[AC] Johnny AC Discussion

[qwerty]

Much like the way David Sirlin has simplified some inputs in Super SF Turbo HD Remix to be easier, Arc System Works needs to do the same for Johnny. Doing so will give the player more room to concentrate on pressure and ...you know, fighting their opponent.

mist stance jackhound should just be D, and ensenga shouldn't have to be tk'd otg.

[render]

mist stance jackhound should just be D

QUOTE FOR DOUBLE TRUTH

and ensenga shouldn't have to be tk'd otg.

you mean there should be a ground command for a TK ensenga? That would be pretty slick.

I've mentioned this before elsewhere, but I think there should be an alternate input for mist canceling so you can do it like Order-Sol... That way it's always automatically the fastest possible MC.

*sigh* wishful thinking.

[JOFan]

Just a random comment on lvl3 pressures... 3/10 times when trying 2d > mc into string i somehow hold the Hs button for too long resulting earlier release of mf or kamei stance move....mabe i should switch out my stock hori button ;x and finally, how do u know if u've achieved the fastest speed possible? the coin counter not showing up doesnt necessary means its the fastest eh?

[Chomite]

Just a random comment on lvl3 pressures... 3/10 times when trying 2d > mc into string i somehow hold the Hs button for too long resulting earlier release of mf or kamei stance move....mabe i should switch out my stock hori button ;x

and finally, how do u know if u've achieved the fastest speed possible? the coin counter not showing up doesnt necessary means its the fastest eh?

There were list of links that you can only do it if you did the fastest possible MC (in all LV). I know it's in Korean GG site somewhere but I'm sure I saw it around here as well.

[4r5]

How can you hold HS too long? Maybe you're pressing it too soon?

[Xaphiel]

I believe that if you can just tap K/S/P, and then press HS at the right time to mist cancel, then you know it's the fastest possible. So just tap K, S, or P instead of holding it, and if you still manage to cancel then you've done it as soon as you can.

[K2]

so much work in to lv 3 and 50% tension of JH combo to win i will try to play like that from now on, u guys are great

[qwerty]

I believe that if you can just tap K/S/P, and then press HS at the right time to mist cancel, then you know it's the fastest possible. So just tap K, S, or P instead of holding it, and if you still manage to cancel then you've done it as soon as you can.

i'll have to try this later.

though i have a feeling i'll just end up whiffing a lot of mist finers.

[K2]

i need some help on using 623s frc j66 jk (high) or land 2k as corner mix ups are there can block string i can do that with out getting aa or airthrow when i do 623s?

[10stars]

i need some help on using 623s frc j66 jk (high) or land 2k as corner mix ups

are there can block string i can do that with out getting aa or airthrow when i do 623s?

Normally I tend to use 421 transport over 623 in blockstrings, if you're going to FRC and apply pressure, assuming the persons blocking, i 421 > S > FRC > j.HS, land 3H then MC the 3h to continue pressure. Transport frcs alone arent that good for pressure from what ive found, so its better to use the killer joker transport (421) then killer joker frc (S > FRC from KJT) for pressure.

Not only that if you jump install in whatever chain you do before the transport, you can j.k then jump cancel the j.k

I've seen transport frcs alone used to go over a projectile here and there, but you have to know the projectiles coming in advance normally.

[Jo]

i need some help on using 623s frc j66 jk (high) or land 2k as corner mix ups

are there can block string i can do that with out getting aa or airthrow when i do 623s?

Yo'. A safe option would be to throw a coin before you do divine blade transport into your potential mix-up. Another one would be to knockdown in the corner, mist cancel and go from there. Just make sure you bait properly for wake-up uppercuts, supers and even dead angle attacks. Good luck.

[K2]

i guess is too much risk for small return.... kinda getting repetitive in my mc pressure string wt is the most effective way for me to do a dash throw after mc? and a better mix up from mc pressure? i am getting to a point that ppl just block low and wait for me to dash in throw and jump away. when i am a distance aprt they prepare for my tk ensenga =w= wt do u guys go to bait out 2p masher if i dash in?

