[CS1] Lambda Video Thread

[tuka]

Sorry to disappoint you both but melee Lambda is a horrible idea; both Ragnas and the Lambda you played against were just bad.

Any decent player (especially Ragna) could EASILY out-poke anything you throw at him. Hell even Lambda can out-poke her mixups in a mirror.

Her normals weren't meant for more than a 3-4 hit blockstring into 2C or 5/6B for a jump cancel to safety.

Throwing a feint or two once in a while is a good idea but revolving your entire game around it is crazy dangerous.

My theory is if your opponent is just going to block, you might as well throw some TK feints in there. It doesn't even matter if you do 2147D~C > 3C, or 2147D~C > 2147D. The point is to just screw with them so they start getting into the mentality of blocking. And if your opponent is blocking, Lambda has enough tools to break down his defence.

This barely applies to random online players, and even then I would recommend taking it with a grain of salt.

If you're in the mood for advice, try doing the complete opposite.

Play a swords only Lambda, don't let the opponent even get near you.

Once you master that you'll make the opponent get into the exact mentality you were talking about, he will obviously try approaching you but he's going to be very reluctant to do so, giving you the best opening to go for some melee strings.

[germanturkey]

playing swords only lambda will set you up for failure. two of my friends play hakumen and hazama, and that forces you to not use swords. i'm confident that if i don't use swords for a while, then begin to mix them back in with a melee routine, i'll overall become a better player.

[Nakkiel]

Lambda is a zoning character, forgoing her main gameplay so you can use a playstyle she's less suited for would be setting yourself up for failure.

And no, neither Hakumen nor Hazama force you to not use swords. If you feel like you're forced to stop using them, you're not using them intelligently.

I'd say a better idea is not to isolate a facet of your character in exchange for another one, but learn both at the same time so you can be proficient in both.

[tuka]

playing swords only lambda will set you up for failure. two of my friends play hakumen and hazama, and that forces you to not use swords. i'm confident that if i don't use swords for a while, then begin to mix them back in with a melee routine, i'll overall become a better player.

I wholeheartedly disagree with you.

Surprisingly enough (not really) two of my best friend also play Hakumen and Hazama, and they absolutely force you to use your swords.

What have they done to make you think you shouldn't? both outclass Lambda's normals by miles.

Hakumen has a hard time with good zoning, he blocks and waits for inevitable holes in your strings, once he's in you should just IB everything and backdash or 2/5A to reset the situation.

Hazama will just try to out-zone you, especially with his j.6D's, it's pretty much mindgames. Best solution is IB'ing his chains and 5A if he pulls himself in, it will greatly reduce the chain spam. Keep in mind he will rape you from up close with his 2/5A and 5B, not to mention easily counter any air approach from Lambda with 5A, 2C or 214D~B.

[Overheat]

Any decent player (especially Ragna) could EASILY out-poke anything you throw at him. Hell even Lambda can out-poke her mixups in a mirror. This barely applies to random online players, and even then I would recommend taking it with a grain of salt.

=P I play this game for fun. I can zone or play melee. How come the American pros I've fought still had trouble? How come Pulsr does similar stuff to me? The only people who can read whether or not I TK feint are LostSoul and my bro who knows almost all my tricks. Lambda's normals are underrated. 2C jump cancel is pretty basic stuff. Amateur mix-up really =/

Don't bash on me please. I was playing aggressively on purpose there. Usually it's zone until there's an opening for melee. The Lambda was his sub. It doesn't matter if he's good or not. I was trying to demonstrate what Lambda can do. And that is a great Ragna. Please stop insulting people.

And I disagree with being poked out of pressure. 5B > 6A > 6B > TK feint. Almost guaranteed your opponent is going to block. Or 5B > 6A > 5B > 2B > 6B into whatever you want. Unless you're Tager, you're probably not going to be able to punish that.

[tuka]

=P I play this game for fun. I can zone or play melee. How come the American pros I've fought still had trouble? How come Pulsr does similar stuff to me? The only people who can read whether or not I TK feint are LostSoul and my bro who knows almost all my tricks. Lambda's normals are underrated. 2C jump cancel is pretty basic stuff. Amateur mix-up really =/

Sorry for being a douche but if american pros can't handle Lambda's crappy melee/mixup game (and I'm sure, or at least I hope, most of them can) than there's a lot of room for improvement.

Don't bash on me please. I was playing aggressively on purpose there. Usually it's zone until there's an opening for melee. The Lambda was his sub. It doesn't matter if he's good or not. I was trying to demonstrate what Lambda can do. And that is a great Ragna. Please stop insulting people.

