and where is there a decent supply of videos from them?

[4r5]

Try searching youtube for some MSY vids. There might of been other good Johnny's, during #r, but I didn't pay attention to player names back then, being in moonspeak and all.

[EtherFang777]

Try searching youtube for some MSY vids. There might of been other good Johnny's, during #r, but I didn't pay attention to player names back then, being in moonspeak and all.

I tried that with not much luck. MSY vids are hard to come by, especially for AC. Anyone else? Seems like Bleed gets lots of mention around here, is he considered one of the best?

[4r5]

He was asking for vids of good #r Johnny's, not AC. You can just type in "MSY" into youtube and the first result page gives you about 7 #r matches of him. BLEED is one of the best.

[EtherFang777]

He was asking for vids of good #r Johnny's, not AC. You can just type in "MSY" into youtube and the first result page gives you about 7 #r matches of him.

BLEED is one of the best.

BLEED is pretty crazy. All this speak of Johnny being nerfed and therefore bottom tier right now....but I thought guilty gear was the series to end tier lists. Hailed as the "most balanced 2D fighter" and all that. Plus, I heard things like Johnny isnt able to do much coinless/tensionless, but I see BLEED fairing just fine coinless and tensionless even against characters who were said to being able to run circles around johnny, like Jam and Baiken and the like.

Any other source for BLEED videos other than youtube? And isn't it true that, with enough experience on how the game works, and much,much practice on mastering Johnny, Johnny could slash the shit out of even the S++ tier characters?

[4r5]

Let's say there was this speed nailing contest, and you're given your choice of either a hammer, a steel bat, or a cement brick as your tool. They are all different, they all can't be equally adept at hammering nails. Over a period of time, tournament results will show one of the three consistently placing top. Over time, results will show that one of tools is of a higher caliber then the others.

There might be some exceptional players that rock hard with some of the lower end tools, but these players are just that, exceptions. There aren't enough of them to affect results, and thus affect the tiers. If there were a lot 'exceptional' players doing well with a 'low' tier tool, then these players obviously aren't exceptional. And if so many average players are doing well with something that is considered 'low' tier, then maybe this tool isn't really all that low and the tiers need to be re-evaluated.

Tiers don't take player ability in to account. Tiers are only concerned with the ability of the tool. Exceptional playing doesn't change the inherent strengths and weaknesses of a tool. For how amazingly balanced Guilty Gear's varied cast is, the differences within the cast will segregate them in to tiers of effectiveness. The object of Guilty Gear is to reduce your opponent's life to zero. Results have shown Eddie and Testament to be the best at doing this. If we were to change the object of the game to racing from one edge of the stage to the other, then Chipp and Millia would be on top. And characters like Potemkin and Johnny would be at the bottom.

In the racing example, it is easy to see why characters are tiered the way the are, and how little player skill would change the outcome. But thankfully, even though tiers still exists, Accent Core is still pretty balanced. The game offers many opportunities for player skill to overcome character deficiencies. We still see a large variety of the cast advance through tournaments. And it's not so hard to believe that, with a bit of hard work, a character can win their disadvantageous matchups.

If you want to see some more vids of BLEED and other Johnny's, I keep a youtube playlist of nearly all the Johnny matches I come across. http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=A3497F2610EBAA3D

If you want Johnny vids from sources other then youtube, then you will need to go to sites like game41 and A-Cho and wait for a Johnny player to do well in a tournament and for the arcade to upload matches from the tournament. Unless they upload all the matches from the tournament, then I guess you can watch a Johnny do bad.

[Newjack]

BLEED and DC are really good. I just prefer BLEED.

Suzume is also very good.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5mwIKWLShuU

*Edit*- That was a godly explanation btw.

[EtherFang777]

Let's say there was this speed nailing contest, and you're given your choice of either a hammer, a steel bat, or a cement brick as your tool. They are all different, they all can't be equally adept at hammering nails. Over a period of time, tournament results will show one of the three consistently placing top. Over time, results will show that one of tools is of a higher caliber then the others.

There might be some exceptional players that rock hard with some of the lower end tools, but these players are just that, exceptions. There aren't enough of them to affect results, and thus affect the tiers. If there were a lot 'exceptional' players doing well with a 'low' tier tool, then these players obviously aren't exceptional. And if so many average players are doing well with something that is considered 'low' tier, then maybe this tool isn't really all that low and the tiers need to be re-evaluated.

Tiers don't take player ability in to account. Tiers are only concerned with the ability of the tool. Exceptional playing doesn't change the inherent strengths and weaknesses of a tool. For how amazingly balanced Guilty Gear's varied cast is, the differences within the cast will segregate them in to tiers of effectiveness. The object of Guilty Gear is to reduce your opponent's life to zero. Results have shown Eddie and Testament to be the best at doing this. If we were to change the object of the game to racing from one edge of the stage to the other, then Chipp and Millia would be on top. And characters like Potemkin and Johnny would be at the bottom.

In the racing example, it is easy to see why characters are tiered the way the are, and how little player skill would change the outcome. But thankfully, even though tiers still exists, Accent Core is still pretty balanced. The game offers many opportunities for player skill to overcome character deficiencies. We still see a large variety of the cast advance through tournaments. And it's not so hard to believe that, with a bit of hard work, a character can win their disadvantageous matchups.

If you want to see some more vids of BLEED and other Johnny's, I keep a youtube playlist of nearly all the Johnny matches I come across. http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=A3497F2610EBAA3D

If you want Johnny vids from sources other then youtube, then you will need to go to sites like game41 and A-Cho and wait for a Johnny player to do well in a tournament and for the arcade to upload matches from the tournament. Unless they upload all the matches from the tournament, then I guess you can watch a Johnny do bad.

Honestly, five, that has to be one of the most intelligent, well-formulated explanations of tier list mechanics and fighting game balances/imbalances I've ever read. Basically, if someone really wants to, they can be really, really exceptional with Johnny and can beat the competition/win tournaments/etc regardless of Johnny's deficiencies,right?

I mean, I've seen BLEED run circles around characters who would be expected to utterly destroy him according to Tier lists (and by running around, I mean winning, and stylishly so) so I guess it all comes down to how much practice you have with Johnny and how well you are overall with playing accent core,yes?