[AC] Johnny AC Discussion

[RedBeard]

I baleted the older thread because most of it was Pre-AC speculation stuff, I saved all of the useful posts made by Wim and others etc so people don't need to look through 20 pages of speculation to find something

[4r5]

Pote got huge hit box, yo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZsrRDZi9hM

[burningvigor]

Hey is this a glitch? This has happened to be several times vs people... I get a mist on them and throw a mist finer and THEY BLOCK IT. I lose a mist level 2 ;/ and try to mist finer them again and still blocked. Im guessing the game didnt recognize the mist layed on them but the graphics of it was still there? :8/:

[4r5]

I think it happened to me once. Before I go to NYC, or maybe after, I'll see if I can reliable reproduce this.

[Mitsurugi]

It happened more than once to a friend of mine and me. This bug was supposedly already in previous installment but I never encountered it. It seems to be triggered more frequently in AC. We had some discussion about maybe it is a glitch performed when one IB it and such, but it also happened with normal guard. I also had my mist disappear earlier than normal, only once or twice. For instance after a 214P, some short string(s) to lock the opponent grounded and build up the gauge then the mist is gone before the MF-K(2) connects. A similar bug is with Zappa's dog, a friend of mine timed perfectly the 2D trap (unblocable), but when we thought it would hit, I guarded it and we heard the specific noise of blocked level 6 move. We weren't able to reproduce any of those on purpose.

[4r5]

I guarded it and we heard the specific noise of blocked level 6 move.

Did he accidentally cancel into the Dog Bite from a previous Dog attack? 'Cause Dog Bite as a second attack is a blockable level 6.

[burningvigor]

Probably just a glitch where the game doesnt see the mist on them. Cause after the level 2 got blocked, the level 1 got blocked right after.

[Mitsurugi]

4r5 > Good to know, thanks ! That's surely what happens. Silly us, my friend and I weren't aware of that (he was just toying with Zappa, not his main). BurningVigor > Yep, that seems to be it. Since it is already in the game, let us just hope it stays sporadical and random meaning it can't be formalized, made on purpose, a la Faust's OD 236236S. Quick reminder, there used to be a specific timing always resulting in the angel popping up, which is what Faust doesn't want. Or that it can be fixed for the next version (US GGAC maybe ?).

[CrimsonDisaster]

I dunno if there's any real rhyme or reason to the blockable unblockable Mist Finer. I'll do the same setups over and over in matches and they'll randomly fail. Ironically, it's most common after a 1-hit Ensenga, and 1-hit Ensengas are worse in AC (and people are starting to see it pop up more often)... shrug AC JO sux lol

[JOFan]

why is it not possible to do a one-hit using RCed ensenga and combo into a lvl2 k finer into combo in the corner? i know the dmg is gonna be super shitty and the combo itself is retarded but hey... i was bored lo. anyways, while i was trying to do this in training mode the falling foe can tech instantly when i hit them with a lvl 2 finer...

[Camo]

why is it not possible to do a one-hit using RCed ensenga and combo into a lvl2 k finer into combo in the corner? (

Of course it's possible ! The timing to put Bacchus at Okizeme's opponent must be exact but It's not very difficult. To be sure not to fail, you can FRC the Bacchus.

[Mitsurugi]

Camo, I think JOFan means he wants to continue the combo (the opponent doesn't touch the ground and is juggled), not letting him fall and putting a 214P. I haven't tested myself, but maybe you have to put some fast ground hit(s) before, such as K, c.S, or 2P > c.S, before landing the level 2 Mist Finer mid (or also upper). Once again, it also depends on the character (weight, hitbox, specific stuff) and the height you land the 1-hit. For instance, if you do a 1-hit really high after a "triple jump" (kinda like MF-S(2), j.KS, dj.SH KJ FRC, falling dj.S, tj.KSDE), the opponent may be able to tech after the 1-hit. Near the ground, but tech nonetheless. I think it happened against light-weight Baiken, can't be sure of whom I was practising against. Besides, if you use RC to get the 1-hit, your opponent may not be as high above you as a normal 1-hit, meaning he will touch the ground earlier and you won't reach the floor before him.

[JOFan]

thanks for the feedbacks guys. adding a hit after rc one-hit works lo i was able to do throw into ksde rc, 5k, mf k lvl2, 6h, jk frc hs d, corner combo on baiken lo

[Camo]

You can also make combos like : Midscreen : 6K > MC > Jump K > S > D Ens RC > AirDash .... It's interesting to directly put the opponent in the corner. -6K > MC > Jump K > jS > jD > Ens RC > AirDash > jK > jS > jD > Ens (1hit) > Trap -6K > MC > Jump K > jS > jD > Ens RC > AirDash > jS > jHS > KJ FRC > Etc.. Of course, the 6K on start-up is an exemple and there are a lot of alternative.

