[CS1] Hakumen Information Thread

[azureskyblu3]

but why did they nerf his drive and slow his meter gain...again?

[Spark]

3C might delay chain into 2B (on hit only?), so that it would combo into it, but not combo into itself.

[Re4L14124c]

3C might delay chain into 2B (on hit only?), so that it would combo into it, but not combo into itself.

Huh..I think I understand it a little bit, but that's still pretty weird, and wouldn't that affect 236A first?

[Blade]

EDIT EDIT EDIT: It would seem to me, they're giving hakumen more things to do without meter, but nerfing his meter gain, since he can do more things without it. If that makes sense.

They might as well give him the Ragna's normals treatment if they go that far. I thought his moves were all about conserved useage of Meter, but when you get it from sword swipes, he brings home the damage. I prefer relying on counters and zoning pokes and special chains for my damage.

[SimpleKiss]

They might as well give him the Ragna's normals treatment if they go that far. I thought his moves were all about conserved useage of Meter, but when you get it from sword swipes, he brings home the damage. I prefer relying on counters and zoning pokes and special chains for my damage.

What I mean, is that I think they're trying to make Hakumen's low/no meter game more interesting for the player, so they can do more things. That doesn't mean 3-4k damage combos without meter. I think if they are making his C moves faster, and nerfing his meter gain, While I can see the possibility of him being a zony lame character, I can also see the possibility of the developers trying to make Hakumen more offensive, too.

It all depends on the changes, but making 6B do more damage + faster C moves leads me to believe they want hakumen to build meter by actually attacking rather than staying away until he has 3-4 stars. Also, renka wallbounce sounds much more efficient. now you dont need to add guren afterwards to follow up, which means less meter required for that damage in particular. if you hit someone with 3C in CS and you have 2 stars, it's more effective to link into 2.b -> Gurren -> dash -> 5A -> ja -> j.b -> J.2a -> j.C

than to just go into renka with no follow up. As I said before that's actually a decent buff if you can still dash forward and follow up like it were guren. They're also nerfing his defensive options with the exception of yukikaze (but we're not gonna count a 4 star super.)

It seemed to me that his meter gain from damage dealing is pretty much the same, also. Like I said, I think they're trying to make him less turtley when he has no meter. But I can see how people get the opposite impression.

[zdravkelja]

I'm ok with everything if they return combos from 6D.

[Re4L14124c]

Like I said, I think they're trying to make him less turtley when he has no meter. But I can see how people get the opposite impression.

People get the wrong impression probably because they precisely didn't improve his meter gain from being offensive. His damage dealing C being faster doesn't change the fact that a lot of moves have higher priority or invincibility when you account for situations when Hakumen CAN go on offensive in a match (I think this was more obvious in CT since his zoning was subpar then; but now that you have j.C, you don't HAVE to go in; yet it doesn't change the fact that Hakumen's still not very good at being full-on offensive, isn't that what Zanshin is for?). If they're trying to make Hakumen more offensive, taking defense buffs from him isn't exactly the right way to do it.

It seems kind of contradictory to do that, too, since Hakumen was "made" to be a counter-offensive chara, like I said, that's why his special move is a counter move. Taking its capabilities away hardly seems like a logical progression for him.

[Spark]

Huh..I think I understand it a little bit, but that's still pretty weird, and wouldn't that affect 236A first?

I'm not sure what 236A has to do with it.

[Sophisticat]

I'll second the sentiment that this is the wrong direction for Hakumen. I don't mind him having an ability to zone, but it should not be his strength since it's not what he's designed for. It would make him very boring to play, too.

I've always thought of Haku as an impenetrable fortress layered like an onion; the more you tried to get in, the more dangerous it would be. What I mean is, other characters should be trying to get in on him, and the closer you get to his close game, the more lethal it becomes. First, you need to get past his zoning tools (j.C, 4c), then you'd need to watch out for his mid-range damage (6c CH). Get closer, and you encounter his regular C moves and faster B's, where his frame traps and overheads would start posing a threat. Then you encounter his (theoretical... It's never been that good) close game which would consist of frame traps, gatlings, good pokes, and the almighty Hotaru. Even then, he would still have counters at his disposal if his normals/specials can't do the job right.

Haku goes man-to-man; he doesn't zone. Justice never shies from a challenge. To me, this is the ideal version of Hakumen which CT got mostly right. A character with counters just isn't designed to be offensive.

[Re4L14124c]

I'm not sure what 236A has to do with it.

It's 3C>2B>214A>66, right?

edit: Sophisticat you're right, sorry, I keep confusing those motions, haha. Maybe that's why Spark was confused, too.

[Sophisticat]

214a (Gurren), you mean? I name specials just to prevent confusions like these, personally. Not sure what you mean it it, either.

[Tofu Warrior]

If his j. C comes out faster, maybe we can do a while rising forward jump C, then air dash/double jump into another.

[SimpleKiss]

People get the wrong impression probably because they precisely didn't improve his meter gain from being offensive. His damage dealing C being faster doesn't change the fact that a lot of moves have higher priority or invincibility when you account for situations when Hakumen CAN go on offensive in a match (I think this was more obvious in CT since his zoning was subpar then; but now that you have j.C, you don't HAVE to go in; yet it doesn't change the fact that Hakumen's still not very good at being full-on offensive, isn't that what Zanshin is for?). If they're trying to make Hakumen more offensive, taking defense buffs from him isn't exactly the right way to do it.

It seems kind of contradictory to do that, too, since Hakumen was "made" to be a counter-offensive chara, like I said, that's why his special move is a counter move. Taking its capabilities away hardly seems like a logical progression for him.