[4r5]

If you think they are going to jump the next time you dash in for a throw, then dash in, then jump and airthrow them. If I think they are going to try to poke the next time I dash in, I tk.DB, tk.KJ, or OD. Alternatively, I space out my dashes (using blockstrings) so that they can't poke me. If they weren't looking at the details, the next time I dash in, their poke whiffs and I get a free hit. If, when I dashed in, they didn't poke, but they were still crouch guarding, then that tells me that they were paying attention. Maybe they were paying so much attention to trying to poke my dashes, they won't see this ensenga coming. Just a small example. The way I see Johnny pressure, it's not about looking for opportunities to land a mixup. Johnny's mixups are expensive and risky. It's about feeling out your opponent and getting inside their head. This way you don't need mixups, you just hit them. Or, at the least, you keep yourself safe.

[10stars]

i guess is too much risk for small return....

kinda getting repetitive in my mc pressure string

wt is the most effective way for me to do a dash throw after mc? and a better mix up from mc pressure? i am getting to a point that ppl just block low and wait for me to dash in throw and jump away. when i am a distance aprt they prepare for my tk ensenga =w= wt do u guys go to bait out 2p masher if i dash in?

2S MC dash tick throw works really well, coin dash throw works, its hard for them to poke or jump out of the throw because its during the block stun that you dash. 2k dash tick throw works well too. Learning the 6k FRC is a very nifty tool for throws, 6k used too much can end up having you thrown out of it, but if its used very sparingly and here and there its frcd into a grab you'll have some nice setups for 25% tension.

Remember that you can take any move you can JC and turn it into a tk ensenga, for example 5K > 5©.S > jump cancel ensenga. If theyre deciding to block high when you're just in range for ensenga to hit, try throwing a low mist finer out. after eating a few lmfs tk ensengas/lmf juggle should be nice for a bit. The only problem with this is that low mist finer lvl1 can be reacted to, and it is easily punished if blocked. On the other hand, if you have a level 2 its much harder to react to, so them trying to block a tk ensenga can end up being them eating 200+ damage. If you're applying pressure in the corner and they jump away from your dash grabs, the next time you know theyre going to jump, cancel your dash into a jump and air throw them, in the corner it allows for the wall bounce > 5k > coin or wall bounce > 5k > mmf2 for the enkasu loop.

If people are 2p mashing normally i throw coins randomly instead of a mist cancel, that way theyre forced to block during the entire chain (Assuming it isnt someone like slayer who can BBU through coin pressure, but in that case slayer cant really 2p spam all that well anyway) Be safe with your coins and try not to throw them all away, after 1-2 coin throws instead of mist cancels you can normally scare someone and get away with mist cancel dashing once or twice before reverting back to coins. Remember that your dust is slow as all hell, but the end frame advantage is 0/0 for both players, so you cant be punished for it unless its instant blocked or slashbacked. Remember that these are for the most part just tricks, someone can react to your mist cancel and still spam 2p if they arent all that threatened.

3H 5H 6H 2S 5K 5c(S) 2D are all good for mist cancel pressure. I advise against 5(f)S because it tends to whiff on alot of characters that are crouching, and that whiff can lead towards you being punished. 6K isnt that bad for pressure, however if someone can react to it you can be thrown out of it, and being thrown out of your pressure into a corner is one of johnnys worse nightmares. Its alot of tension, but if you do it correctly its a guaranteed cranked guard bar from what ive found. If you're somewhat deep and you can get a 3H blocked > 3H(2) KJT > KJ FRC > j.HS > land > 3H(2) KJT > KJ FRC > j.HS > land 3H. Its 50% tension but its a full flashing guard bar, and if you started it with 100% tension you can turn that last 3H into a MC tk ensenga RC land > insert combo here.