[4r5]

Dunno if this is a stupid question or not, but I'm new to AC. Why is Johnny bottom tier, especially since he's got a very useful new move? I know they nerfed divine blade transport but past that it doesnt seem like much has changed.

From Slash to AC, a lot has changed with Johnny. Quick summation,

Slash Johnny: Big damage + mist setup, anywhere, off any hit, for no tension. Got a lot done for very little, while having very much.

AC Johnny: Less damage + worser mist setups, needing corner, off less hits, for more coins/tension. Got less done for more, while not having as much.

The nerf on Divine Blade is sad. But the nerf to Mid Mist Finer Lv2 is even sadder, followed by Jackhound.

I wouldn't call Killer Joker a useful move. Funny or tricky, sure, but 25% to restore doublejump/airdash is a bit pricey. KJ replaces DB in combos, but doesn't quite fill the same role that DB had outside of combos.

Why is Johnny bottom tier? Don't ask me. Check around here: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3217

I don't like fudging around with that stuff. Johnny is my business character. Knowing that the odds aren't in my favor doesn't help me. Knowing that I need to fight a certain way or do a certain thing does help me.

[EtherFang777]

Kinda getting a bit side tracked. Continuing this in the Johnny AC Discussion thread.

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?p=177308#post177308

Mmk, one last question in this vein: What tier was Johnny during Slash and why was he in that tier?

[Newjack]

From Slash to AC, a lot has changed with Johnny. Quick summation,

Slash Johnny: Big damage + mist setup, anywhere, off any hit, for no tension. Got a lot done for very little, while having very much.

That's pretty much it. He was a strong mofo and could easily destroy things off any hit. I believe he was either middle or an upper-mid character.

[4r5]

So I've been fooling around with dashing tkEnsenga. 41236569HS and dashing OD 632146569HS If you don't know already, you can cancel Johnny's forward dash at anytime in to a jump. It's just a tigerknee out of a dash, or in the OD's case, a jump install. If you do them fast enough, you hear the dash but don't see it. But you usually want to show them a little bit of the dash. I've been using these to counter people sweeping and/or poking me out of my dashes. And a dashing tkEnsenga is just really surprising to most people. An overhead is not something people look out for, when Johnny is dashing. Before I write these up in to the stickies, I want to give people more time to adapt against it. As well as giving myself more time to master it and incorporate it fully in to my game.

[Newjack]

that has own written all over it.

[Mitsurugi]

Looks nice ! Damn, it sucks not having access to the net and my PS2 at the same time. From which distance do you use the TK Ensenga version ? I admit I'm kind of skeptical about this one, its real usages. Could you elaborate on that one ? Is it possible to buffer the input so that you dash and perform the motion except the last direction and button and react accordingly to your opponent moves : - if he blocks/does nothing, you land > throw - if he tries a poke, you perform the last part (69HS) and get either the TK Ensenga or the OD ? That may be even better with a KJ FRC though the input makes it more difficult since it doesn't have a forward motion in it.

[4r5]

Ok, for example:

I do K-c.S-HS>MC. Now from here I can do a tkEnsenga, a random LMF, or I can dash back in. If I opt to dash back in, I can come in with a quick mid or a low, or I can walk an extra step and throw.

Now if I dash back in, people see the dash and start blocking low. People in general, if they choose to block, just block low when ever they see Johnny dashing. The current conception is that, at the start of Johnny's dash there is nothing to worry about, and at the end of the dash you only have to worry about a low/mid or a throw. For a person who believes this, a dashing tkEnsenga will hit them every time.

The aim of dashing tkEnsenga and dashing OD are to shake up the current meta-game: Johnny can't do anything dangerous mid dash. The way I envisioned these working is that once mastered it would no longer be safe to block low or poke at a Johnny, who is in mid dash. Which in turn should open people up more for lows and throws. It would introduce a threat, where previously there was no threat.

Is it possible to buffer the input so that you dash and perform the motion except the last direction and button and react accordingly to your opponent moves :

- if he blocks/does nothing, you land > throw

- if he tries a poke, you perform the last part (69HS) and get either the TK Ensenga or the OD

?

Absolutely. But do know that when it comes time to do the last direction and button, you either do it or you give up on it. The motion will of left the input buffer, if you second guess yourself, and you will have to rebuffer the entire thing if you see/suspect another opportunity.