A Meaty J.2C space properly on Litchi's wakeup will eat through tsubami, create a projectile barrier and hit her in the mouth if she tries to reversal. if J.2C is faster, this technique only improves in strength against her. True, this is unique to litchi, but it is one example. and both j.2C and J.C have amazing priority. J.2C isn't used much over jump b anymore though because it's very slow now. This change means more J.2C again. And your logic is like "Ragna has a DP so *Never* be offensive against him.

I've never ever watched a Japanese or otherwise, video of a pro level Hakumen that just turtles and runs away the entire match. only when they don't have meter. Maybe I am seeing things. His projectile barrier creates opportunities as much as it keeps people out. Hakumen isn't full-on offensive because TK Tsubaki/Hop Tsubaki/Hop Hotaru/Renka Mixups all require 3-4 stars of meter stocked up to make people afraid of your approach.

I don't know, maybe I'm completely wrong here, but that's how I've seen it. And btw, Baiken has prolly the best counters I've ever seen in a 2D fighting game, and Baiken isn't a character that just sits on her ass all day.

[DrunkenSnake]

I don't think his counters were that important for his game... It may be just me, but I never used his drive too much.

I would actually make his zanshin for star farming purposes... Like... D wouldn't do any or little damage but gave you some stars + oki... Harder to counter with -> more stars... Or something like that.

[zdravkelja]

It's his special ability, it would be stupid if it's not important.

[Zeru]

Exactly, why make his drive exclusively a counter if his play style doesn't utilize it?

[Re4L14124c]

A Meaty J.2C space properly on Litchi's wakeup will eat through tsubami, create a projectile barrier and hit her in the mouth if she tries to reversal. if J.2C is faster, this technique only improves in strength against her. True, this is unique to litchi, but it is one example. and both j.2C and J.C have amazing priority. J.2C isn't used much over jump b anymore though because it's very slow now. This change means more J.2C again. And your logic is like "Ragna has a DP so *Never* be offensive against him.

It's not a logic, it's just raw data. I'm not saying Hakumen doesn't go on offense. And like you said, j.2C is not a general option for going in (without big risks, it's good if you know what you're doing, yeah)

I've never ever watched a Japanese or otherwise, video of a pro level Hakumen that just turtles and runs away the entire match. only when they don't have meter. Maybe I am seeing things. His projectile barrier creates opportunities as much as it keeps people out. Hakumen isn't full-on offensive because TK Tsubaki/Hop Tsubaki/Hop Hotaru/Renka Mixups all require 3-4 stars of meter stocked up to make people afraid of your approach.

When did I say Hakumen sits on his ass? I just said he's a counter character, naturally because his has an entire button mapped towards that function. We all know that (right?), so "why is Arcsys trying to make him into something that isn't that?" is the question...None of what I said actually contrasts yours...because I agree with you. So I don't even know why you're bringing them up while quoting me...

Maybe you are seeing things dude, take it easy, I don't even know what you're defending here.

edit: in fact, none of this has to do with loketest, I'm so confused now.

[mjting]

Just give even ONE of his D moves a legit follow up and it'll be ok. I'm still curious as how high enma launches though.

[WallJumpMan]

If his j. C comes out faster, maybe we can do a while rising forward jump C, then air dash/double jump into another.

he can already do that

Just give even ONE of his D moves a legit follow up and it'll be ok. I'm still curious as how high enma launches though.

i dun think there were any changes made to his 2d

[Sophisticat]

^ It has to be sj.'d, though.

[WallJumpMan]

^ It has to be sj.'d, though.

nope

u cud do a rising regular jump c and then do either an airdash or another double jump

the timing is kinda tight tho cuz its so close to the ground :/

[mjting]

@WJM My bad. but hey, at least 5D pls. lol. or might as well make every d a yukikaze slash lite and give fc everytime.

[Ronin Jinobi]

I don't know, maybe I'm completely wrong here, but that's how I've seen it. And btw, Baiken has prolly the best counters I've ever seen in a 2D fighting game, and Baiken isn't a character that just sits on her ass all day.

Not to be nitpicky but baiken is more agile than haku..and well you know she can dash instead of hop >.>

[SimpleKiss]

Not to be nitpicky but baiken is more agile than haku..and well you know she can dash instead of hop >.>

The whole point I was making was that having amazing counters =! Defensive character

[Blade]

I'll second the sentiment that this is the wrong direction for Hakumen. I don't mind him having an ability to zone, but it should not be his strength since it's not what he's designed for. It would make him very boring to play, too.

I've always thought of Haku as an impenetrable fortress layered like an onion; the more you tried to get in, the more dangerous it would be. What I mean is, other characters should be trying to get in on him, and the closer you get to his close game, the more lethal it becomes. First, you need to get past his zoning tools (j.C, 4c), then you'd need to watch out for his mid-range damage (6c CH). Get closer, and you encounter his regular C moves and faster B's, where his frame traps and overheads would start posing a threat. Then you encounter his (theoretical... It's never been that good) close game which would consist of frame traps, gatlings, good pokes, and the almighty Hotaru. Even then, he would still have counters at his disposal if his normals/specials can't do the job right.

Haku goes man-to-man; he doesn't zone. Justice never shies from a challenge. To me, this is the ideal version of Hakumen which CT got mostly right. A character with counters just isn't designed to be offensive.

This is why I say his Ds shouldn't be nerfed. Anyone who spams them will get thrown or mixed up in most situations anyway so it's a trade-off of good sense of how your opponent is playing.