Why some consider Ragna weak story-wise? A breakdown of his strength

[ManOfTheSeithr]

Some complained that Ragna 'suddenly become strong' in CF as he kicks everyone's ass there but for fans he was mostly known as 'underdog' before CF. Is it just because of him being talked down a lot despite his feared reputation or his 'many losses'? This is his battle breakdown, story mode canon ones:

NOTE: 'Base' Ragna = Ragna without active Grimoire (usual non Unlimited Ragna, not the crippled one)

Before CP True Ending (more details on Quote below)

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Most of his losses are caused by him being 'nerfed' story-wise (and gameplay wise where you can't use Soul Eater attacks), such as:

• [CT] Nu: Possibly because Ragna was heavily wounded after defeating Hakumen (he's described as covered in blood after saving Noel)
  • And in addition, back in CT Nu is pretty strong too compared to the current cast.
• [CS] Hazama: Because he shut down his Grimoire while Hazama is with active Grimoire)
  • After Ragna got Idea Engine, the fight went equal (both Ragna and Hazama with active Grimoire), and Ragna beat him there.
• [CP] Jin: Because Celica nullified his Grimoire (with even worse effects than Terumi, because he's also half blind and paralyzed)
  • Ragna already beat Jin in previous games so ofc Ragna losing to Jin here isn't because he's weak, but because obviously he's handicapped so much.
• [CP] Azrael: Same because Celica nullified his Grimoire
  • Well, for this one base Ragna may not win against 1/8th Azrael even without handicap, but Ragna was still able to hold off Azrael, even when he's crippled, pretty good feat.

What did Ragna do for battles when he wasn't handicapped (especially CP one)?

• [CT] Beat Arakune, battling Valkenhayn, defeating Jin, defeating Hakumen (with active Grimoire)
  • Valk is aging Six Heroes
  • Jin is a war hero who singlehandedly win Ikaruga Civil War, also beating up the likes of Bang and Carl, only weaker than even more powerful ones in the game like Hakumen or Nu.
• [CS] Beat Carl, Lambda, battling Rachel (non-Onlooker), defeating Hazama, doing better than Hakumen/Jin against Mu (with active Grimoire)
  • Ragna pretty much beat Carl, but got distracted by Jin hallucination so Nirvana can attack Ragna to escape.
  • Lambda has Idea Engine, so she should be close to real Murakumo Unit.
  • Rachel is no longer an Onlooker, but she still can stand against Hazama.
  • Like said above, Ragna beat Hazama on equal grounds.
• [CP] Beat up Tager, Tsubaki, stalemating against Hakumen and Nu
  • This is what happened in Ragna fights outside Celica, though admittedly Ragna is also getting better (even before CP Ending, as said by Hakumen).

His struggles/defeats without handicap?

• [CT] Rachel (if this one can be counted)
  • By far the strongest in CT (probably even on prime Six Heroes' league), she's an Onlooker, she just cannot do much because of Onlooker rules.
• [CP] Kagura
  • Debatable if Celica really affects him or not during this one.

TLDR/Conclusion for pre-CP True Ending:

All of his struggles are against an enemy that has equally or even more fearsome reputation such as (mentioning from CT to CP ones):

• Rachel (Daughter of famed Clavis and dubbed the Onlooker of the world)
• Hakumen (Leader of legendary Six Heroes who slayed Black Beast)
• Hazama (Which houses Terumi)
• Kagura (Head of Mutsuki, most powerful Duodecim in NOL, also ranked General)
• Azrael (Have many, nicknames that each one sounds as dangerous as "Grim Reaper")
• etc.

Then, most of his struggles/loses are also when Ragna is handicapped

And in conclusion for Ragna, base Ragna is actually stronger than you think. The only ones matching him/stronger back in CT was Rachel, 20% Hakumen (Ragna's stronger with Grimoire active), and Nu. And since CP he's not below 20+% Hakumen, contrary to popular belief. He's already matching him without active Grimoire and the other losses of his was only because Celica crippling him.

Post-CP True Ending and CF (more details on Quote below)

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Near end of CP from his losing streak due to nerf (Grimoire nullified) and also Kagura saying that he blindly throws power, he learned to fight skillfully, not over-relying on Grimoire and then at CP true ending he gets more improved from that; he became the Bloodedge who is MVP of Dark War, fight off Take-Mikazuchi (with Grimoire active and Celica-nullified, but its said that he's like Black Beast), and curbstomp Nu. Ragna in CF is continuation of this CP true ending, not all of a sudden can equal sealed Azrael in CF without active Grimoire; he already had feat proof before mentioned above.

