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Honnou

NEW I-NO General FAQ and Update Thread: No more random threads all over the place!

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I've been trying more of the 2P tick throws you suggested, Bob, and I found it especially useful for timing tick throws after blocked notes. I'm a little more hesitant to use it after a wiffing j.H on people I've "scared them into blocking" because a common reaction around here to not being in blockstun as I'm hitting the ground seems to be "OMG mash throw". Redashing and counterhitting people's defensive throws can discourage them, if this is the case, as well as playing around with the rhythm and method of your approach.

Otherwise, has anyone else thought at all about this:

41236H jc(9)... j.D~FD~j.S? That's j.D-FD-cancelling late out of your forward-jump-cancelled H.Stroke and immediately coming down with j.S. (There's a mouthful.) You can time it so that the j.S both juggles on the stroke hitting (follow up with 5P, maybe 5K) and would still put the opponent back in blockstun otherwise. It's probably quirky in how it reacts with people's air hurtboxes, but what isn't with this character?

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OoOoO, that sounds fun. I need to play with j.D FDC more. : )

And yeah, I should have specified that using notes is part of scaring people into blocking. I don't see that much in person (when I do it's usually the same people always just mashing H in block strings), but I always get thrown going for that stuff online, so I know exactly what you're talking about. My bad. And yeah, Vosetri's post about j.D also helps scare people into not mashing throw. And also meaty j.K into j.D. And land > j.D for wtf lulz action, when j.D beats some of their ground moves (like say when you're doing shenanigans against Sol and he knows enough to block rather than have VV baited, but also knows enough to just 5K since it's fast enough to beat our stuff once he's confirmed we landed, and then your random j.D after landing beats the 5K).

I also like to spam Fortissimo on oki to see if I can bait throws with it (or any non-DP). That tends to stop that BS immediately. I tend to overdo it though, so I need to break that habit. At least it doesn't prorate meter gain, and it gives us another mixup when blocked.

I need to work IAD pressure string tick-throws into my game. Before the airdash changes in +R, you could do 66956 j.K > j.S > j.K > j.P, and then do j.D or land and 5P to bait something that beats the j.D. That itself wasn't a strong mixup, but you also had j.K > j.S > j.H (whiff landing) > 2K/throw.

Now with the airdash changes you'll float longer and either have to delay your air string to get that to work, or would have to do something like j.S > j.K > j.S > j.H (whiff landing) or j.K > j.S > j.K > j.P > j.H. I feel like that's way too telegraphed though. What made the first setup I mentioned scary was that you'd condition them to watch for j.D so they could reaction punish it, but then land early. If they're not mindlessly mashing a reversal out during the string, but actually watching for the j.D like you want, you can trigger the mental refractory period with this. It's like a weird brain lag where you don't even realize you're lagging, whereas normally you can tell if you've reacted late after training your reaction time. It's a strong mixup by itself to go into low/throw out of nowhere, but you can also fuck around with frame traps off of this. So let's say you were going to throw, but you do 2P to tick throw with. You can probably say **** this and go for another dash in j.S to get an unprorated overhead starter, or if you're really a douche do another landing j.H into 2S (just so it hits them that they misguessed your actions so bad that you just danced in their face for a full second without them doing anything - hurt their morale). They'll still be reacting to "where'd that 2P come from?" and behave according to that situation when you start, so they'll react late to seeing you start dashing again and start blocking high as you start 2S.

The mental refractory period is the sort of thing that can requires a specific reaction to a stimulus, and then a distraction. If they're just going off of anticipating you doing high/lows and trying to block, you'll mess them up, but the best reward is just the tick throw or the low (if you go for the fancy stuff they'll just keep blocking and odds are you'll just let them get away with it). If they're just going to DP out, that's also usually not enough because they're committed to the act of "fuck you" rather than reacting appropriately. You have to catch someone committing to blocking until that specific opportunity to get out, and then fake that opportunity into something unexpected. They go "I need to deal with this unforeseen threat" while you're doing something else already. Now, if they were going to just mash DP and you expected that, of course just land into block. They wont react to seeing you waiting and will just DP out against your block.

But I find that this sort of strategy tends to be somewhat weak since skilled players usually find option selects that act as fail-safes against this sort of conditioning, or they'll just know that you're conditioning them and wont fall for it. Having lots of variance in your approach makes these sorts of strategies stronger, since they have less pattern recognition to go off of to keep up with you, and feel pressured to commit to a high-risk punish when they have few experiences with the prior mixup. And then of course newbs will just mash DP or hold back, so trying to get fancy doesn't really work because they're not trying to react. It also doesn't work when the other player gets stubborn. When it works though... high damage option mixup when you would have only gotten away with 2K/throw.

