[GGAC] Jam Match-up Thread

[ryokoalways]

That option select beats tic throws in one type of timing, and beats some mixups in another. Issue with that option select is it doesn't beat cross ups, and, character dependent, frame traps and feints. I'm sure you know the input to it if you just think about it a bit, since it's really simple. But it's probably one of the toughest ones to execute timing wise. And just so you know, I can't execute them very well. I do it occationally, but my success rate with them are mediocre at best. Hell, at some point in Taiwan I whored several of them out consecutively, and got face-owned for it. I'll not argue that just blocking is still the best defense. However, I definitely believe that being able to use option selects is still very important. It's like DP or FB, you don't have to always use it, but make sure your opponent knows that it's a trick that you have.

[FlashMetroid]

Did a couple things to the first post added/changed match ups changed the do and donts to notes since I didnt like the old format updated my match up chart

[atryu]

Holy shit... I got raped pretty hard by a I-No player this weekend... Again the same problem I have... I win the round like "perfect"-or-almost, or I have the feeling that there is nothing I can do... When she starts to rush, I have no idea where to block... (can't throw her as well!!! ARGH! stupid flying dash!) The best thing I have found so far, is random 632146+HS! Q1: What do you guys use as AA? Q2: How do you oki? ...as I thought of parrying the green-note-thing, but it's multihit sometimes and hits low too! Thanks!

[Climhazzardous]

Holy shit... I got raped pretty hard by a I-No player this weekend...

Again the same problem I have... I win the round like "perfect"-or-almost, or I have the feeling that there is nothing I can do... When she starts to rush, I have no idea where to block...

(can't throw her as well!!! ARGH! stupid flying dash!)

The best thing I have found so far, is random 632146+HS!

Q1: What do you guys use as AA?

Q2: How do you oki? ...as I thought of parrying the green-note-thing, but it's multihit sometimes and hits low too!

Thanks!

Learn to AA I-No's hoverdash with 5P at a certain distance, you should always win. If she knocks you down though, then only use 5P if you know that I-No is gonna go for a low mix-up. If not, then you have to block the mix-up till you see an opening really. If you learn to do that I-No's pretty much screwed; she hasn't got any pokes good enough to keep you out really, and you're alot better at keeping her away. And if you see I-No use horizontal chemi ai, then Jam's 236S is a good way to close the gap safely as it'll just go under it.

Hell, this is all advice an actual I-No player gave me lol.

[Mitsurugi]

Few general hints against I-No, not Jam specific. First, the green note is not a low. Even if its sprite touches you at the feet, it can be guarded high. Kinda like Venom's D ball in a D-formation when hit with his 2K for instance, it seems to be a low since it "rolls" on the floor, but is not. Knowing this will help you guarding accordingly since there is no mix-up with it. Otherwise, I-No and Venom would have unblockable setups thanks to this. Against her dash pressure strings, FD it to gain extra space and to narrow her options. That should be easier. Pushed back, she will often have to dash again. That is the moment you'll want to take the advantage, the opening.

[atryu]

First, the green note is not a low. Even if its sprite touches you at the feet, it can be guarded high.

yeah... but can't seem to parry the shit...

anyway, THX for the input Mitsu... FD huh? (I don't really use it that much, I give you that!)

So when she dashes, you counter the dashed hit with a 5P into (f)5S -> Jamming loop?

Like 5P counter -> (f)5S -> 2HS -> 236+S~D kindda thing?

[FlashMetroid]

- Added I-no match up - Broke down which loops work on who Ill take request on stuff if people want

[Hintalove]

Would it be possible to mention which of those loops on what characters end in knock downs naturally, and which characters/loops require a fb at the end to knock down? Back in the states I got in the habit of charging a lot after loops, even non-kd ones because people just plain don't know where they can tech. I had to remedy that quickly though because charging after a techable loop = free combo for your opponent a lot of the time. Is there enough time to confirm a knock down off a combo so you leave your self open to throw their tech?

[FlashMetroid]

Would it be possible to mention which of those loops on what characters end in knock downs naturally, and which characters/loops require a fb at the end to knock down?

Back in the states I got in the habit of charging a lot after loops, even non-kd ones because people just plain don't know where they can tech. I had to remedy that quickly though because charging after a techable loop = free combo for your opponent a lot of the time. Is there enough time to confirm a knock down off a combo so you leave your self open to throw their tech?

Honestly I dont know but ill test it soon though

[ryokoalways]

if loop ends at 17-18 beats or above, it's basically instant tech after wallstick. Otherwise, control your height during the loop, although that is really difficult since you are already spending time deciding what version to use for 3 reps. Honestly, just choose between 3 reps and continuous pressure, or two reps and knockdown. And personally, after you are able to get in one combo on any char, they should be just another one away from dying, in which case, I'd rather just continue to get in the opponents face than let them get to even ground by charging a kick. In the end, I think it just comes with experience. The mods are posting useful information and all, but in a real fight, there is no time to recall everything. I say just keep playing till the point when things just come naturally. You shouldn't need to think about what combos to do, as the distance and height recognition should come instantly. You should spend more time thinking about your next move rather than your current combo.

