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Mindgam3

Slayer vs. Johnny

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I couldn't believe it, but there's no thread regarding this match up. I seem to remember a bit of information a while ago which had silly things like punishing his coins with BBU on reaction, but I'm sure there are better strategies nowadays. Seeing as how the only Johnny players that I've played against are the ones that eliminate me from tournaments and then never surface again, does anyone with extensive Johnny experience care to share their tips/tricks?

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If you can react to the Coin in time to BBU it, then what's wrong with BBU? Before AC, Mappa Punching under the Coin or forward dashing through the Coin was how it was done. Is there anything in particular you are having trouble with?

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Punish backdashes hard. Really hard. Anything that has long active frames can do this(Mappa,6p,5hs,2d, etc). Make sure that when you do you get that 50% off of it. Meaty 6k then IB johnny's mashed 2hs and get free counter hits(2hs is clutch). Try not to get hit by coins as best as you can(They are not infinite). Dry TK Ensengas can get punished if you IB/SB and dash in. Keep the game grounded for you(He has ways of shutting you air game down). Get the fuck out the corner. Try to keep the unsafeness at a minimum(with Lvl 2 MF one 5k from him and you lose 50% + knockdown). Oh yeah most important, go for strike/throw mix-ups rather than high/low. Scare him from backdashing from you. Know you range...know that your optimum range is a little bit closer than Johnny's. 5k & 6P and what you get from it should make him respect you. Play patience, dont let them get the jump on you early(your weakest),Build meter, 3s chun full bar BS him. Seriously, if you cant combo video him from shit like 5k then you got some work to do cause that's what makes you have the advantage. There will be combos aplenty, make sure its not you.

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Good info posted already. My most useful advice against johnny is take all the damage you can get all the time. Johnnys awesome hitbox might give you problems if you dont adapt to it, but if you do you can get free air combos from 2k 2hs 5k mappa 5k mappa etc. Also learn to do the 5hs j.S j.k 5hs loop. Really nice damage and strangely satisfying. Keep patient and hit him when he gets predictable or go high risk and pressure him into making mistakes, I prefer to mix it up a bit so they dont get too comfortable. And BBU against coin is nice but if they "throw" a coin with 5p you will get hurt.

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Regarding the coin punished by the BBU, while it is more than true, keep in mind that in Slayer's wakeup, the Johnny player can toss the coin early enough to recover from it and block the (reversal) BBU.

On JO's wakeup, if you suspect a 2HS, go for SL's 6K to avoid it while hit him then combo from it.

If you sense an OD coming, you can 6P it.

JO's main pokes 5K [too famous "Kick on Fire" Posted ImagePosted Image ] and f.S are stuffed by BBU, plain and simple. If you are too late to act (if you prepared for it)/react though, you'll be hit during the startup of BBU. He can however stop you from BBU'ing with other pokes, preferably 2S but also 2D. Those two however can be Pile Bunkered (FB or not) if the JO gets too predictable. Or worse (for JO so better for you!) if you have 50% Tension, you can DOT him.

As every character, you should learn JO-specific combos as he has weird hitbox and weight often making him his own category of character-specific combos but when you do, it will be a bliss. You'll eat a good portion of his life while putting him in the corner and having the okizeme, even if you started from the opposite side.

Back Dash Canceling is really useful too as JO whiffing means a lot of pain for him, having horrible recovery on certain of his normals. If you add to the previous statements BDC, for instance BDC Mappa or BDC DOT, you'll be even deadlier.

You also have to learn how to move properly, how to "flow". For instance dash > jump, j.2K then back airdash, use efficiently his overpowered j.HS (know when you'll beat his coin or his 6P and be out of range/above his MF-P) and stuff like that in order to keep your opponent on edge and not what beginners often rely on to close the gap : IAD'ing all day.

And of course you always have to take into account JO's range, varying from the upper Mist Finer, his j.S, ground pokes etc.

Good SL players won't get coin easily when doing their j.HS cause they know their distance and stuff.

On the contrary, if the JO like to rush you, should he come from the air, use the many anti-air (abbreviation : AA) SL has then confirm it into an aircombo. 5P (you can add anothe 5P in order to hitconfirm more easily) or 2S works like a charm as AA.

Due to his hitbox (thanks to the damn long coat, blaaah !), you can even sometimes use BBU as an anti-air ! Though if JO does a well spaced j.HS close enough to the ground, the tip of his sword will stop your low-profile BBU.

There more to say but right now, that's all that comes to my mind. Do not hesitate to post what you think of the opposite side of this matchup, meaning what JO can do against SL, what SL can't do etc.

Knowing what are the options of both your opponent and you is the core of the understanding of how to play a matchup.

As a side note Mindgam3, as already mentioned previously, it is a good idea for you to ask for help but you should specify what are the points that make you meet difficulties.

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A good portion of my difficulty with this match-up lied in my unfamiliarity with where his combo potential/lockdown opportunities lied, and everything seems quite familiar with what I've seen. To sum up the posts above and add questions of my own:

-Punish backdashing with Mappa, 5HS, 2D (Can 6P really punish a backdash? Did you mean 6H? You can option-select the throw, and if you catch them at the right height, you can 2P->BBU->CC V-ism Bullshit)

-TK Ensengas -> IB/SB

-Slayer's ground/anti-air game is his strongest asset in this matchup (What moves would a Johnny player use in the air? j.HS? Are Slayer's anti-air options universal answers or do they vary with what Johnny does?)

-5K is staple

-6K beats Johnny's 2HS (Johnny's use this on wakeup often? Any other particularly good options for them to utilize?)

-6P beats OD (Which one?...This sounds like a bad idea, to be honest.)

-BBU stuffs 5K and f.S (Staple Johnny pokes I presume?)