I've been messing with my pressure alot lately, as far as pressure goes, johnnys isnt the tightest unless he's at lvl2 or lvl3 (and still isnt the tightest then), but its still doable, you just have to find a flow of strings that works for you.

Edit: 4r5 is right, mixups from johnnys side are high risk, moderate reward.

[4r5]

New Age of Heroes

Going straight to Lv3, sitting on your Mist Level and tension, then blowing it all on that last round-ending combo definitely seems the way to go. You spend less time running all over the place trying to rebuild your mist level and tension and more time with fearsome Lv3 MistCancels and meter to threaten with OverDrives. Oh, and you have more coins to throw around, since you're only going to Lv3, once.

I guess this is goodbye, all my pre-AC strats, tacts, and gimmicks.

[10stars]

Going straight to Lv3, sitting on your Mist Level and tension, then blowing it all on that last round-ending combo definitely seems the way to go. You spend less time running all over the place trying to rebuild your mist level and tension and more time with fearsome Lv3 MistCancels and meter to threaten with OverDrives. Oh, and you have more coins to throw around, since you're only going to Lv3, once.

I guess this is goodbye, all my pre-AC strats, tacts, and gimmicks.

hmm?

Edit: dunno man, that leaves it to having to be 100% offensive with johnny, characters can still avoid his pressure with reversals, its impossible to predict every movement. Plus, after someone sees it the first time, theyll save their burst for that terrible moment where theyre about to get hit by the big combo. Plus, you really need a flashing bar to screw someones day up that bad. The gimmicks and everything still have uses!!!!!!!!! Even if you did just go for the big l3 combo and punish with tension, you still have to use some gimmicks for the first two coins :x

[4r5]

Oh, lol, just spotted your edit. You don't' have to be 100% offensive. I know I wasn't when I was trying out this new paradigm. Obviously, if they have a burst, I'm not going to blow my load. If they wanna keep their burst for the kill-combo, that's fine by me. But if I want to take their bursts, ML3 and my saved up tension will give me more options to bait them with. Flashing bar combos certainly make make people feel as though they should of just stayed in bed, but realistically you only need them to block a single HardSlash, or two. It's not like I'm hacking away at a full life bar. The gimmicks are dead. The change over to AC actually killed all my pre-AC gimmicks. The situations just don't arise anymore, or the moves don't exist anymore. I also use the term loosely. (Or maybe I just don't know what gimmick means?) A lot of what I do, people call gimmicks. They're obviously aren't gimmicks if people consistently get hit by them. But I sometimes like to keep calling them gimmicks. It's meta-gaming. I call them "gimmicks", you don't want to get hit by "gimmicks", you try to avoid the "gimmick" and now you've left yourself open to something else. Really I'm just trying to start over with Johnny on a clean slate. There's all this stuff I want to do with Johnny, but he just plain doesn't have it anymore. So there was always this nagging feeling in the back of my mind, "Why are you still playing Johnny?". And you can't play a character well, when all your mind isn't devoted to winning. The past semester, I think I played enough Street Fighter 2 (and combo-less Venom) that I can let go of what Johnny use to be and appreciate what Johnny is now. I'm starting to get that itch back. (But Venom is still really fun, so maybe I'll double-main)

[10stars]

Eh, not that ive placed high in any tournaments yet (17th at NEC, 7th at ACT and i would have placed in the mid 20s at SB3 if the tournament actually finished) but, everything i've read here has given me the edge to win the matches I've won. That and watching videos nonstop. I dont get to practice against people much, so alot of the time i go into tournaments with no matchup experience, but knowing what beats what, seeing how players react to suzume and bleed, and watching your videos i pick up on everything and have a gameplan for alot of stuff. Anything I've done thats 'good' has been from reading what you say, watching videos and learning from other players. No one really uses the same gimmicks all the time, there's new stuff tossed into the mix here and there, so since i dont have time to really make my own im a mix of a ton of players.