But this sparks a question for CF one, "Ragna can only kick ass because Doomsday weakening the Qualified?"

While Ragna explained in CF why he's still strong (Being not Qualified), then again the majority of Qualifieds he fought in CF (apart from main villains) are Jin, Noel, Litchi, Bang, Nu, Tsubaki, Makoto, and Bullet....which, tbh, Ragna is already stronger than them all since the beginning of the game (except for Nu, since CP) without active Grimoire, and it's not like he fought them all at once, only 1v1. And for the rest...

Qualifieds are weakened gradually; When base Ragna fought Kagura (at mid game), that time his weakening didn't matter so much (and Kagura said when Ragna mastered his power - which he did at the end of CP, he can be potentially as strong/stronger than him even at base), and the other one he fought that time was Relius (which you know..). Late game, the weakening progressed to the point that even Take-Mikazuchi Nu (the one that fought both old Jubei and 20+% Hakumen) was beaten by base Ragna (And Hakumen was beaten casually by Ragna after that unlike Kagura before).

The only qualified weakening that mattered for CF Ragna is tbh, Take-Mikazuchi Nu (at late game). Ragna already stalemated Hakumen at mid CP without active Grimoire and was even stronger at CP end, so in Hakumen's case, the weakening only made base Ragna able to beat Hakumen easily when they are supposed to be even. And for Hazama, Ragna already beat Hazama in CS back then (both with active Grimoire, as CF fight is also the same).

TLDR/Conclusion for post-CP True Ending and CF:

CF Ragna isn't Ragna suddenly becoming powerful for no reason. Ragna is just being the same Ragna in CP True Ending before (In which Ragna improved himself with skill).

Also, Ragna isn't winning because of Doomsday effect, because Ragna is already stronger than most Qualifieds (such as Litchi, Makoto, Bullet, etc.) since even first game and Ragna without active Grimoire have become on par with the Qualified powerhouses like Kagura or 20+% Hakumen since CP True Ending.

[Toxin45]

We already get this dude.

[ManOfTheSeithr]

On 7/19/2019 at 9:21 AM, Toxin45 said:

We already get this dude.

What did you refer to for "get this"?

[Toxin45]

On 7/20/2019 at 12:18 PM, ManOfTheSeithr said:

What did you refer to for "get this"?

Well It is hard to say dude I mean ragna strength varies but at the end of CF he is strong enough to fight against susanno. I mean he did get a little help but still managed to kill Terumi for good.

[ManOfTheSeithr]

17 hours ago, Toxin45 said:

Well It is hard to say dude I mean ragna strength varies but at the end of CF he is strong enough to fight against susanno. I mean he did get a little help but still managed to kill Terumi for good.

It seems varies because people forget about Ragna's state also DO varies (crippled state, base Ragna state, activating Azure state, activating Azure with unlocking IDEA Engine state). Though note that there's some change for Ragna that from CT to mid CP, Ragna is a pure brawler, he fights by blindly throwing power around, while since CP End, Ragna learns to fight properly from his losses that he becomes much more efficient fighter.

• Crippled state is when Ragna is at his weakest, can be when he's mortally injured or when his Azure is nullified by Hazama or Celica, handicapping him (especially Celica one that he's half bind and can't use his right arm). Most if not all of his losses in CT-CP are in this state (likely his injury caused that in Nu, nullified by Hazama/Celica in other ones).
• Base Ragna state is when Ragna fights fresh but not activating Azure.
• Activating Azure state is when Ragna fights with his Azure activated, giving him power up from base Ragna state, usually represented in his Unlimited mode gameplay-wise.
• Activating Azure with unlocking IDEA Engine is when Ragna purposely made his Grimoire went berserk, making him out of control and had a risk of destroying his body. This one's only used once against Susano'o.

And that includes you to forget his state here.... Base Ragna was instantly defeated by Susano'o, but Ragna activated his Azure and unlocked his IDEA Engine in the 2nd confrontation (this is Ragna's near Black Beast state), therefore he's massively powered up can stand against him that time.

[Toxin45]

Well this topic is quiet now