Anyway, if you guys have any tips on what to do with IAD pressure strings now that I-No's airdash is different, let me know. I need mixup tricks for that stuff too, since airdash options are still good for baiting backdashes and such.

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Otherwise, has anyone else thought at all about this:

41236H jc(9)... j.D~FD~j.S? That's j.D-FD-cancelling late out of your forward-jump-cancelled H.Stroke and immediately coming down with j.S. (There's a mouthful.) You can time it so that the j.S both juggles on the stroke hitting (follow up with 5P, maybe 5K) and would still put the opponent back in blockstun otherwise

its kinda point less to do this cause you can just fd after the HS stroke then j.s for the same options..(like baiting, and 'safe' pressure ) its possible....but not pratical

However, cute shit you can do with this just J.D fdc cancel after the Jumpcancel then she'll like 'hop' then you have dash high option or low option again, heh

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Anyway, if you guys have any tips on what to do with IAD pressure strings now that I-No's airdash is different, let me know. I need mixup tricks for that stuff too, since airdash options are still good for baiting backdashes and such.

I need to really play around with these more in +R, but the one thing I've noticed 2rio doing is hover dash > iad > j.K j.P j.HS. I'm not 100% sure what the advantage of this is, besides the gap between j.P and j.HS will punish someone who accidentally up-backs or mashes, but I've seen it done.

its kinda point less to do this cause you can just fd after the HS stroke then j.s for the same options..(like baiting, and 'safe' pressure ) its possible....but not pratical

Eh, I don't know that it's that pointless. I'm talking about doing a little 'hop' like you say. Just do the j.D-FDC late enough so that the j.S has time to come out. (Too soon of a j.D-FDC and you're immediately hitting the ground and risk dealing with the extra ground recovery that j.D forces.) This should leave a small-enough gap that anti-air normals will get counterhit. It looks like it even has the potential to safe jump some reversals input in that small gap.

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I-no wiki updated with Combos (including glossary and optimal starters). I've done meterless, 6frc6, and FB as of now, with sub-categories.

If something is missing and you can edit, please do so but be sure to place the combo in its respective category and follow the already established format for uniformity.

Damage values coming soon! -- If you are feeling up to the challenge of testing the combo damage values for the combos (all tested already since they are actual options I use all the time), please use a uniform Damage/Guts/Hitbox character like Testament, Faust, Sol or Zappa. Please place damage value after last value on the combo annex at the end/bottom of every combo.

ie. [MS, KD, 25%, 225dmg]

Glossary is before combo section for your reference.

Thanks guys, let's make the wiki THE go-to-place for relevant I-no combo knowledge and information.

Edited by mynus

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How do we have to note the damage values for the combos starting by "Starter" ?

I just tested the very first one on Testa with a lot of different starters, and the values go from 71 to 120.

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Good question. I suppose lets focus on the combos with specific openers for now, and think up.an idea for the "starter" labeled gatling combos.

We could do one for best starter (5S) and one for okay starter (2K), so notation would look like:

[CN, KD, 25%, DMG = 215(5S)/165(2K)]

Edited by mynus

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Ok :) I tested some basic ones on Testa and Faust this morning, so I will probably update the wiki tonight.

Oh, and just to be sure, there's one combo that seem impossible to me:

j.D > dj.H > P Dive > air dash j.H > P Dive > air dash j.H > S Dive > c.S > VCL

You can't get that second air dash after two jumps and an airdash, no ? Or did I miss something ? Do we just have to S Dive without airdashing ?

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Yeah, you're using a jump option between the j.D to the dj.H, and then using the second on the airdash out of that Pdive. Go into j.H > Sdive, j.S/H > FFVCL, or whatever else works.

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thanks, I missed that.

Also, Optimizing Punishes & Burst Bait/Punish sections are up.

Edited by mynus

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Wow, great job Mynus.

For damage values, the first list of combos is almost done (and edited in the wiki), but:

- I just can't do the DM HCL thing : x (well, sometimes I get it but I can't combo with 5P after it)

- for the 9TNine combo (with the late airdash after high air VCL), I just can't get 2S > HCL to work. Is it a mistake, or does it really connect ? Apart from that, if the 6P happens midscreen, the opponent is pushed to the corner where you can go for c.5S > j.S > j.H > K Dive for 166dmg.