[FlashMetroid]

I personally have never hit a 17-18 hit combo ever lol.... My combos usually end at 10-13 Im doing it as we speak so ill be updating it in a bit

[ryokoalways]

well 17-18 is one of those 50% + charged kick combos that has a few hits on the ground to begin with (about 3-4, before the kick). Most combos are between 10-15, tension dependent, as you said. I think the length of the combo should be more dependent on the guard bar than if you want to get a knockdown. Because Jam's knockdown in the corner isn't really scary. Getting knockdown in the middle of the field is much more dangerous for the opponent. Land a jh crossup, and go into 2d slide kick charge kick combo, or do a variation of dropkick mixup into either tk dragon charge or FB charge, location dependent. Any of the above 3 combos will do 65% at least once you are done.

[ryokoalways]

You know what? I'm so stupid. Just do this. at the end of your loop, if you want a knockdown, do FB into 236s~h, and then 2h at the right height into 6h to shoot the opponent into the middle of the screen. You get your knockdown, your charge, and you get to face him at the open field, which in my opinion is better than the corner.

[FlashMetroid]

Actually im gonna have to disagree with you there I think the corner is the most dangerous place for a person to be just becuase they have no choice but to move foward or stay where they are Personally the last thing I wanna do is give away the corner ill sacfirice damage, bar, and cards before I give away position Also even when I do those charged kick combos I still dont hit 18 hits....lol off a charge kick combo I usually do 2 reps which knocks down for sure for a free card and next touch is GGPO Anyway the whole knockdown thing isnt a really a big deal to me im probably not getting a card regardless unless its a special match up. And if they wanna try to get out of the corner they better be prepared to tech foward into my grab which they can tech which throws them right back into the corner lol or be thrown back into it either way im not giving away my position

[ryokoalways]

That's fine, must be difference in playing style, either that or my corner pressure isn't good enough. As for 17-18 hits, don't bother with it, that's one of them "I think I can kill him here and now so let's go for it" type combos, not practical usually. Most of the time, it's pointless to go beyond 14-15 hits, as scaling makes additional tension usage pointless. In the other case, if you have the opponents guardbar even slightly up, the dude will die before you get to 18 hits. So, yeah, that was just a threshold number regarding instant tech. Hell, at certain situations 14 hits also results in instant tech.

[FlashMetroid]

Yeah different styles I know I have never not even ONCE used crossup jhs lol actually its never even cross my mind to use it like that probably becuase I tried to use that back in XX/Reload and it never worked out for me so I forgot about it but jhs cross up, 2d, 236s, k, charged ryuujin sounds pretty painful so im gonna check that out heh

[Doren2k]

Actually best damage from crossup j.HS I do. Crossup j.HS, Far slash, TK kick, Charge Ryujin, into hot loop. Shit turns into omfg please stop hitting me damage its sick! Crossup IAD j.HS works well for me I use it alot sometimes. When I get people scared to jump out and airgrab my stuff.

[Honnou]

Dorens sounds nice but it would have to be on a standing opponent unless they were massive crouching (potemkin) right? Flashs would work on crouching/standing.

[Hintalove]

Well, to be fair, crossups are historically aimed at standing opponents. If your opponent is crouching you can just overhead them, crossups are the counter to people who can block high. God I just got raped so hard by a pro millia, like I lost 5 times in 15-20m and I think maybe only took like one round the whole time. It wasn't just not being able to block the wtfmixup, but like, if she wasn't jumping it didn't feel like I could hit her with anything, and throwing her frclessly doesn't really net anything special. Feels kinda like chip where her grounded normals feel like they are consistantly beating mine. I was pretty much just trying to lock her down and get her with some frame traps into puffball or 5k/2s, but she would just block. Even after I ch threw her(the round I won, lol) she would just block and block, and ib back dash until I eventually made some kind of opening while I plugged on with my frustrated offense.

[ryokoalways]