I wasn't trying to bash you, and I saw no indication of you doing that on purpose, so I jumped to a conclusion.

And it does matter if a player is good or not.

Of course Lambda can perform all those blockstrings and mixups you demonstrated, it's part of the game, the question is whether she should do it in the first place, to which I personally answer with a big no.

But if you opponent knows that there are a lot of openings in her strings then he would exploit them to his advantage, unlike an unexperienced player that just resorts to blocking due to his lack of knowledge.

And I disagree with being poked out of pressure. 5B > 6A > 6B > TK feint. Almost guaranteed your opponent is going to block. Or 5B > 6A > 5B > 2B > 6B into whatever you want. Unless you're Tager, you're probably not going to be able to punish that.

These are safe strings, and when your'e applying pressure they are just fine until the point you decide to TK feint. No matter the situation a TK feint is never safe, it's a good tool nonetheless, but it's a tool to be used sparingly.

And what punish does Tager have that cant be done by others? (talking about IB 720?)

[Overheat]

Yeah IB 720's. Some people can't punish as well as Tager. No-one's really used to melee Lambda, and the feint is a question of whether or not it's a feint or a legit TK. Unless you're Tager, who can sledge through TK's anyways.

I'm uploading 16 matches right now. It'll take a while, but there's some good opponents there. TK's or TK feints I use for resets typically. I don't see what's wrong with them in a casual setting. Now, if one was a pro, then everyone would know what strings he likes to use, etc. In which case, instead of 2B > 6B > TK / TK feint, you would do 2B > 6B > IAD back. The point I was trying to make was that unless you've fought over 50 matches with me, you're not going to stand a chance against the mix-up unless you're fond of IB 5A's.

Sorry for getting salty =O I wasn't saying melee Lambda was better than zoning Lambda or anything like that. But to be a great Lambda, you should learn how to play both. Typically I wouldn't even rush-down Ragna. But that was Rin asking me to do some TK feints, so I obliged. It's just zone until you get a 236D, or your opponent whiffs and lets you come in for melee.

[tuka]

Yeah IB 720's. Some people can't punish as well as Tager. No-one's really used to melee Lambda, and the feint is a question of whether or not it's a feint or a legit TK. Unless you're Tager, who can sledge through TK's anyways.

720 is 5 frames, like a lot of 5A's in the game, so anything it can punish they can as well.

Not including jump frames, Crescent Saber has 17 frames of startup (12 for feint), that's A LOT of room for punishment.

Also take in mind that 5B is -1, 6B is -6 and 2C is -9. Unless you jump back or jump and block than they're not so safe, even worse if they get IB'ed, so TK's are a risk.

And no one is used to a melee lambda because she wasn't meant to be played like that, and even when she does it's far easier to counter than a true melee character.

I'm uploading 16 matches right now. It'll take a while, but there's some good opponents there. TK's or TK feints I use for resets typically. I don't see what's wrong with them in a casual setting. Now, if one was a pro, then everyone would know what strings he likes to use, etc. In which case, instead of 2B > 6B > TK / TK feint, you would do 2B > 6B > IAD back. The point I was trying to make was that unless you've fought over 50 matches with me, you're not going to stand a chance against the mix-up unless you're fond of IB 5A's.

In high level play it's only natural for you opponents to know your general gameplan and blockstrings, one of the traits of a good player is knowing when and how to to use which one while at the same time keeping the opponent within a mindset of uncertainty. Being predictable is always bad.

The point I was trying to make is that no matter how many times I (or any decent player) faces a melee Lambda, he would stand against her mixups and melee pressure with ease, because they are lacking compared to the rest of the cast, and weren't meant to be relied upon so heavily, you are playing an obvious zoning character after all.

FYI, I'm very, very fond of IB's

Sorry for getting salty =O I wasn't saying melee Lambda was better than zoning Lambda or anything like that. But to be a great Lambda, you should learn how to play both. Typically I wouldn't even rush-down Ragna. But that was Rin asking me to do some TK feints, so I obliged. It's just zone until you get a 236D, or your opponent whiffs and lets you come in for melee.

Pretentiousness aside, I consider myself to be a good Lambda, I know how to play both melee and zoning, and yet personal experience against players of equal level has taught me that it's just not the way she was meant to be played.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with trying to spice things up with a melee rushdown... once in a blue moon. Although you have much better alternatives.