As far as going for the L3 combo, it seems to be rare as far as johnny fights go. But even if you decide to play like that, or i decide to in the future, i think we'll both find that it isnt that effective most of the time, and you have to rely on tricks here and there. Suzume is a fine example of what every johnny player should be in my opinion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mwIKWLShuU

Safe pokes, safe throws, still keeping a semi slash feel with DB crossups, throws the corner enkasu loop (mmf2 coin 6k mc is sexy, worth its weight in gold because of how easy it is to do). Even though the loop didnt go all the way through due to a burst, it made the aba waste a burst. Then he does crank a guard bar and land the L3mf combo. He's a strong mix of everything. And theres so few matches where i can say that about johnny players. DC is all coin pressure until he runs out, then he manages to struggle through alot of matches by outsmarting his opponent. Bleed is a mix with good pressure mixups throws and loops (tanbo match ftw) And i think ive only seen bleed go to l3 a few times in videos. Id like to see more jaw dropping moments where people eat a combo that deals 80%+, but i need to see it in action in order to really see it as a really good strategy, instead of a once in a full blue moon caught you off guard without a burst deal.

But then again, if no one tried new shit we'd all still be trying to play like its reloaded or slash, so i guess at elvenshadows tournament i'll see how it works out in casuals so i dont have to spend any of my tricks before the tournament.

Edit: double main? hell no, stick to johnny, alt venom! xD

[A3Religion]

Sorry guys I have a deep love for the ability to exercise your opinion about what you feel on this forum (which is the only real reason I still look at the forum). But I have to say something that has been on my chest for a long time. I know I'm going to catch a lot of rebuttals and criticism for what I'm about to say but I'm about to exercise my right to the fullest right now: ......*Exasperated Gasp*........I think the Johnny player community has just been reduced to a bunch sing-along crybabies. I have a lot of respect for the guys on this site. The mods have done a great job for the most part, Its just that now it feels like a conversation typically goes like this: *guy 1*: I love Johnny enough not to quit him but he isn't capable of so many things. *guy 2*: I know me, too. Honest to God, I am not picking anyone out individually, but this is a trend that I believe is the reason why Western JOs are doing so poorly. Some players to a point even sound as if Johnny himself is the reason they can't win, which I think is damn near retarded. Its like being stuck in a hole and then complaining about being stuck in the hole with suggestion to get out of the hole being accompanied by "Well if it doesn't work, it's not really our fault for being put in this hole". On the same note, I can't say I haven't been guilty of this fact, and at times I have thought about quitting Johnny. Also I haven't been to a lot of outside of the state tourneys which doesn't make me as qualified as many (but it doesn't mean I won't take on anyone to compare the ability to use Johnny). Let us face it though Johnny is restricted in the way of defense, and limited in the way of offense, but he has massive amounts of potential, and that is what we have to aim for more often. I feel like the sooner we lose the negative connotations while giving helpful advice it will help boost the morale of the community. In no way, am I trying to conduct the way people act but I feel it would be a great gesture towards a come up. We need to show that Johnny is a more competent threat then most people care to acknowledge. Johnny is considered such a menial character that he isn't even in the Eddie matchups. In works in my favor though because I win most of my first fights with people off of the premise that automatically underestimate me for playing Johnny. Also it would be great if we as a community improved, so that in the next installment we would be greater in the overall. With nothing but the deepest respect for the Johnny Community, Thanks in advance A3. P.S. To show that I am not all empty words I will be making more trips out of state, to help spread some fear. I will also start on a painfully thorough tutorial for Johnny (and I really mean thorough). Hopefully with the help of my fellow partners in beasting.