Ideally we would do all our forward dashes as either 4123656(9HS)632146(9HS) or 63214656(9HS)632146(9HS)

That may be even better with a KJ FRC though the input makes it more difficult since it doesn't have a forward motion in it.

I fooled around with the idea when AC first came out, but I wasn't really thrilled with the results so I set it aside. A dashing tkKJ FRC has the same problems as a tkKJ FRC: Hits mid, difficult to hit crouching opponents, launches opponents in an unpredictably manner. You also have to be careful with the motion. You don't want to get a superjump when you tk it. And ideally you want to tk it forward, by doing 2149. But on the plus side, on block or whiff, for 25%, you are pretty much guaranteed safety. As opposed to RCing a blocked Ensenga/OD, or worse whiffing them. If you do ever hit with it, the usual BnB air combo will do near half life and is pretty easy to connect.

[Mitsurugi]

Thanks for the explanation !

Ideally we would do all our forward dashes as either 4123656(9HS)632146(9HS) or 63214656(9HS)632146(9HS)

Haha, piece of cake. *shrug*

I'm more fond of Wave Dashing into throw (after a K, c.S, HS > MC string for instance) but will try it out nonetheless, it has good potential. Being able to wisely do either dash OD/TK or WD can widen JO's possibilities.

Same thing goes for Wave Dash (or Double Hop, according to your initial distance) as you can JC it into instant DB (or maybe KJ but IMO you get too high) if you see/foresee a poke. Though it is no overhead as opposed to TK Ensenga and needs different spacing.

Or maybe, if it is not too complicated execution wise (important point in actual matches), from kinda far away, you can merge the two :

WD then dash > OD/TK Ens for even more confusion, if the opponent doesn't backdash or jump away and according to his move/attack, to trick him into poking you.

That makes even more options for Johnny, nice to know.

[render]

A random OD like that seems like a big waste of tension for something that hits mid. Dash > TK Ensenga seems pretty viable, as long as you have the tension to cover your ass if they block.

[4r5]

Well, it's not like you just do the OD all the time. You do the part of the motion, check to see if there's anything to OD. If there is, finish it up. If there isn't, drop it and do something else. Like when you are waking up, you always (or maybe just me?) buffer in the OD. When it comes time to hit HS, check to see if there is anything to OD. If there is, hit HS. If not, then block or wakeup throw or whatever.

[Mitsurugi]

Yup, as already stated, it is more a way to punish any incoming poke IF there is one. You dash and buffer it.

- Should the opponent freeze and block, you land and do whatever you want.

- Should he twitch and poke, you complete the OD motion and thanks to the invulnerability and fast startup of the OD, you nail him while his poke goes right through you (invincibility). Should you have done the TK Ensenga version on reaction, you'll be hit or it it will trade.

The example on JO's wakeup buffering the OD is a good comparison. I think many players do that (I often do it too) since it can act as a safe way of escaping a pressure should you see an opening. It works really well against people using a throw invincible move, Baiken's 6K, May's 5K, Order Sol's 6K etc. It is a way to ensure you do not throw random OD provided your eyes are sharp enough to see holes. Otherwise, back to blocking if it is a perfect meaty or 1F (Super ) Jump, backdash or whatever if it is a OD bait.

It is a kind of option select, not in the "press one button and get two different outcomes depending on wht your opponent do" meaning but you get the idea.

That be said, I can't seem to do the dash > OD. Is the OD triggered right in the middle of the dash or at the end ? Meaning at the apex of his leap, he suddenly stick back to the ground thanks to the OD animation ? I could do Slayer's Backdash Cancel, Dizzy's 2D > JC > Spike, but not this one, odd.

When not using Wave Dash, I'd use the OD version in dash > throw range and the TK Ensenga version as a bait, further than the OD one since you want to do it out of opponent's poke range but close enough for him to think at the end of your dash you'll get hit by the poke. Indeed one have to condition his opponent.

Or else, that is not on reaction but preemptive, sensing/knowing your opponent will poke during your dash and JC cancel it into TK Ensenga but without guarantee he'll really do that. It becomes a feint that can't be "option selected" since you'll have to perform it no matter what, too close to confirm the poke. It is no better or worse, it just has different use IMO.

Keep in mind my statements are only theory. In actual matches, I now find the confirm hard to do on the TK version. Maybe it will come with time.

Preemptive dash > TK Ensenga works fine on the other hand as it does not need any form of confirm and bears the same risks/follow-ups as regular TK Ensenga, what we should already be accustomed.

Don't know for the OD one since I can't perform it yet.