Oh and "It's just zone until you get a 236D"... I hope it was a typo, that move is useless

[Overheat]

Haha, you'll be surprised at who'll sit and block a 236D if you condition them. The uploading is taking really long =P

Here's my example. It translates loosely. I'm playing offline, and I start IB'ing Litchi's pressure. The Litchi knows I'm going to IAD away, or 214A. They stance cancel and my DP is wasted, or I'm safe unless they did an air-unblockable and I didn't barrier. So the Litchi punishes my punish.

Another example. Ragna is doing close up pressure, and sees that Tager starts IB'ing. Expecting an IB 720, the Ragna jumps, and wastes Tager's 50 Heat punish.

The people I fight either learn to punish something, or they block it. If they learn to punish, it's my job to punish their punish, and so on and so on. Lambda melee is more for mind games and resets for me, more than anything.

By the way, are you in USA or Canada? West / East coast? It's always nice to fight some good Lambda mirrors.

[tuka]

Haha, you'll be surprised at who'll sit and block a 236D if you condition them. The uploading is taking really long =P

Here's my example. It translates loosely. I'm playing offline, and I start IB'ing Litchi's pressure. The Litchi knows I'm going to IAD away, or 214A. They stance cancel and my DP is wasted, or I'm safe unless they did an air-unblockable and I didn't barrier. So the Litchi punishes my punish.

Another example. Ragna is doing close up pressure, and sees that Tager starts IB'ing. Expecting an IB 720, the Ragna jumps, and wastes Tager's 50 Heat punish.

The people I fight either learn to punish something, or they block it. If they learn to punish, it's my job to punish their punish, and so on and so on. Lambda melee is more for mind games and resets for me, more than anything.

By the way, are you in USA or Canada? West / East coast? It's always nice to fight some good Lambda mirrors.

No one ever sits and blocks 236D, at the very least no one I know of.

Also, why would anyone just IB > something out of the blue? There are very specific moves that you can punish after an IB, namely moves that can't be canceled or punishes between unsafe strings (Bang can Daifunka between Lambda's 2C > 6C for example).

About where I live, try farther, like middle east farther.

[Overheat]

I don't think too much about the moves, I just IB. Unless it's Litchi or Rachel, I won't recognize strings too well, but it's not too hard to IB and get away. I'd actually rather try to bait Daifunka (RC it if he does Daifunka), and then it's huge damage if you're in the corner. Offline, no one really blocks 236D. Very rare. In fact, I hardly use it offline, but I do fight Litchi offline. Obviously you would punish moves that can't be j.cancelled etc.

What's your final point? There are disagreements everywhere =/ It's not like I don't get what you're saying. It just seems like you play a much safer Lambda. It's fine to play safe, but when there's an opening, I will close in. I find it hard to believe that I'm just fighting people who can't IB and punish. More likely they're trying to play safe. If I'm focusing on blocking and I have low health, for example, blocking takes priority over IB. Otherwise you could mess up etc.

The most obvious example of why it is viable, and risky to punish, is Pulsr. They aren't trying to punish, they're focusing on blocking his mix-up. Too bad he plays Mu now. We actually play quite similarly.

[tuka]

I don't think too much about the moves, I just IB. Unless it's Litchi or Rachel, I won't recognize strings too well, but it's not too hard to IB and get away. I'd actually rather try to bait Daifunka (RC it if he does Daifunka), and then it's huge damage if you're in the corner. Offline, no one really blocks 236D. Very rare. In fact, I hardly use it offline, but I do fight Litchi offline. Obviously you would punish moves that can't be j.cancelled etc.

IB'ing as much as you can is never a bad thing, you get meter and the option to escape after some moves; but when you want to retaliate you need to know exactly when to do so, else you'll just get out-poked, or simply blocked if your'e too obvious.

What's your final point? There are disagreements everywhere =/ It's not like I don't get what you're saying. It just seems like you play a much safer Lambda. It's fine to play safe, but when there's an opening, I will close in. I find it hard to believe that I'm just fighting people who can't IB and punish. More likely they're trying to play safe. If I'm focusing on blocking and I have low health, for example, blocking takes priority over IB. Otherwise you could mess up etc.

Final point? I'd say Lambda is without a doubt a zoning oriented character.

While zoning she has the maximum amount of strengths and minimum amount of weaknesses.

I indeed play a very safe Lambda; experience taught me, especially against the top tiers, that a mistake can easily cost me the round (whiffed sword against a closing Bang? GG man).

On the other hand, when there's an opening I will also close in and inflict every last point of damage I can possibly achieve.