[10stars]

If it werent for Johnny players complaining about Johnny, there wouldnt be players like me, you, 4r5, etc etc etc, telling those Johnny players that they arent doing well because they're doing ____ wrong, not because of the character. Because of the complaints, we have more knowledge about our character sitting around on the forums, where alot of character threads have almost nothing. Jam forums for example, theres SO MUCH that isnt listed about jam expert play on the forums. Hell yeah, its harder to win as johnny, and yeah - you have to think more than your opponent. But at this point, everyone who's actually serious about maining him understands that within the first few minutes of reading around here. And i think majority of what can be put in any guide can be found here by searching, or i would have started uploading the stuff in my notebook. There's tricks that can still save people, but for some reason Johnny players dont put theory behind things then try them. Johnny is capable of most of what the cast is when he's given the opportunity. Unblockable into unblockable into unblockable - yeah, harder to do and requires a corner and a limited supply of items - yeah, but he can do it. Overhead crossups that are decent - yeah, provided the setup happens midscreen. The ability to rock someones healthbar in one combo - yeah, give him the tension and a crouching opponent, or a cranked guard bar. Ability to crank a guard bar - check Ability to mix someone up with highs and lows? No - not check, instead he was given a great throw game imo. DB FRC j.h > 2k > 5©S ensenga can be changed into DB FRC j.H land throw, DB FRC j.h > 2k > dash > throw, DB FRC j.k > j.s > 2d MC > throw, DB FRC j.k > j.s > 2k whiff > dash > throw. The list is almost endless, why mix someone up with highs and lows, if you can make them shit their pants and stand there while a throw happens. Crossup KJT for the unexpected blockstring into 'wtf' The ability to zone safely is a problem, long distance poking is an issue as well, but thats something Johnny players have to overcome. The Johnny community needs to learn that even though johnny doesnt have the best matchups, in the states there's a ton of players that have little to no johnny experience, little to no experience with a character that makes options for tick throws in every blockstring, and still has more threatening damage once a coin is landed than characters. His firepower isnt bad, his mixup game is decent, his throw game is A- on a bad day. He doesnt have the best matchups, and defensively he doesnt have an answer to absolutely everything, but he does have an answer to majority of things that can head his way. And from my seeings at tournaments and casual gatherings, a Johnny who's winning is getting more respect than any other player running around. Johnny matches still give that "wow" feeling at the end of them if he's played well, where alot of other characters get that nice old "eh, its been done before" look. Tricks that are new, things that can confuse people, they have the biggest advantage on people who fight tons of eddys baikens pots slayers jams sols and kys, even if they adapt to something quickly, there's probably stuff laying around that hasnt been thrown at them.

[A3Religion]

Thank you, my fine sir. I do think though that he has a better mix up than most people take into consideration. Ask anyone I have played they will tell you. Not to sound like a pompous ass, but most of what I learned was from years of trial and error. Though I do have to give credit to 4r5 for the couple of tactics I did take from the forums.

[10stars]

Most of the gimmicks or traps i figured out were pretty much just changes from 4r5s 2k > dash > throw tactic. Changing it with a coin into a 6k frc or a coin into a KJT throw makes it more confusing. I'm going to be updating the hell out of the how to hit people thread, if you need any help with a Jo guide message me and i might be able to help.

[A3Religion]

Sounds lucrative.

[Nattak]

Johnny could do lots of lots of cool combos, with 1-hit ensenga enders, DB knockdown, or just plain damage. Wich ones would you find usable in matches ?

[Killerwatt]

Johnny could do lots of lots of cool combos, with 1-hit ensenga enders, DB knockdown, or just plain damage. Wich ones would you find usable in matches ?

Since I am not 100% with enkasu setups yet I try to go for the biggest damage using KJ FRC in air combos. Most times I do blah blah -> KJ FRC -> jS, jK, jD Ensenga or KJ FRC -> jHS Divine Blade for knockdown. As for the ground, I've become fond of (in corner) L2MFM -> 6HS -> That's My Name when I see that I have > 50% tension. It does decent damage and looks really cool, but I'm pretty sure Johnny could do better things in the corner for 50% meter. Oh well, sometimes I like to place aesthetics over practicality