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The j.S connects. It's free. On Sol/Anji so try it on them. These are AA versions of the combo since you'll most likely never start any I-no combo with point blank 6P. 9TNines proof of concept got us here tho so I want to add his examples out of respect/thanks/reference.

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I-no wiki updated with Combos (including glossary and optimal starters). I've done meterless, 6frc6, and FB as of now, with sub-categories.

If something is missing and you can edit, please do so but be sure to place the combo in its respective category and follow the already established format for uniformity.

Damage values coming soon! -- If you are feeling up to the challenge of testing the combo damage values for the combos (all tested already since they are actual options I use all the time), please use a uniform Damage/Guts/Hitbox character like Testament, Faust, Sol or Zappa. Please place damage value after last value on the combo annex at the end/bottom of every combo.

ie. [MS, KD, 25%, 225dmg]

Glossary is before combo section for your reference.

Thanks guys, let's make the wiki THE go-to-place for relevant I-no combo knowledge and information.

No, thank you for putting a lot of work in, especially in my absence. Added a super combos section, feel free to expand on it. I put in a few basic ones and will add more as I go along.

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Thanks Honnou !

I won't be home for the next 4 days, so there won't be any updates of the damage values until next week. But I'll keep going !

Also, I did'nt mention it, but I ran into some troubles to land some of the combos on Testa or Sol. I know Sol's hitbox can be a pain sometimes. Usually they work well on Faust. Don't know if my execution is in cause or it's just the combo is somewhat character specific.

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Hey, anyone know the minimum amount of time it takes to do something like HD > j.S > dj.D > FDC > j.K? Like, how wide is the gap between j.S and j.K in that example, where you double jump to j.D and FDC back into j.K? It'd also be useful for figuring out the risk factor for stupid shit like oki 2K > c.S (confirm that it's a block string) > j.D > FDC > 2K/2S. I'm pretty sure double jumping is instant, otherwise those j.S > j.H probably wouldn't work. I don't know how long it takes to faultless or release faultless, other than it doesn't start on the first frame, or how far into j.D you have to be to FDC it. The one thing I do know is that the 'c.S > jump cancel to j.D FDC into another low' example would add 4 frames to the gap for the jump startup.

I'm wondering if the aerial version of 'float in (optional j.K) > j.S > dj.D > FDC > j.K' can be used as a frame trap on people that expect to poke out against a simple j.D mixup or not. Even if it's not frame tight, you might catch someone not buffering their DP properly and get hit because they're not holding back. Otherwise, it's just another mixup that probably isn't as good as j.S > slightly delayed dj.D, which also crosses up and leads to damage when you follow with HCL > 4FRC4 now that we have the extra airdash.

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j.D can be cancelled into FD on 1 and 2 frames. However with burst in can be cancelled only on 2 frame. Generally that mixup can be really fast and without any gap (j.S, dj.D fdc, j.K), but that depends on execution.

Goind into c.S, j.D fdc, land 2K is bad and risky cuz fdc does not cut landing recovery of j.D. Basically fdc trick is good for messing with timing of overheads and trajectory. Sometimes it can be used as crossup on wakeups.

Also it can be used as OS for airthrow (without your burst, input is 4D+H~K/P, work for any character, not only i-no).

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Thanks. That explains the odd timing when I was playing around with that the other day. I guess going back into 2K is only viable if you've committed the other guy to blocking, in which case there are usually safer options. Even if you lock them down with FB note you tend to have better options. I'm assuming that you can't store a jump install by going from the FDC into 2S because of the landing recovery, which means the big-damage option out of that mixup doesn't work unless you can combo into 5H, which makes it sort of shitty.

I'll definitely play with oki crossup shenanigans and throw OS though.

*Edit*

Actually, if you did c.S > j.D FDC > j.H > low, would that cut the landing recovery, or would it still apply?

*Second Edit*

Forgot to update after I tested this that it still applies. I guess that explains why I have difficulty linking into 5P/c.S with some corner VCL combos. They're the ones that involve j.D.

This stuff needs to be in the wiki. I'll look for it and if it's not already there I'll add it during my lunch break or something.

Edited by TheRealBobMan

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Must say, while they certainly made her more user friendly, she flat out sucks now. Damage is way too nerfed.

I love the new mobility and FB into negative edge UF looks sick.