Playing safe also keeps me calm and calculated, I can easily recognize mistakes and opportunities.

While watching some of your vids I saw (as I see with many rushdown Lambda's) that your fast paced style made you less concentrated resulting in a lot of dropped combos and missed opportunities.

Even if you like that style and want to keep playing it, I'd advise you to slow things down a little, and play on your opponent weaknesses while relying a little less on you rushdown melee play.

I mean, you were all rush-that-shit-down on Tager, that's a slippery slope.

[Overheat]

That's LostSoul. He literally plays better than some American pros I've fought. And Tager is a personal bad match-up for me, especially one as talented as LostSoul. By the way, I know Lambda is supposed to be a zoning character anyways. It's not recommended to rush-down certain characters, and whiffed D swords are 45-57 recovery, so it's a free get-in for the opponent. My main problem is that I'm a bit too aggressive sometimes. That's my own fault. The dropped combos are because of lag. No match of me online is perfect, so to speak, but it does get near there.

How does one explain the phenomenon that was Pulsr?

[Nakkiel]

That Ragna should've been 5A/5B/IDing you every time you did that feint, considering you were using it far too often. You don't even need to IB anything before it...

And what american 'pros' have you played? I'm very curious.

[Overheat]

That was Rin asking me to rush-down Ragna, as I said before.

Copperdabbit, MikeZ, some people who play offline at tourneys (not as well-known as Copper or Mike, but good in their own right). No disrespect to Mike, actually, it's a compliment to LostSoul, but I think they're both pretty good. MikeZ has the edge in experience, having fought offline competitively. I've forgotten some, but I'm basically comparing LostSoul to MikeZ.

What about Pulsr?

[tuka]

I'm very much reluctant to say so, especially on these boards, but what the hell-

Did it ever occur to you that pro american level isn't that...pro? :P

Anyway lets not dwell on this topic too much.

Ever seen Reria? Japanese guy played a crazy rushdown Nu, had it going good until Lambda (without god-tier-2C) came along.

All that awesomeness is now kinda worthless, by watching his handful of vids online I came to the conclusion that while playing rushdown hes losing more than ever.

I played once with unlimited Lambda (Nu) against my friends Bang, old 2C alone could probably take her to high A tier.

[Nakkiel]

I've never gotten to play Pulsr.

So what if he was asking you to do so? I would assume he wanted to learn how to deal with it and that's how he could've dealt with it. TK Feint is never safe, ever.

[Overheat]

Did it ever occur to you that pro american level isn't that...pro? :P

Anyway lets not dwell on this topic too much.

I know. There are some online players who are as good as offline American pros. They just lack experience.

So what if he was asking you to do so? I would assume he wanted to learn how to deal with it and that's how he could've dealt with it. TK Feint is never safe, ever.

Disagree. Your opponent isn't the CPU. Mind games actually work. Our matches were specifically for the BBVlog, hence the senseless rush-down. It was lagging a bit, so I was forced to do relatively basic TK stuff.

Actually I was talking about offline, take in mind it's all in comparison to Japanese level.

Sometimes it's their job to do that. Not to mention they get the game earlier, and have a competitive scene. Shouldn't be a huge surprise IMO

[tuka]

Actually I was talking about offline, take in mind it's all in comparison to Japanese level.

[zreb]

"No swords Lambda" (given that that's how this conversation started) sounds startlingly similar to a game a friend of mine likes to play called "Kickumen..."

[Overheat]

"No swords Lambda" (given that that's how this conversation started)

No. It's been agreed that one should learn close and far combat. Too much melee is not viable for Japan play. It is for everything else. Zone until there's an opening, as I said.

Anyways, you guys won't change your mind, I won't change mine. Let's just drop it.

[zreb]

I was hardly insinuating that using no swords at all was a good idea. Does "Kickumen" sound like a good idea? ...

I wasn't making the comment to try and discredit your opinion of melee mixup or whatnot either, which is hardly a black and white matter :p

[Overheat]

I wasn't making the comment to try and discredit your opinion of melee mixup or whatnot either, which is hardly a black and white matter :p

Yeah I know. Don't worry. Kickumen is actually... nvm XD

[tuka]

Kikkoman makes soy sauce

/spam

[Nakkiel]

Disagree. Your opponent isn't the CPU. Mind games actually work. Our matches were specifically for the BBVlog, hence the senseless rush-down. It was lagging a bit, so I was forced to do relatively basic TK stuff.

I'd hate to burst your bubble, but you weren't playing mind games.