Well, I'm not saying the one I listed is the only cross up combo. I choose my different combo depending on location, because there is an optimal wallstick height for each character. Of course, gotta take into account the amt of tension available too. For some character, it's necessary to use an FB for height correction. There are alot of things to take into consideration. I can only read the combos perfect for around 2-3 chars. The others I choose the wrong one fairly often. Regardless, crossup jh 2d is amazing. At least it will get you a knockdown and a charge. The two variations are jh > 2s(optional. Within range, works as burst bait) > 2d > slide kick > charge kick. Location wise: <25-40% screen- Link into 2s > 2h > loop. For heavier char, try 2p(or 5k) > 2h if 2s doesn't work. 40-70% screen- 2 choices here. One if use FB to adjust height, then regular loop. Two is 236s~h (i think that would be 55%+), but you need to be able to do the reverse FB. You know, when the 236s~h wall bounce switch the target to the other side of you (non-wall), then you 5s > 2h(1 or 2, gotta learn to read it) > FB, and nail him back into the corner. 70-100% Screen- straight into 236s~h. Then 6h > h will yield optimal height for most chars. You can go into 2 more loops, or add another FB. I think these are about right, the distance to wall is roughly, but should be useful as reference. The other variation is jh > 5s > tk kick > charge kick. This one almost always requires FB to readjust height, because if you tk, you are already at a higher height than slide kick, which means you land later, meaning 236s~h for some options are out of question. Another problem is that since you tked the opponent, they are also at a greater height, meaning that they wallstick higher, and will probably be able to tech before they reach the optimal height for you to combo them, thus requiring FB to readjust. Basically, for tk version, I only do it if I have a lot of tension, because it does have higher dmg potential if you finish the combo. Otherwise, the slide kick version only takes a card and 25% tension.

[FlashMetroid]

Actually 80% of the time you dont really need to reverse FB to throw them back in the corner you can just take a few steps back and go with the original combo or even do 5S, 2HS, FB just alittle something for the people who cant do the cross up FB yet Does this happen to anyone else? sometimes on super light retarded characters like dizzy and faust there are times where I dont wanna waste my bar and they are in the corner and I land a random loop opportunity but they are too high and I find myself doing 2HS, 236S, S, dash in 2S, 2HS, FB I find myself using that alot these days

[ryokoalways]

See, the problem is that they will be able to tech before they reach 2h height. Which is why there are two versions. The immediately FB is easy, while the reverse FB is more dmg. For Dizzy, you just have to learn how to setup for her. It's not bad after you learn it. One good way to fix it is 2h(2hits). Otherwise just use a FB to readjust imo. She takes a shitload of dmg regardless, so it's ok to not be stingy here.

[Doren2k]

I never used that combo Flash it sounds neat though. When I loop on lights I FB them so they can fall down alittle and then run in deep as they falling down and 6HS Hs, that can give you like 2 more reps non tension on everyone unless its real deep into the combo and you get push back. Or if you have tension to blow and your cool like me! Reverse FB loop them! Dizzy feels the pain on this one . I dont remeber how I looped Faust since i've only faced 1 in my life lol. I didn't know Faust was light lolz.

[R.D.K]

Well, to be fair, crossups are historically aimed at standing opponents. If your opponent is crouching you can just overhead them, crossups are the counter to people who can block high.

God I just got raped so hard by a pro millia, like I lost 5 times in 15-20m and I think maybe only took like one round the whole time. It wasn't just not being able to block the wtfmixup, but like, if she wasn't jumping it didn't feel like I could hit her with anything, and throwing her frclessly doesn't really net anything special. Feels kinda like chip where her grounded normals feel like they are consistantly beating mine.

I was pretty much just trying to lock her down and get her with some frame traps into puffball or 5k/2s, but she would just block. Even after I ch threw her(the round I won, lol) she would just block and block, and ib back dash until I eventually made some kind of opening while I plugged on with my frustrated offense.

I feel you man my team mate is a milla player he gets on my fucking nerves. All you have to do is 2s and 6p that bitch and its over because she does not have that much health to begin with!!! Stop the arrow you stop milla plane and simple!!!!

[atryu]

I have just played an Eddie 20 min ago... lost 7 times before I beat the shit out of the dude! (most difficult match up for me in the whole fighting games history...) this is what I found out: Attack from the air! high air! ..as in super-jump. (and do not stay on the ground as you'll get your ass raped horribly!!!) The only hits I could land in were: - super-Jump, AD / 236+P, Cross-HS, 2D charge(if no card); 236+S~K => charged-WATCHAAAA in his dead-ugly demon face -> Jamming loop. (this is what worked best for me!) Besides, if he blocks the cross-JHS, you can mind-game him into a 214+K... as there is high chance he will block low to prevent from the 2D... especially if you "removed" a good 80% of his life bare in the previous round with it! ^^ If the 214+K connects, I did dash-in, 5S, JC, JK, JD(2hits), 214+K, 236236+HS, JS, JS, JHS, WATCHAAAAA! (kind of improvised combo, I found that out trying to deal as much damage as possible every time I hit! ...I might use it again..^^) - Wake-up parry on little eddie, 2S CH on eddie -> whatever combo you want, but try to do as much damage as possible as other opportunities will be rare! (watch out for the drill that stays too long on screen for parry!) - random FB puffballs (in the worst case, it hits both but eddie will fly away for you to back-IAD-charge a card on wake up!) - JS, JS, JHS, WATCHAAAA when he flies over you. I would really appreciate some hints on what to do when stuck in a ground pressure, as for me it just means "losing the round" if I have no Burst. And if some player with more experience with Eddie can post it here, that would be cool as it was the second time only I play against this char, and 7-1 is pretty lame!