Tried some stuff out in training mode to see what was and still wasn't possible. A lot more stuff works, but damn damage is pathetic.

Vs HOS STBT H 5K HCL FRC jH VCL [cS VCL FRC jS VCL] x3 HCL = 225

VS Slayer 2S HCL FRC jS VCL 5K HCL FRC jS VCL [cS VCL FRC jS VCL] x2 HCL = 239

Vs Slayer 6H 5K HCL FRC jH VCL cS jS jH PDIVE jH PDIVE jS jH KDIVE = 230

VS Slayer 6P 5H jH PDIVE HCL FRC jH PDIVE HCL FRC jH VCL cS jS jH HCL FRC jH PDIVE KDIVE = 230

VS Slayer jS cS 6P STBT S 5K HCL FRC jS VCL 5H jH PDIVE jH PDIVE jS jH KDIVE = 194

Vs Slayer STBT H HCL FRC jH VCL [cS VCL FRC jS VCL] x3 HCL = 230

Vs Slayer STBT H UF jH PDIVE jS VCL FRC jS VCL cS VCL FRC jS VCL cS HCL = 244

Seems a jump installed 2S is her best opener now.

Edited by Pestilence

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Must say, while they certainly made her more user friendly, she flat out sucks now. Damage is way too nerfed.

I love the new mobility and FB into negative edge UF looks sick.

Tried some stuff out in training mode to see what was and still wasn't possible. A lot more stuff works, but damn damage is pathetic.

Vs HOS STBT H 5K HCL FRC jH VCL [cS VCL FRC jS VCL] x3 HCL = 225

VS Slayer 2S HCL FRC jS VCL 5K HCL FRC jS VCL [cS VCL FRC jS VCL] x2 HCL = 239

Vs Slayer 6H 5K HCL FRC jH VCL cS jS jH PDIVE jH PDIVE jS jH KDIVE = 230

VS Slayer 6P 5H jH PDIVE HCL FRC jH PDIVE HCL FRC jH VCL cS jS jH HCL FRC jH PDIVE KDIVE = 230

VS Slayer jS cS 6P STBT S 5K HCL FRC jS VCL 5H jH PDIVE jH PDIVE jS jH KDIVE = 194

Vs Slayer STBT H HCL FRC jH VCL [cS VCL FRC jS VCL] x3 HCL = 230

Vs Slayer STBT H UF jH PDIVE jS VCL FRC jS VCL cS VCL FRC jS VCL cS HCL = 244

Seems a jump installed 2S is her best opener now.

Her damage is fine. Also, everyone got a health buff from 420 to 460, so you could argue everyone does less. The new tools far outweigh the minor damage losses she got (90% force prorate on 6P, 80% prorate on S Dive... I don't remember anything actually having it's base damage lowered).

-9

Edited by 9TNine

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Two moves got their base damage buffed (FB Dive and Hdive), but we got 2 new forced prorates (FB dive and 6P) and 3 new prorates (STBT-S, STBT-H, and Sdive).

Average damage is down off of most starters. Maximum damage is probably the same considering we have new combo options with the extra airdash, and with VCL recovering in the air. Just gotta experiment more. There are new combo routes. You can still do great meterless damage off of some starters... try comboing STBT-H off of CH 5H/2H, then going into Pdive > airdash for corner push > freestyle. Fish for more Kdive counter hits. Use the faster recovery on f.S to frametrap!

Just uh... if you land a 2K or f.S, do a meter gain combo instead of a damage combo, then use FBnote oki to crank guard bar and go for an unprorated set-up. Experiment with Pdive knockdown. If you do FBnote from the distance you push yourself away from with Pdive, the notes will hit 10 times and crank the GB to flashing. Great way to force them to FD/DA/Burst or eat a 45-80% combo.

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I honestly didn't know about the life boost across the board. I'm sure that's exactly why I felt she was weaker.

love the Pdive HCL JH PDIVE HCL tricks she can do now. Dunno, gonna take some getting used to.

Edited by Pestilence

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Okay so what's every one getting for max damage. vs Dizzy UF into Skyloop = 335

UF jH PDIVE HCL jH PDIVE HCL jH VCL cS HCL

liking new i-no a lot more today. love the skyloop. seems c.s and 2s are the new 5k.

Edited by Pestilence

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One thing i think would be interesting to see is if it's possible to do j.D FD cancel after a blocked H STBT, if it's doable, it would lead to one hell of a mixup, either you do j.S or you land for 2S. Would seem really powerful.

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