-BDC is good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiKpVDsbY2M

After watching this video, it seems:

-Mappa against backdashes are good and lead to awesome black beat combo potential:

(K Mappa->5K->K Mappa->5K->K Mappa->5P->j.S[2]->j.k->j.c (jump cancel)->j.S[1]->j.D)

-j.HS is particularly good.

-j.K is a good air to air

-j.S is more prevalent in air combos (since he'll just drop and tech otherwise)

-Coin stuffs FB pilebunker...

-Johnny's use j.K as an air to ground move

-Johnny likes to 2K/2P/6P? (The punch-type move...5P perhaps?) as okizeme. These lead to combos, and subsequently death.

It might seem like I'm stating the obvious, but assumptions are a bad thing. Also, I want to keep from using my tension gauge as a BBU meter, so... Also, if any of my information is mistaken, feel free to call me out.

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You ought to be able to punish all blocked Ensengas with 2D, no need for any special blocking. Reasonable air-to-ground for Johnny, against Slayer, DivineBlade and KillerJoker. Outside of specials, j.HS or j.K. But if you ask me, if a Johnny player was going to go in on Slayer without using one of his air specials, he probably should go in at all. Against Johnny's air normals, you can almost beat them all the same way. Against really high DB(frc)'s you either block it or move out the way then see what happens next. Against KJ(frc), you can attempt to clash with it or BDC airthrow. Johnny's shouldn't be using 2HS on wakeup. Unless maybe you're playing sloppy and they're trying to exploit your sloppiness.. Johnny only has one OD. Slayer's 6P can beat it. Slayer can also BDC past its active frames, if you wanna get real fancy. BBU stuffs 5K, both slashes, 5H, etcetc. Johnny's 2K, 2S, 2D beats BBU. Slayer's 2H beats 2K, 2S and your 6P beats 2D, more often than not. Johnny can dash over your 2K, 2HS, through your BBU. Most of the fight is going to happen on the ground. You stay on the ground, and Johnny stays on the ground. If the Johnny player wants to jump, then just murder him for it. Once you establish the ground fight, it's a stare down. You're going to use 5K, 2K, 6K, and 2H. Johnny's going to use 5K, 2K, 2S, and 2D. And maybe some punches from the both of us as filler. First player to press a button loses, except you're going to hit Johnny alot harder then he's going to hit you.

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mindgam3, trust me when i say that it's a hell of a lot harder for jo to beat your 6P than it is for you to beat his OD. slayer is not the only character that does this and it's a pretty well established tactic against it (may, testament, eddie and a couple others can go through it with their 6P's). but really, you're slayer and you have ways to bait it, so there's no point in risking getting hit by it if you can avoid it. 6K feint and guard if you're that afraid of it. honestly though, johnny players will usually be intimidated if you're knocking them down a lot, and most smart ones would rather block than to risk 50% meter for something that probably isn't going to work. as for his combo potential, it basically comes down to four types of combos: low mist finers for damage (midscreen mostly), mid mist finers for knockdown (corner only), ji killer joker for damage (midscreen mostly) and ji killer joker for knockdown (midscreen and corner). if you wanna burst out his jump install combos, try to do it either as he frc's killer joker (that way he spends meter and gets the tension pulse penalty) or right before it (if you fear he's baiting the burst, as the easiest way to do so is to kjfrc and guard). for his mist finer combos, the safest way is to just burst through the mist finer (though of course, as any burst, it can be baited). when you're knocked down, take comfort in knowing that you can make johnny's life a living hell with, well, any of your reversals really. 2S is a good enough meaty at close range but it's pretty hard to stuff reversals with it. 3HS at a further range is better at it (due to being a level 5 move) but you can still beat it pretty easily. in short, it's a hell of a lot easier for you to get out than it is for him to keep you where he wants you.

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Going off memory, might be wrong at parts. I'm going to have to disagree with you on a few points Qwerty, starting with giving anti-johnny burst advice. It is NOT usually a good idea to burst Johnny's air combos, at least at the start or right after he FRC's because he can block or JC into a block. He can cancel any air move into a Killer Joker with frc and will be able to block your burst at no matter what point you timed it, so doing it early in the combo is not always advised. I understand what you're getting at though Qwerty, and waiting till after the KJ is smart. However a lot of the time when they set those up, you're at the end of the line and there is no 100% safe burst. The follow up combo that Johnny can do is often limited though depending on positioning(i.e. KJ frc block burst, 66 j.k j.d ensenga). A great place to burst is after being 1 hit enkasu'd, when JO places the mist. A JO player trying to read this might back dash to predict the burst but if you don't burst and they do that, they lose pressure. Honestly it depends what the JO player is looking for. JO is a character with many combos that require amazing timing and positioning, and bursting in different areas can either throw him completely off or allow him to get an even better combo than before. If you want to burst JO on the ground, any string that turns into 5hs is a good spot, but watch out for Johnny's that adjust their strings to eliminate 5hs as well, such as 5s©, 2k, 5s(f).

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well, i even said that's the easiest place for him to bait bursts. though you are entirely right in saying that it's misleading to think of that as a solid burst tactic, when really it's more of a one shot gimmick kind of deal, so i stand corrected. he asked though what's specific against johnny. bursting as you get knocked down is something a lot of people do instinctively anyways, although i'm glad you mentioned bacchus sigh because i forgot to (since if it's frc'd, against slayer at least, it usually means he's anticipating a burst/reversal).

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like 4r5 said, this turns into ground battle. you have 5K, 2S, 2K, 2H, 2P, forward dash, BDC, 6P, BBU, 5P, pretty much all your normals have a use... forward dashing to punish whiffs is really important in this match. as getting in the air isn't really a good idea. anti airs will get baited by the yellow dildo move.

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